opening AQ utg in Full Ring micros - my reasoning now added

I'm interested in decent, detailed reasoning on why/why not to open AQ from under the gun in 5nl Full Ring. I'm not as interested in why/why not in 100nl+ - although the same reasoning applies..

This question was asked in IRC, and from the comments made there it would appear that most micro players trying to move up the stakes-ladder would gain a lot from attempting to provide a coherent explanation on their default play with AQ utg, and any variations on this default. They would probably also gain a lot from reading the reasoning of other players, noting where their reasoning differs, thinking about that, etc.

Go.


edit - i've added my reasoning on this - it's near the bottom of the thread.

I open AQs/o for stats.

I always open UTG w/ AQ either suited or not.

The players at 5nl usually fall under 3 catergories:
1) Super nit - So I have a great chance that they will fold unless they wake up with great hole cards which doesnt happen enough for them. So I dont mind opening this hand at all against them.
2) Limp Tighties - their stats usually fall around the 25-35/0-5/.5-1.5. Even if they only call my raise with their top 15% range, I am still a favorite. Pokerstove tells me I'm a 56.5 - 43.5 favorite. cbetting works well against them b/c they very rarely float when they miss unless they are on a draw. So again, I think there is money to be made against them.
3) Maniacs. They run 45+/20+/3+. They overplay their cards and raise with cards that arent useful imo so against their calling range I should be a huge favorite. Only problem is if I miss, I tend to not cbet them much and I hope to see a cheap showdown.

I think when you start opening AT or AJ, your equity against a typical limp tighty who calls w/ 15% of their range starts to become more of a wash. So I fold these unless the table is nitty, in which case, I should be finding a new table anyways!

AQ = overrated. Not sure why people drool all over it unless they're Phil Hellmuth fans and live by his top 10 hand chart.

We are opening AQ utg because most of our oppoents ranges are dominated by our hands and our hand is dominated by 16 less hand combinations than AJ would be. We are only dominated by AK or AA, KK, yet we stil l have outs against KK. And the type of flops that are good for our hand are high card flops. AQ can connect with the flop and give you a lot of TPTK type hands, draws to straights and flushes if suited. Our opponents likely calling range is a lot weaker then our opening range.

For example if someone calls with KQ and the flop comes Qxx, we are likely to get their stack and they do not have very many outs to draw to. We have all of the weaker Q's dominated. If it came Axx we have all of the weaker A's dominated. So we are generally ahead of many opponents calling ranges. As you start going down the list such as AJ well, AJ is dominated by much more hand combinations. Were as AQ is not.

So we can extract value from the weaker kings and weaker aces when we do hit the flop. Also having AQ makes it less likely someone will have QQ or AA, so on a A or Q high flop we are likely ahead of all of the Q's because it's fairly slim someone will have AA or QQ and we will possibly stack the weaker ones.

My two cents.

No one besides Warpe has mentioned "Shania" yet...

I like raising UTG with AQs on $10 and under anytime......for the reasons everyone has already mentioned.

it's the absolute very worst hand I will open with, but it depends on the table, if I'm surrounded by players who seem to know what they are doing I'm far less likely to open with it, and would rather fold in between looking for a better table.

But if it's filled with retards who call from MP with KJo and go waaaaay too far with hands like that, then I'm game.

Originally Posted by JustinSKS

We are opening AQ utg because most of our oppoents ranges are dominated by our hands and our hand is dominated by 16 less had combinations than AJ would be. We are only dominated by AK or AA, KK, yet we stil l have outs against KK. And the type of flops that are good for our hand are high card flops. AQ can connect with the flop and give you a lot of TPTK type hands, draws to straights and flushes if suited. Our opponents likely calling range is a lot weaker then our opening range.

For example if someone calls with KQ and the flop comes Qxx, we are likely to get their stack and they do not have very many outs to draw to. We have all of the weaker Q's dominated. If it came Axx we have all of the weaker A's dominated. So we are generally ahead of many opponents calling ranges. As you start going down the list such as AJ well, AJ is dominated by much more hand combinations. Were as AQ is not.

So we can extract value from the weaker kings and weaker aces when we do hit the flop. Also having AQ makes it less likely someone will have QQ or AA, so on a A or Q high flop we are likely ahead of all of the Q's because it's fairly slim someone will have AA or QQ and we will possibly stack the weaker ones.n

My two cents.

we are a pretty big dog against qq....



but my reasoning for it being the absolute bottom of my range utg, is that you need your range to be that much stronger in order to make up for the position you lack playing utg. Like Justin says we are only a big dog to qq,kk,aa,ak, we hit a lot of tp type hands and what not.

but yea, i dont play any wider than that because w/ aj or a10 it is easy to be up against top pair better kicker and be put in some tough decisions.

Trying to say I open AQo for balance/shania/whatever is pretty silly b/c everyone assumes you have it in your range already.

Why is Shania even being mentioned? Didn't we distinctly say 5NL?

i'd say if you are a beginner (which are at 5nl you are) folding A-Qo UTG on FR as a default is quite a good idea.

what do you do when someone in MP flats as does the BTN? then an A flops.? When no A flops? do you c-bet into 2 players? do you B/F? B/C??? etc etc

what about if you're re-raised by BTN?

just opens up a load of probs for a 5nl playa imo.

i personally only play AQ off in mp and later. If you do insist on raising utg i think you must fold it against most all 3-bets. Anyway i'm fairly nitty utg and i only raise AKS/AQs and pairs .

Originally Posted by littleogre

i personally only play AQ off in mp and later. If you do insist on raising utg i think you must fold it against most all 3-bets. Anyway i'm fairly nitty utg and i only raise AKS/AQs and pairs .

in a couple more days i'm going to address all the posts/points made in this thread.
But, first, you open 22 but fold AQs utg. Interesting. Not that I necessarily agree or disagree, but would you care to go into detail on why?

Originally Posted by daven

Originally Posted by littleogre

i personally only play AQ off in mp and later. If you do insist on raising utg i think you must fold it against most all 3-bets. Anyway i'm fairly nitty utg and i only raise AKS/AQs and pairs .

in a couple more days i'm going to address all the posts/points made in this thread.
But, first, you open 22 but fold AQs utg. Interesting. Not that I necessarily agree or disagree, but would you care to go into detail on why?

Because he already has a pair and one pair beats high card ace obv. Postflop playability has nothing to do with it.

Originally Posted by daven

Originally Posted by littleogre

i personally only play AQ off in mp and later. If you do insist on raising utg i think you must fold it against most all 3-bets. Anyway i'm fairly nitty utg and i only raise AKS/AQs and pairs .

in a couple more days i'm going to address all the posts/points made in this thread.
But, first, you open 22 but fold AQs utg. Interesting. Not that I necessarily agree or disagree, but would you care to go into detail on why?

no he said AQo/AKo he folds, AQs he plays

Originally Posted by Warpe

I open AQs/o for stats.

Originally Posted by settecba

No one besides Warpe has mentioned "Shania" yet...

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

Trying to say I open AQo for balance/shania/whatever is pretty silly b/c everyone assumes you have it in your range already.

My point was/is that you should always be aware of your table image and what VPIP/PFR/AF stats you are presenting so while AQ can be tough to play in EP and you'll be dominated/folding it a lot to aggression, that's no reason to open fold it as a default play such as WillburForce is suggesting.

Originally Posted by BooG690

Why is Shania even being mentioned? Didn't we distinctly say 5NL?

I love how the lower the stakes the more dismissive players get of even semi-advanced thinking. It's important to start embracing and internalizing it. The point is to pwn the micros and move up isn't it? The only way that happens is to get better.

Shania is always important IMO, regardless of stakes.

Usually when forming a range you tipically start by adding hands that are +EV "alone". Then you keep adding hands that may very well not be +EV on their own, but add to the EV of the whole range. That is basic Shania concept. At 5NL, where people arent paying too much attention, adding hands that are -EV to a range for balance reasons will probably be -EV for the range as a whole. However, the important thing to keep in mind, is that when adding a hand to a range, the effect on the EV of the whole range goes beyond the EV of that particular hand. In this example, AQ is a hand that probably is +EV itself to open UTG, but it ALSO makes other hands in that range more profitable, having a ++EV effect.

I could be way off here, but thats what I was thinking about when I mentioned shania.

Being balanced is always important, sometimes for different reasons. Even when your opponents are unaware/non-thinking some of their tendencies will naturally exploit an unbalanced range. If you think deeper about these types of spots you might open your mind to some new ideas poker-wise.

There are some spots where we end up going for exploitation>balance and that's fine as well, first thing that comes to mind is overbet shoving river w/ the nuts when we'd never do that as a bluff against a fish.

Shania is always important IMO, regardless of stakes

Can anyone explain what this 'shania' thing is all about? I tried googling it and nothing came up

Well, I only open with 99+, AQs, AK utg... Is it too nitty?

AQo is 80% of the time in front and at those range people will call u with A8 or pop...

I'm not saying you should always be aggressive with AQ... but with a fishy table (which is 60% of your table under NL10) I suggest behind alittle more agressive then usual...

For the one who play AQs but fold AQo.... you're play is about 2,7% that important? You know your odds of flopping or hitting your flush... come on anyway all we want is *Blind, *Behind called by a worst hand...

As for your range Belt.... When I was playing those limits I was limping pocket 6 and under from UTG and raising 3,5 everything over 7's and A10s

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Originally Posted by daven

Originally Posted by littleogre

i personally only play AQ off in mp and later. If you do insist on raising utg i think you must fold it against most all 3-bets. Anyway i'm fairly nitty utg and i only raise AKS/AQs and pairs .

in a couple more days i'm going to address all the posts/points made in this thread.
But, first, you open 22 but fold AQs utg. Interesting. Not that I necessarily agree or disagree, but would you care to go into detail on why?

Because he already has a pair and one pair beats high card ace obv. Postflop playability has nothing to do with it.

Actually post flop playability has everything to do with it. I assume you know that 22 is much easier to play post flop then Aq. I should clarify though that i only raise a hand like 22 utg if i'm 150BB deep or more otherwise i limp. Now you will surely say you can't or shouldn't limp utg. That is untrue at micro stakes.

Originally Posted by Qminator

Shania is always important IMO, regardless of stakes

Can anyone explain what this 'shania' thing is all about? I tried googling it and nothing came up

OP:
http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/show...fpart=all&vc=1

FTR threads:
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...08.html#100882

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...st-t69331.html

littleogre: AQ is easier to play post-flop because it has the same showdown value, but more outs vs. a fish
22 flops a set sometimes, but I'm pretty sure that having top pair 30% of the time is better at the micros than flopping a set 12% of the time

Originally Posted by littleogre

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Originally Posted by daven

Originally Posted by littleogre

i personally only play AQ off in mp and later. If you do insist on raising utg i think you must fold it against most all 3-bets. Anyway i'm fairly nitty utg and i only raise AKS/AQs and pairs .

in a couple more days i'm going to address all the posts/points made in this thread.
But, first, you open 22 but fold AQs utg. Interesting. Not that I necessarily agree or disagree, but would you care to go into detail on why?

Because he already has a pair and one pair beats high card ace obv. Postflop playability has nothing to do with it.

Actually post flop playability has everything to do with it. I assume you know that 22 is much easier to play post flop then Aq. I should clarify though that i only raise a hand like 22 utg if i'm 150BB deep or more otherwise i limp. Now you will surely say you can't or shouldn't limp utg. That is untrue at micro stakes.

No it's not. Think about these two factors together: 1) your position and 2) how your equity will change throught the hand.

[ x ] Shania always being important
[ ] Shania having anything to do with whether or not you should open AQo UTG at 5nl

first off, we're talking about the mega micros where A) even the regs are still too early in their development for it to be common for them to adjust their play based on how wide your UTG opening range is and B) you seldom play enough hands against any individual opponents for you to have an EP PFR number that's very representative

second off, and much more importantly, if you're concerned that your range is exploitably tight UTG, then AQo should be very very very far from the top of the list of candidates for hands to open up to. things like 87s are much better candidates.

all that being said, i generally open AQo UTG, but i think that using shania as an excuse for doing it is bad/dangerous line of thought. if it's minus EV to open AQo UTG, then you shouldn't play it because it's not gonna do shit for improving the EV of your entire range

why is 87s better? if we're OOP against hands like KJo then it's obv worse

87s is a better hand to open at 100NL than 5NL

i'm talking about in the case that opening AQo UTG is -EV. If people are calling IP with crap like KJo, then open it from any position and go get yourself some medium-biggish pots.

if you're in a spot or at a table where opening AQo is -EV, then opening it is not going to be that great for your shania; you're much better off opening up your range by including hands that play nothing at all like your typical range.

but it all seems pretty irrelavent to me because there isn't going to be very much adjustment going on at ALL based on whether you're opening 5% UTG or 6% UTG at a 5NL FR table. if you really feel the need to make an "image" play, then you can open up 87s UTG at a really tight table and then show it if it folds around.

if you analyze your spot and playing your AQo is -EV, then just fold it.

Originally Posted by iopq

littleogre: AQ is easier to play post-flop because it has the same showdown value, but more outs vs. a fish
22 flops a set sometimes, but I'm pretty sure that having top pair 30% of the time is better at the micros than flopping a set 12% of the time

sir i'm not trying to be argumentative. All i can say is i am -ev raising AQ utg and significantly +ev limping. Now this may simply be a case of my post flop skills not being up to par. I am after all a micro player. The reason i say 22 is easy play is when limping utg or ep i use the old motto of not set no bet. If i hit a set i just bet all 3 streets and shove the river. Now they don't always call me and sometimes they beat me but in the end it wins. I use prospector 2 so i'm not sure how it's BB compares to a PT BB. Anyway i make 150 bbs/100. If i filter for utg and utg+1. I also add the filter limping 22-66. i know thats not exactly what the op asked but if i only filter for utg the sample becomes to small to be statistically meaningful.

Now lets look at what happens to me when i raise AQ off utg/utg+1. Clearly the sample size is smaller but i am -120/100. That doesn't mean others can't win raising AQ in ep but for for me it causes a lot of trouble. Perhaps i will post some of my aq hands in the future and someone can help me to become +ev with the hand in ep. I've been told at another forum that my likely biggest leak is the same leak that most people have in the same situation. I flat 3-bets to often. I would be better off just assuming that villains 3-betting range versus a utg/utg1 raise puts aq in shitty shape. Another problem is lots of players at 2nl love to just call ep raises with AK. So i can't tell you how many times i have flopped an ace on a dry board and bet all 3 streets only to have them call me down. Then i think i've won the hand only to see them show up with AK. Then i'm behind my screen thinking wtf doesn't this idiot know your suppose to 3-bet AK

oh so you must have 100K hands to prove your point because in my entire database I only have a few hundred instances of me playing AQ and 22, and a few hundred hands is obviously nothing to be judging winrate by

I mean what do people say when people post 900 hands and ask about their winrate?

WTF KINDA NIT DOESNT OIPEN AQO AT FUCKING 5NL

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

WTF KINDA NIT DOESNT OIPEN AQO AT FUCKING 5NL

the same kind of nit who won't bother figuring out why it's +EV.
Almost as bad as the fish who opens it cos he thinks he should, but also doesn't bother figuring out why it's +EV

wait a minute what stakes does op play ?

what if we are at a table where people will flat us with hands that have us dominated. Ie AK/AA that happens to me a lot of the time.

So maybe next time I should expand on what I mean by my posts. My post basically added nothing to the discussion, so I will take this time out to explain exactly what I meant.

The idea of Shania is a common idea to midstakes+ players. However, to new players, this is probably a new way of thinking. I believe Shania may be something that, if touched upon, would be smarter to simply study rather than practice (again, at the microstakes).

Most villains at the microstakes do not know what ranges are, take note of ranges, or adjust to these ranges. To suggest microstake grinders should add hands to their UTG range for Shania is simply hindering their growth. Suited connectors are difficult hands for microstakes players to play in general, never mind OOP. Hands like TP second kicker (a common occurence with AQ ldo) may also prove to be big losers OOP for microstake players.

Shania is important obviously. 5NLers must learn what it means and how it is applied. However, to practice applying it at the microstakes will only hinder their growth and discourage them.

FWIW: It's been said but I don't think AQ is the kind of hand to be used for Shania anyway. I agree with Surviva in saying a suited connector-type hand is better suited for Shania. As Spenda said, AQ is already assumed to be in an UTG range.

Originally Posted by littleogre

wait a minute what stakes does op play ?

OP plays in midstakes. He is simply asking a question to spawn discussion and have players in the microstakes see how poker players may think/answer a question.

From what ive read, lot of people are limiting the concept of shania to adding a hand that is -EV to a range, and having a +EV effect on the whole range. That is only an application of the following: when adding a hand to a range, the effect it will have over the range´s EV is different from the EV of the hand itself.

AQ is a great hand and you should open with it just be careful and not play stupid

I think AQo is pretty simple to play UTG because most 5nl players auto-3b KK+ and AK and not much else. In a game with little 3b'ing and regs who don't often flat call with premium hands, AQ is going to hold up fine most times you hit your TPTK.

I have other hands both in and out of my UTG range for shania purposes, but AQ is not one of them. Perhaps I'm missing something?

Interesting to read the responses.
What I was getting at is similar to a couple of discussions that have been going on in IRC recently, where if you write enough about a situation the answer becomes obvious. My comment about people not figuring out why/why not was not addressed at nyone, rather at everyone who provided a fold/raise answer without reasoning...

First of all, I have to address the Shania comments.
Opening AQ from UTG does nothing on this front, it is already assumed to be in your UTG open range. Opening T8s is way more relevant from a Shania perspective, but at micros it is likely to be too much spew to be worthwhile. Regarding stats, ok, some 5nl players are using a HUD. About none of them are assigning an accurate pre-flop range based on the HUD stats. Also, opening AQ vs folding AQ makes only around a 1% difference, the difference that is going to be there due to sample error anyway. Boog addressed this well.

I really like what Vinland wrote - describing the types of players at 5nl and how AQ performs against them when opened from UTG. The only downside to his analysis is the pokerstove work - as we're not allin pre-flop and are unlikely to be getting all in on flops without at least an Ace or a Queen.

Justin's analysis was post discussion in IRC. Most of the points are valid, although could possibly do with a little more explanation. Re the comment about dominated hands AJ vs AQ - there are 12 less dominating combinations (a mistake we made during discussion), 4xQueens and 3xAces.

Quite a few people started out saying "fold AQ UTG" or "raise AQ UTG", but without providing much reasoning. e.g. 99+/AQs+ too nitty? figure it out. That was the point of this thread. Explain the rationale and the answer becomes obvious.

Props to littleogre for chiming in a bunch. He's right about folding AQ to 3-bets. I think there was a misunderstanding about the AQ vs 22 thing - if he's open-limping 22 then that's fine at micros. Chances are it will limp around or face a min-raise and then it is easy to play. I assumed he meant open-raising 22, which makes post-flop a little more difficult. So with 22 open-limping is fine, so is open-folding, so is open-raising. I prefer not to open-limp anything though cos i hate feeling compelled to call decent raises from out of position. I think he should replace 'I am -ev' with 'I am down $$ over my sample', but apart from that = fine. His later analysis of WHY AQ is losing from UTG is illuminating and includes several points that are invaluable in answering the original question.

ok. Later today or tomorrow I'll put out my ideas on "how to play AQ utg at micros" - to be flamed or not as people wish.

Originally Posted by daven

ok. Later today or tomorrow I'll put out my ideas on "how to play AQ utg at micros" - to be flamed or not as people wish.

I got sidetracked.

Opening AQ from under the gun in micro Full Ring no limit hold em.

I'm going to approach this from a classical proof standpoint.
List a bunch of premises together, and use these to answer a question.

One comment first though. Open folding AQ from UTG is 0 expected value. You will lose $0, You will win $0. It is not -EV in and of itself, but nor is open folding AA.

Some facts/premises and some generalisations of micro stakes and micro players:

1) When you hold AQ there are now less combinations of dominating hands:
12 combos of AK (rather than 16)
3 combos of AA
3 combos of QQ
6 combos of KK
9 combos of AQ

2) 3-bets from players without good hands are still fairly rare at micros. AJ and JJ are only rarely being 3-bet.

3) Micro players' preflop calling ranges are wide and most definitely not varied according to the position of the original raiser (nor should they be as, typically, players are opening the same range from MP as from UTG).

4) Micro calling ranges are comprised largely of Ax hands, broadway combinations (KQ/JT/etc), and 22-JJ (sometimes QQ-AA). Obviously other hands appear in calling ranges, but these three groups are by far the most common.

5) Players are passive. They call too often and don't raise enough. If they do raise (note – raise, not bet) it is typically because they have a very good hand.

6) Players are prone to playing big pots by calling down with top pair/weak kicker kind of hands.

7) A lot of players play scared and will fold their 2nd pair hands vs overcards. A lot of these same players will call down with these same hands. Some players mix it up. They will call or fold, they won't raise.

8) Beating micros is pretty easy. The keys are:
pick up heaps of small pots with steals, isolation plays, and c-bets
extract huge value with strong hands
exercise pot control with weak hands
don't bluff beyond c-bets too often (except for orphan pots, even then it's questionable
be happy to fold to significant aggression from a passive player
play strong ranges from early position, and speculative ranges for cheap in position
understand pot odds and play draws appropriately given these odds

ok. Now what does this have to do with opening AQ from EP?

AQ and dominating hands. Points 1 & 2 address this. Fold AQ to a 3-bet unless you have a read that villain is a maniac. However, your blockers against this QQ+/AK range mean that being 3-bet won't happen that often (someone do the maths, good practice).

AQ and flop play. I'm going to assume HU flop situations cos it's easier to describe, but the same reasoning applies in multi-way pots.

Addressing five types of non-monotone flop:

a) Ace high (using A72 as our example)
as per 3 above, this hits a significant portion of villain's range (Ax combos) and the presence of an ace makes it even less likely that pairs have hit a set (2 possibilities, not 3). There are now sixty 22-QQ (= 6x 33-66, 88-QQ, 3x22, 3x77) pair combinations in villain's range, you are ahead of 54 of them. Of the 130 possible hand combinations A2-AK (12xA3-A6, 6xA2, 6xA7, 6xAQ, 12xA8-AJ, 12xAK) in villain's range, you are ahead of all bar 30 (A2/A7/AK/AQ). Meaning you are ahead about 75% of the time. You are ahead of all the broadway combos. You are ahead of about all of the other random shit he may have called with. But, even better, is that he is calling with a lot of these hands that you are way ahead of. As per 5 & 6 above, he is calling most of his aces. He is calling some of his 88-QQ. Even better than that, AJ and AT are hands that villains will often happily call their stacks in with over three streets when they hit their pair of aces. This is part of the reason that AJ is so much worse than AQ, you are suddenly no longer ahead of as many of the aces that fish perceive as strong, and you are now behind/splitting against more of this perceived strong range. 100 bb deep and you're going to be pretty happy taking a bet-bet-bet line here.

b) K high (using KT6 as our example)
This is a pretty standard/easy cbet. As per 7, most Ax hands are folding. Most pairs are folding. If you c-bet 2/3 pot then you only need to win the pot 40% of the time for the bet to be neutral EV, if you win it any more often than that then it's a +EV bet. If you don't understand why, then find out. Players are scared that you have the king. They'll fold a bunch, especially 55 type of hands. Also as per 7 above, players sometimes also call their 2nd pair type of hands. Don't invest money past the flop unimproved.

c) Q high (using QT6 as our example)
This is a cbet for value, although you will find that most of villain's range will be folding. Any queen will be calling though (I haz top pair) and you're ahead of all bar QT. A bunch of 77-JJ is also calling, cos there isn't an ace or king on the flop, so you're obviously bluffing.

d) Undercard paired flops (e.g. 774)
C-bet these as you choose (I always would, just cos of the 40% thing). Barrel Ace or Q turns, otherwise shut down to resistance.

e) Low flops (e.g. 467)
You can c-bet or check fold these, up to you. Obviously don't get too involved if you face resistance.

So, of these five common flop flavours, what becomes apparent?

obvious point 1) You win a lot of pots on A/K/Q high flops. Some of these pots will be big. You will only rarely be playing multiple streets of aggression without the best hand.
obvious point 2) You won't be investing a lot of money when you have weak holdings.
obvious point 3) You will generally win a lot more $$ than you will lose if you don't play stupidly post flop.


Ok, to address some of the reasons not to open AQ utg.

1)It is so often dominated – MYTH, and even more so on the flops you like (eg. Aqx). You are also folding to 3-bets = even less likely that you're dominated post flop.
2)It's difficult to play post-flop – MYTH – see above.

3) sounds like everything you said applies to AJ - thanks to IOPQ for pointing this out in his post below. I will address this later.

3) is wrong because they should be varied depending on the position since if half of the players are positionally-aware and half aren't, on average an UTG open from an unknown is looser than a BU open
also, some people who are not positionally-aware might "steal blinds" with trashy hands from LP when it's folded to them (but won't isolate limpers because they're not positionally aware/good/whatever)

but your reasoning applies to AJo as well, except now J hi flops are good to bet for value and Q hi are good to cbet as a bluff
however, AJo is a super standard fold UTG

Originally Posted by Matrice

AQo is 80% of the time in front and at those range people will call u with A8 or pop...

I'm not saying you should always be aggressive with AQ... but with a fishy table (which is 60% of your table under NL10) I suggest behind alittle more agressive then usual...

For the one who play AQs but fold AQo.... you're play is about 2,7% that important? You know your odds of flopping or hitting your flush... come on anyway all we want is *Blind, *Behind called by a worst hand...

As for your range Belt.... When I was playing those limits I was limping pocket 6 and under from UTG and raising 3,5 everything over 7's and A10s

I dont think the 2.7% matters as much as the postflop playability that being suited adds to any hand.

Edit: fixed typo on AQ combos below

You included 9 AQ combo's in your "dominated" list for AQ where we're generally tied unless the board is monotone sick or villain flops a FD to AQs (either 2 or 3 combos, depending on Hero's AQo vs. AQs)

Originally Posted by daven

3) sounds like everything you said applies to AJ - thanks to IOPQ for pointing this out in his post below. I will address this later.

Well...we have to add the 12 combo's of AQ and 3 more QQ's to the list of dominated hands. While it is true that AJ flops only a bit worse than AQ, the problem is not knowing (oop) if it's good.

Since I know IOPQ knows all this, my view is that he's trying to get us to replay Daven's reasoning with AJ so we can find the critical differences. There's more to it than what I said above, and since IOPQ seems to be setting up a "learning moment," I won't go into my reasoning any more deeply right now.

Anyway, I'm enjoying this thread. NH Daven + others.

I will usually raise x4 with AQ, suited or not, from UTG, and fold to a reraise. Of course, stack size plays a huge part. If I'm 15BB or less, it's a shove.

Originally Posted by daven

I got sidetracked.

Opening AQ from under the gun in micro Full Ring no limit hold em.

I'm going to approach this from a classical proof standpoint.
List a bunch of premises together, and use these to answer a question.

One comment first though. Open folding AQ from UTG is 0 expected value. You will lose $0, You will win $0. It is not -EV in and of itself, but nor is open folding AA.

Some facts/premises and some generalisations of micro stakes and micro players:

1) When you hold AQ there are now less combinations of dominating hands:
12 combos of AK (rather than 16)
3 combos of AA
3 combos of QQ
6 combos of KK
9 combos of AQ

2) 3-bets from players without good hands are still fairly rare at micros. AJ and JJ are only rarely being 3-bet.

3) Micro players' preflop calling ranges are wide and most definitely not varied according to the position of the original raiser (nor should they be as, typically, players are opening the same range from MP as from UTG).

4) Micro calling ranges are comprised largely of Ax hands, broadway combinations (KQ/JT/etc), and 22-JJ (sometimes QQ-AA). Obviously other hands appear in calling ranges, but these three groups are by far the most common.

5) Players are passive. They call too often and don't raise enough. If they do raise (note – raise, not bet) it is typically because they have a very good hand.

6) Players are prone to playing big pots by calling down with top pair/weak kicker kind of hands.

7) A lot of players play scared and will fold their 2nd pair hands vs overcards. A lot of these same players will call down with these same hands. Some players mix it up. They will call or fold, they won't raise.

8) Beating micros is pretty easy. The keys are:
pick up heaps of small pots with steals, isolation plays, and c-bets
extract huge value with strong hands
exercise pot control with weak hands
don't bluff beyond c-bets too often (except for orphan pots, even then it's questionable
be happy to fold to significant aggression from a passive player
play strong ranges from early position, and speculative ranges for cheap in position
understand pot odds and play draws appropriately given these odds

ok. Now what does this have to do with opening AQ from EP?

AQ and dominating hands. Points 1 & 2 address this. Fold AQ to a 3-bet unless you have a read that villain is a maniac. However, your blockers against this QQ+/AK range mean that being 3-bet won't happen that often (someone do the maths, good practice).

AQ and flop play. I'm going to assume HU flop situations cos it's easier to describe, but the same reasoning applies in multi-way pots.

Addressing five types of non-monotone flop:

a) Ace high (using A72 as our example)
as per 3 above, this hits a significant portion of villain's range (Ax combos) and the presence of an ace makes it even less likely that pairs have hit a set (2 possibilities, not 3). There are now sixty 22-QQ (= 6x 33-66, 88-QQ, 3x22, 3x77) pair combinations in villain's range, you are ahead of 54 of them. Of the 130 possible hand combinations A2-AK (12xA3-A6, 6xA2, 6xA7, 6xAQ, 12xA8-AJ, 12xAK) in villain's range, you are ahead of all bar 30 (A2/A7/AK/AQ). Meaning you are ahead about 75% of the time. You are ahead of all the broadway combos. You are ahead of about all of the other random shit he may have called with. But, even better, is that he is calling with a lot of these hands that you are way ahead of. As per 5 & 6 above, he is calling most of his aces. He is calling some of his 88-QQ. Even better than that, AJ and AT are hands that villains will often happily call their stacks in with over three streets when they hit their pair of aces. This is part of the reason that AJ is so much worse than AQ, you are suddenly no longer ahead of as many of the aces that fish perceive as strong, and you are now behind/splitting against more of this perceived strong range. 100 bb deep and you're going to be pretty happy taking a bet-bet-bet line here.

b) K high (using KT6 as our example)
This is a pretty standard/easy cbet. As per 7, most Ax hands are folding. Most pairs are folding. If you c-bet 2/3 pot then you only need to win the pot 40% of the time for the bet to be neutral EV, if you win it any more often than that then it's a +EV bet. If you don't understand why, then find out. Players are scared that you have the king. They'll fold a bunch, especially 55 type of hands. Also as per 7 above, players sometimes also call their 2nd pair type of hands. Don't invest money past the flop unimproved.

c) Q high (using QT6 as our example)
This is a cbet for value, although you will find that most of villain's range will be folding. Any queen will be calling though (I haz top pair) and you're ahead of all bar QT. A bunch of 77-JJ is also calling, cos there isn't an ace or king on the flop, so you're obviously bluffing.

d) Undercard paired flops (e.g. 774)
C-bet these as you choose (I always would, just cos of the 40% thing). Barrel Ace or Q turns, otherwise shut down to resistance.

e) Low flops (e.g. 467)
You can c-bet or check fold these, up to you. Obviously don't get too involved if you face resistance.

So, of these five common flop flavours, what becomes apparent?

obvious point 1) You win a lot of pots on A/K/Q high flops. Some of these pots will be big. You will only rarely be playing multiple streets of aggression without the best hand.
obvious point 2) You won't be investing a lot of money when you have weak holdings.
obvious point 3) You will generally win a lot more $$ than you will lose if you don't play stupidly post flop.


Ok, to address some of the reasons not to open AQ utg.

1)It is so often dominated – MYTH, and even more so on the flops you like (eg. Aqx). You are also folding to 3-bets = even less likely that you're dominated post flop.
2)It's difficult to play post-flop – MYTH – see above.

3) sounds like everything you said applies to AJ - thanks to IOPQ for pointing this out in his post below. I will address this later.

bump for value....digest maybe?

AQ is my lucky hand

I would vote for digest, but only the post you quoted. I had to look up what shania meant only to find out it means playing your range :P

I would also vote the KQs thread for the digest.

Originally Posted by littleogre

Actually post flop playability has everything to do with it. I assume you know that 22 is much easier to play post flop then Aq. I should clarify though that i only raise a hand like 22 utg if i'm 150BB deep or more otherwise i limp. Now you will surely say you can't or shouldn't limp utg. That is untrue at micro stakes.

I never came back to this thread, so I never got to comment on how wrong the bold part is, but m2m covered it so holla.

Interesting thread. I diverted and read The 2+2 Forums Older Archives: Think about Shania which was interesting. I actually think I got the basic concept of Shania!

Opening AQ utg at micros for balance/image/shania sounds kinda retarded though

Originally Posted by Imthenewfish

Opening AQ utg at micros for balance/image/shania sounds kinda retarded though

lfdo

as per

Originally Posted by me

First of all, I have to address the Shania comments.
Opening AQ from UTG does nothing on this front, it is already assumed to be in your UTG open range. Opening T8s is way more relevant from a Shania perspective, but at micros it is likely to be too much spew to be worthwhile. Regarding stats, ok, some 5nl players are using a HUD. About none of them are assigning an accurate pre-flop range based on the HUD stats. Also, opening AQ vs folding AQ makes only around a 1% difference, the difference that is going to be there due to sample error anyway. Boog addressed this well.

i sorry

Originally Posted by daviddem

I would also vote the KQs thread for the digest.

Good read.