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For players looking to build a BR with MTTs (long)

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  1. #1

    Default For players looking to build a BR with MTTs (long)

    This is my first crack at a write up with some type of value. I have noticed a lot of questions regarding how to build BR playing strictly MTTs. I would say that I am no where near an authority on this subject. However, this is something I have done and fairly recent. So I thought I would list some things that I think might be able to help beginning players looking to accomplish the same thing I have. Here we go...

    Bank Roll Management

    This is something that has been touched on many times before and in much more depth than I plan on going. Most players recommend a 100-200 buy in rule. While this is great once you have a BR getting there can be some what of a challenge. Ill be honest and say that I was lucky to gain a BR using this type of strategy but I also had money in the bank and could reload if needed.

    I started out with $50 and played the $4.40 180 man non turbos and large field $1-$2 MTTs. To me, what was important was actually having a shot at gaining a real BR. I didn't want to be stuck playing 10c tourneys but I also wanted to start out slow so I could properly relearn the game. So I figured I could take a calculated risk to get some cash flowing. This advice was given to me by a player many levels above me: “There is no pride in grinding to a BR”. Sure, you get to pat yourself on the back for a job well done. But when your looking at your on-line account and you see $100, $200, $300 sitting in there. You feel like you put in a ton of work for not a lot of pay.

    So for me the risk of going bust was worth the reward. Note that I now use a 150-200 buy in rule for MTTs. The absolutely MOST important thing about MTT BR management is that you need to allow yourself plenty of buy-ins to learn how to play the game. If your just consistently going bust then your not doing something right. You need to study away from the tables to learn key concepts that will aid your BR in success. Having a 100-200 BR does nothing if you don't know how to play the game.

    Variance

    At the micros you need to do your best to understand variance and control your tilt. Tilt is defined by your emotions causing you to knock yourself out of a tourney or loose any amount of chips. If you are a tight aggressive style of player. Understand what this type of play style requires. Just because you bet doesn't make you aggressive and just because you only play QQ+, AK+ doesn't mean you are playing “correct”. A majority of micro players are either weak-rocks, loose-calling stations, or hyper aggressive.

    Your goal as a micro player should be to learn what type of style you are or at least understand why you enjoy playing the way you do. You cannot continue to think that just because you got knocked out of a tourney you played something incorrectly. As a good exercise, save every hand you busted out of in a day and then post all of those hands in a single thread as a nightly recap. Make sure to include why you played the way you did, what you think villains range is, and any reads you have.

    I got a little off topic, sorry back to variance. The fact of the matter is this: “Variance will always be higher at micro stakes”. But do you know why this is the case? Well, for starters no one knows what they are doing. FE or fold equity is a large part of the game as you move up in limits. This entire concept doesn't exist at micro levels. Save yourself the time and energy by just focusing on putting people on ranges and working on trying to understand odds.
    Another reason variance is higher is because you will end up all in a ton of the time. I wish I could say this one gets better but so far it has been the same. But yeah, you will end up with your tourney life on the line more often playing micro stakes because players just don't fold. Which is why I think playing the 180man non turbos are so great. The player pool is much smaller and in turn so is your variance.

    Ranges

    This is the most important concept micro stakes players never seem to understand. This is such an important concept that if you don't get it you will stay stuck in the micros. You have to understand that every player you play against plays multiple hands the same exact way. Let me rephrase that. Every villain you face plays multiple hands the same way in the same situations.

    So what does this really mean? Say the pot is 100 and your opponent bet 50 and your on the button. The flop is K 10 7 with no flush draw. What could villain be betting with here? Well if he had a K he would bet, his bet was semi weak so a 10 would bet, if he is looser then he could bet with 98, he could also have a pocket pair from 77 to AA. So villains range could look something like this (any pocket pair, AK, KQ, KJ, KT, T9, JT, QT, AT etc) which is 21 different hands he would make this bet with. See now how ridiculous is it to just say villain has AA? Another thing to note, I haven't even told you what your hand is yet and we are already able to put villain on a range.

    The point is, you don't need to know your cards to know what your opponents possible holdings are. Once you find out your villains range, plug it into poker stove. I wont go over poker stove because there are many better threads covering that.

    Being open minded

    This is another crucial skill needed to not only succeed out of the micros but to also become a much better player overall. You have to accept the fact that there is a reason why you continue to lose over and over again. You don't know what the answer is so you make yourself believe all these false proofs that have no merit what so ever. Its not poker stars fault, its not someone else playing poorly, its not the odds gods out to get you. Its that fact that you are more than likely a very close minded player. You convince yourself at the table that its the other person who sucks and thats why you lost. Or you get it all in pf and someone sucks out on you so you blame your poker site of choice. Or even worse yet, your the type who refuses to play a hand differently and even when the other player basically turns their hand face up its so obvious your top pair top kicker is beat. But yet you still call just to show that you were the favorite at one point and the other people are worse than you.

    These types are the hardest players to give advice to. Because they are so stubborn to the fact that they never ever want to be incorrect. When really thats the reason you chose to join sites like FTR in the first place. I can tell you first hand that I am a member at FTR, PocketFives, two video teaching sites, and I have a coach. I have plenty of faults that I am consistently working on every day and every chance I get. Reason being is that the people I ask advice for know what they are talking about and I don't.

    What good would it be to me if I was spending all this money, time, and effort to become a better player. Just to turn around and spit in their face? I mean they wouldn't care because I am paying them, my loss. But what if, what if they are right and their advice helps me to succeed at my goal? What if for just a month or a year, I shut up and applied every concept they told me about. I bet at the end of this process I would have learned a ton and my BR would be a bit bigger as well.
    So to wrap this section up. Keep your mind open or you will continue to lose. Poker is a game where everything can change by just one card. If you don't move with the game it will move around you.

    Understanding levels of thinking

    In one word, DONT. There are no levels of thinking done at the micros and no it wont make you a better player to apply them if learned. People bet what they have and sometimes bluff...thats it. Don't get tricky or go for massive check raises and such. The craziest you should get is learning how to maximize value and chip extraction.

    Final Thoughts
    These are kind of all over the place but I wanted to just give some thoughts on what I think are key concepts to understand while grinding the micros. Thank you for reading and please feel free to post any questions.

    edit: this was also my 600th post
  2. #2

    Default Re: For players looking to build a BR with MTTs (long)

    Quote Originally Posted by revolvingiris
    Final Thoughts
    These are kind of all over the place but I wanted to just give some thoughts on what I think are key concepts to understand while grinding the micros. Thank you for reading and please feel free to post any questions.
    ok first i want to say, great post, you clearly took time and effort vocalizing a good guide to beating micro stakes poker. I cannot get enough of those, and i am the typical player on this site that complains and complains and reads and reads but never actually applies it to his game (i am changing that as we speak)

    That being said, this seems more like a guide to beating micros than a guide to building a bankroll for MTT's, i know most of what you said applies to micro MTT's as well as other forms of micros, and i guess i don't really know what i was expecting, but ....gah...i feel so bad throwing this hate on the thread becuase i do appreciate everything you said, but i just was looking for something more MTT'y

    sorry
  3. #3
    Guest
    It's been 3 years i'm trying to build a BR on pstars and im just going up and down and up and down and after a couple suck out I just go tilt and lose even moRe.

    I like to adapt to the player I play, and use his bets because if there is one thing Ive learned in poker is that he needs to "understand" your raises otherwise its just wild gambling and hes gonna have a pair of 3 against my ace high.

    I like your strategy of starting off @ 4,40 MTTs for a better variance. You should get donked off a pot a lot less than micro tournaments.

    My global strategy is based about reads and my hole cards. Sometimes, playing my A-game, i can even find out he has K-5suited, following his bet pattern and bet timing. But even knowing he has K-5, he still can flop 2 pairs.

    What I really like is being weak tight and 1 bet bluff the flop. If flop shows too much chemistry I just check fold. But in the end im just shouting at my computer "no jacks ! no hearts !" and then I end up trowing my computer screen.

    For some reason, I just can't follow my instinct, and thats weird because 90% of the time my instinct is right.
  4. #4

    Default Re: For players looking to build a BR with MTTs (long)

    Quote Originally Posted by philly and the phanatics
    That being said, this seems more like a guide to beating micros than a guide to building a bankroll for MTT's
    But thats the problem...with out understanding the things I have posted. Your chances of building a real BR arent very good. I think the $4 180 mans are anyones best bet to building a roll coming from the micros.

    There is no set in stone way to make money in this game (other than long term math). I just tried to show what I feel would help new players get a better understanding of how to come to their own conclusions.

    My road may not be the best road for everyone. So I thought about how could I write something that everyone could benifit from.
  5. #5

    Default Re: For players looking to build a BR with MTTs (long)

    Quote Originally Posted by revolvingiris
    Quote Originally Posted by philly and the phanatics
    That being said, this seems more like a guide to beating micros than a guide to building a bankroll for MTT's
    But thats the problem...with out understanding the things I have posted. Your chances of building a real BR arent very good. I think the $4 180 mans are anyones best bet to building a roll coming from the micros.

    There is no set in stone way to make money in this game (other than long term math). I just tried to show what I feel would help new players get a better understanding of how to come to their own conclusions.

    My road may not be the best road for everyone. So I thought about how could I write something that everyone could benifit from.
    i can appreciate that, and don't get me wrong i do feel like i benefitted from reading it
  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by marijuanagaming
    It's been 3 years i'm trying to build a BR on pstars and im just going up and down and up and down and after a couple suck out I just go tilt and lose even moRe.

    I like to adapt to the player I play, and use his bets because if there is one thing Ive learned in poker is that he needs to "understand" your raises otherwise its just wild gambling and hes gonna have a pair of 3 against my ace high.

    I like your strategy of starting off @ 4,40 MTTs for a better variance. You should get donked off a pot a lot less than micro tournaments.

    My global strategy is based about reads and my hole cards. Sometimes, playing my A-game, i can even find out he has K-5suited, following his bet pattern and bet timing. But even knowing he has K-5, he still can flop 2 pairs.

    What I really like is being weak tight and 1 bet bluff the flop. If flop shows too much chemistry I just check fold. But in the end im just shouting at my computer "no jacks ! no hearts !" and then I end up trowing my computer screen.

    For some reason, I just can't follow my instinct, and thats weird because 90% of the time my instinct is right.
    Your problem is your trying too hard. Don't focus on having an A game because to be honest idk if you know what that means, no offence.

    Learn how to properly put people on ranges and understand pot odds. These are two concepts that will boost you in terms of your skill level.

    Your goal is not to win every hand you play in an MTT. You can try and you certainly should. But folding NEEDS to be in your arsenal.

    Think about your hand and how it fairs against all of the possible holdings your villain may have.
  7. #7
    Congrats on your 600th. I know how hard it is to write a coherent paragraph let alone a couple of pages. I read the article yesterday and re-read it today. Now, I have to say that I tend to agree w/ philly in that, apart from the section on BR Management, I can't quite see how it relates specifically to MTTs. I don't know much about MTTs and I feel I still know very little. I've read that MTT requires a larger BR than say FR but I didn't realise it was that big a difference (10 times as much?). Perhaps you could have explained a bit more about why that is so. Is it because of the very nature of MTTs themselves?

    Also, I've read that MTTs kind of morph as they go along, aka as the blinds increase. So your strategy needs to change as you approach the bubble. Is that right? Should I have expected to see stuff like that in a piece like this? Anyway, thanks and I look forward to reading your next 600 posts.

    ETA: My sig.
    Sound off like ya gotta pair!
  8. #8
    OK I have an idea. FTR has been such a great community to me and I really want to give something everyone can benifit from. Please list things in this thread that you want to read about or you feel hasent been touched on in another write up. Keep in mind I only play MTTs so questions geared to that would prob be best. Also keep in mind that I am no master at these. However, I do feel I have a lot to offer someone who is looking to move past the "im stuck at micros" stage.
  9. #9
    I had about $100 on tony g/games grid before they kicked me out like 3 years ago cashed out down to $20 and have built back up to a little over $200...however like one of the last guys i'll go on a run of " bad luck " then go on tilt and lose more money...i've been playing the micros for the duration of the last few years minus the $100 HU I played for grins when I gave up and won hehe...anyhow back to the point..i've made like $50/yr grinding at the mircos...i'm going to give these $4 180 shot and let you know what happens... pretty good post though keep up the work
  10. #10
    Guest
    Dude, I certainly know what is a A-game. I've watched all fucking youtube poker videos, from wsop to aussie millions to durrr online gaming and I've been playing a lot these last 3 years.

    Nevertheless, I know I have some problems.

    In a live tournament or playing with my friends I just fucking own, the only thing that kills me is things like QQ vs AA. But somehow I play different online and I have some sort of a hard time to make the same plays. Also, online I fold way too much, I usualy just fucking miss my pots and then go in retarded gambling situation like QQ (hero) vs KJ vs A10 in a all in preflop witch I lose most of the time when this feeling gets into my stomach. Each time when I get this feeling inside me and it says "you, right now, are gambling" the guy gets the card he needs all the time. So I try to follow this feeling, but i just can't follow it and can't fold those kings when the feeling is there.

    Today for exemple,

    5 folds, I have 3-5 offsuit, i open the pot for 3 times the blinds, gets reraise all in and a stone call. I fold. Woulda won against AK if I would have called.

    Or, 98 offsuit, 8 calls. Flop J-7-7. I felt it a lot preflop but I just folded to his all in on the flop, but the turn was a 10.

    And, to me a A-game is betting when you are ahead, folding when you are beat and maximizing value with the nuts. Being in the zone helps, like when you take down a few small pots it helps me to relax a bit and fold for a while.
  11. #11
    First let me say good post.
    4.40s may not the best place for beginners to start to build a roll. Starting at 50$ gives you only 11 buyins. If you are a new player and this is your first 50$, i just dont think its good place to start. If they are fairly inexperienced 11 buyins may not even get them ITM once. they would need to play somewhere within thier roll to understand a lot of the concepts you posted. 11 buyins likely not gonna be enough to learn. IF the money is not an issue, and the player is somewhat experienced then 50$/4.40s is a good way to go. I think it would be better that they study up and have a decent understanding of everything you talked about before trying to build a roll this way.
    “There is no pride in grinding to a BR”. for some there might be and with grinding comes a learning process. many will need that process to understand you. You played before you built from your 50$.
    Good post but its more like skills necissary to build a roll at micro MTTs.
    just my thoughts
  12. #12
    Variance will always be higher at micro stakes”

    Change it to “Variance increases as you move up in stakes"
  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Outlaw
    Variance will always be higher at micro stakes”

    Change it to “Variance increases as you move up in stakes"
    ^^^ and nice post - i like seeing you newer regs putting together these epic "what I've learned so far" posts - i believe they really help our new players tons
  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Outlaw
    Change it to “Variance increases as you move up in stakes"
    This I didnt know. I felt like variance was way worse at micros than at the limits I am at now.

    Can someone explain why as we move to bigger buyins our variance increases?
  15. #15
    settecba's Avatar
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    Variance is higher as you move up in stakes because your oppponents are better and your edge is smaller. This means you will find yourself in less situations were you are a clear favorite. Instead your +EV moves will have you as a favorite, but with a smaller edge. Thus, your variance will be higher.

    When you say “Variance will always be higher at micro stakes”, I think you actually mean "You will suffer a lot of bad beats at micro stakes", which is obviously not the same thing.
  16. #16
    Bad beats are a part of variance...Which is why I was surprised to see that our variance increases as we move up. But I guess TBO I shouldn't speak on variance at all being I have a small sample size.
  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by revolvingiris
    Bad beats are a part of variance...Which is why I was surprised to see that our variance increases as we move up. But I guess TBO I shouldn't speak on variance at all being I have a small sample size.
    People "give away" their money a lot less as you move up. At low stakes you can sit around and wait for the fish to shift their stacks to yours. At mid to high stakes you have to go out and earn it a lot more often.
  18. #18
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by revolvingiris
    Bad beats are a part of variance...Which is why I was surprised to see that our variance increases as we move up. But I guess TBO I shouldn't speak on variance at all being I have a small sample size.
    actually bad beats are a part of winning and are generally a small part of your losses/wins
    variance is when you flop a set and another reg flops a bigger set
  19. #19
    I always thought wins, losses, bad beats, suck outs, etc were all variables of variance?
  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by revolvingiris
    I always thought wins, losses, bad beats, suck outs, etc were all variables of variance?
    Hmm, I thought the same thing.
  21. #21
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by revolvingiris
    I always thought wins, losses, bad beats, suck outs, etc were all variables of variance?
    yes, but we're talking about what gives you more variance, playing in a game where you get it in good every time and get bad beat from time to time, or playing in a game where you get it in as a flip vs. someone's range and run into the top of their range

    example: at NL2 you'll get it in with TPTK vs. the drooler that will felt TPNK, and fold to the passive fish's raise on the flop with the same hand
    at NL100 you'll get it in with TPTK on a drawy flop vs. a reg and he'll either have a draw or a set

    at NL2 you're going to experience "bad beats" because the guy's K2 will river a 2 to beat your AK on a K high flop
    at NL100 bad beats are not going to be common because you're either a 65% favorite or about a flip vs. a combo draw or drawing to runner runner vs. a set

    so while there are going to be numerous bad beats at NL2 because you're always getting it in good, you're going to have much higher variance at NL100 because you're about a flip every time you get it in with regs (although if you play better than them you'll probably either get more value bets in or make them fold more)

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