Noobies play this hand w/ me

This a great hand because it created interesting choices on each street. I'll give a street-by-street analysis of what I was thinking. The FTR regs can add whatever they think relevant. I have come up with a couple of "exercises" for noobies to get you thinkin' :P

Villain is a 25/17/2.5 TAGG-ish player over 80 hands. I haven't tangled with him, so no notes yet, but he hasn't gotten out of line.


$0.25/$0.5 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($99.80)
UTG 1 ($55.25)
CO ($51.25)
BTN ($144.65)
SB ($50.25)
Hero (BB) ($58.75)

Pre-flop: ($0.75, 6 players) Hero is BB
1 fold, UTG 1 raises to $1, 3 folds,


I was thinking: "Hmm...non-standard. Middle position min-raise. Check notes - nope - only 80 hands. Looks TAGGy."

With no relevant read, I considered what hands I've seen shown down after min-raise opens. At my stakes, this is most often a weak holding, but the range is polarized with maybe 20% KK+ type hands playing "tricky." These villains have the happy tendency to call/fold to 3bets with weak hands and raise with strong ones. Usually a min-raise, lulz.

Next, I'm wishing I had JJ 'cuz I'd insta-3bet for value. I stop to consider 99 against his likely calling range, given that I get to play oop. The fact he's MP, isn't too nitty and is playing a non-standard line convinces me I'm 3betting for value. So I plan to 3bet/fold. I do plan to call the min-raise 4bet, but if it comes to that I'm not committing any more chips without the immortal nuts.

Finally, what's my 3bet size? Against a more typical opening, I would raise 3x or 3.5x. I choose 4x to give him only 1.75 to 1 pot odds on his call rather than 1.9 or 2.1 to 1. Too small, and he pretty much has to call with any two.


Hero raises to $4, UTG 1 calls $3


Exercise for noobies: The "never give your opponent a free card" mantra is nonsense. There are lots of times we "give" a free card. Think of several non-obvious instances where it is correct to do so. Discuss ITT.


Flop: ($8.25, 2 players)
Hero checks, UTG 1 checks


Flopped gin, but the ace is an interesting card. My options are to bet, which reps the Ace and a big kicker, or check to rep a hand like JJ. I won't specify my range estimate, yet, but I felt villain had some Ace-rag-sooted in there. I check villain's flop aggression percentage and see 40% which is likely meaningless over such a small sample, but he's willing to fire in some bets on the flop.

If I bet, I'm repping a hand big enough to chase off anything he's likely to have outside of Ax or 44, which has to be less than 30% of his range even if he's calling one street w/ every Ax hand he could have. (I've seen more typical raises, so I'm discounting AK/AQ in my estimates of his range preflop.)

If I check, I'm headed down the "obvious set" paths:
1. check/call flop, check/raise turn
2. check/call flop and turn, donk river

I don't generally like playing "obvious set" lines when I actually have a set, though those lines are cool lots of other times. But I don't see how I can avoid it. Leading this flop is folding out every hand I'd want to continue, and he's drawing nearly dead with virtually everything in his range.

But what to do on the turn after he checks behind on the flop? I'm pretty sure I have his range crushed, but I want a chance at his stack, and I can't get all the chips in if he checks behind on the turn. I decide to lead the turn.


Turn: ($8.25, 2 players)
Hero bets $4, UTG 1 raises
to $13, Hero calls $9

Yowza! We have a live one. Unfortunately, I'm pretty confused by what he could have since I felt like he'd bet the flop w/ Ax. Slowplaying 44 or Ax? Did he just decide I can't have an Ace and bet out with TT or JJ (neither of which make any sense preflop)? Maybe 87s or 65s with GSSD/backdoor FD, but he seems too tight preflop for that. So nothing seems likely, not even the nuts, so I'm pretty sure he's lost his mind. I decide to play it like he's got Ax. That makes the most sense to me.

That sets up the river action. Do I lead? I usually lead out because I HATE letting him check behind here. If he's got Ax or 44, he's paying me off, possibly raising all-in. But he'll likely lead those hands. He's reasonably aggressive over 80 hands, betting/raising 5 times for every 2 calls. But it's his range that convinces me to go for a crai river. I think it's largely comprised of Ax hands since he woke up on the 2nd Ace. He could have some pp's, maybe a thin draw. I feel like he might have an Ace and decide I don't have the last one. Most opponents will have trouble not going broke with Ax or 44 here, and if he has A9 (2 combos) or A4 (6 combos), I'm toast. i accept that, and opt for crai.


River: ($34.25, 2 players)
Hero ($41.75)?


Exercise for noobies: give a range for villain here, starting with preflop and narrowing based on successive streets. Discuss if my crai river plan is good or bad based on your estimates of villain's likely responses with the holdings you think are in his range.


Thanks for playing along. I'll post the river and showdown after some folks have commented. I don't mind critiques of how I played this. I admit I got confused by his range and actions after the turn, so let me know what y'all think.

Preflop: I put him on a PP 22-TT or Axs/Kxs. JJ or higher would mean a bigger raise, or a check/raise. Could be a weak attempt to protect a mediocre hand OOP against the big stack's raise/steal, which would certainly mean folding. This is a poor bet as it's not big enough to defend anything, and it's OOP.

Postflop: I figure he's checking for a free shot at a set for his PP, or he's slow playing Ax. Either way I'm setting up a PSB on the turn.

Turn: Hmm, I would have bet bigger but as played his raise leads me to believe he's got a set for his Ax. If he slow-played A4 or A9, we are going home in tears, but here's where I RRAI hoping he can't let go of a set of A's and praying he has 44.

Preflop: 44-88, KK+, KT-KQ, A4s-A9s, A4o-ATo

Flop: much the same since he took no action. I dont know if KK would lead out given the A might scare him since you 3bet pf.

Turn: 44, A5s-A8s, A5o-A8o, ATo
If he had 44, he probably put you on Ax and knew you wouldnt fold if he bet so he pumps the pot.
I dont include A4 or A9 b/c thats the nuts and he doesnt want to blow you out of the pot. The other Ax combo's reraise for value.
I still think KK is not betting here b/c You could easily hold an A given your pf aggression.

I like the flop check....pretty safe given the dry board...
I think a check on river is fine. There is probably nothing he has that he wont bet out. If he has an A it will be safe to say you don't. The only hand he checks behind IMO is KK.
But, if you check river and he bets large/shoves.....are you happy?

Looking forward to results to see if I'm even close.

Originally Posted by Dash

Turn: Hmm, I would have bet bigger but as played his raise leads me to believe he's got a set for his Ax. If he slow-played A4 or A9, we are going home in tears, but here's where I RRAI hoping he can't let go of a set of A's and praying he has 44.

Yeah, my turn's a bit small, probably $5 is better. Glad you noticed. I still have his range soooo crushed I'm praying for a call. The raise is a blessing, and he raised too small, fwiw. Wouldn't have mattered in the end.

Originally Posted by Vinland

But, if you check river and he bets large/shoves.....are you happy?

Yep.

But, if you check river and he bets large/shoves.....are you happy?

with 9's full i'll be doing a jig in front of my screen. of course we're happy

PF I'd put him on decent PP + any two faces + AT. Since he called instead of reraising, I think we can eliminate QQ+ and AK. If he's tight at all, I don't get why he'd be raising suited connectors and calling a 3bet with them, unless they were broadway like QJs+. Likewise, I wouldn't expect suited aces, except maybe the suitedness would make him loosen up his standards a bit, dipping down to perhaps A7s or maybe A6s. You having a nine makes A9s unlikely, but I'd include it in his range because I think he has a chance of taking this action with A9s.

The minraise doesn't rep AJ+ to me, though. I think the highest ace here has here is AT, and even then, unless he's really passive, I think he'd make a real raise. So it's got to be A9 and lower.

He checks behind on the flop for some reason. I don't know why. I now feel more comfortable dismissing A9 from his hand because you've seen three of them.

He raises you on the turn. I fail to gain much information from this, except that he finds it unlikely you have the last ace, and he probably has a decent kicker if he does. Maybe he has A4 or A9 and made a boat, I think he would have bet with two pair instead of checking. Likely Ax or 44. He probably thinks that his kicker is good enough now that you haven't repped the ace by betting the flop. He probably thinks you decided to bluff him since he checked behind, so his weak ace must be good here.

He could also be slowplaying 44, I guess. In fact, that's pretty much how I've seen the tight players do it at 4nl, slow down until you bet so they don't scare you away.

Any hand without an ace or 44 pretty much folds to your turn bet, now fearing trips, since you 3bet him pf.

On the river, assuming he's on Ax or 44, he is absolutely not folding. If you bet, he's calling at the least and likely shipping it. Whether you bet or check, he's putting money.

On the other hand, if he doesn't have Ax or 44, I think he's folding or checking behind. I think that he'll put you on an ace if he doesn't have one. Of course, if he has Ax or 44, he's trying to get more money in the middle.

I'm not sure what action to take if he's not sure of his hand, but again, his raise on the turn tells me he's likely sure of his hand. I really have no idea what to do if he wasn't sure of his hand when he raised you. Without seeing him play much, I have no idea if he likes to try and bluff the river when checked to or what.

Small turn line, but that's already been said and he gave you blessed miracle action with the raise, thank you Jesus.

As far as lines go, I would expect TAGGish to 4b AA pre-flop, so I'll take that out. Showing up with A4/A9 (even suited) still seems retarted from EP with his stats. I'm afraid of nothing here.

He has to hold a strong ace here a wide majority of the time. AQ/AK types. Assuming he's an intelligent player, he knows you like you hand by now and are willing to commit your stack. You, being and intelligent player, know he's already committed his stack. There's no need to play here...I shove the river. If he folds, he's an idiot, and I make a note that I can extract on multiple streets and add him to my buddy list.

1. I'm more happy to 3b 55 than 99 here, because I think the pf call is EV+ anyway and I'm not that sure making 99 into a 3b bluff is a great line
2. checking flop is fine, after he checks back he has Ax, JJ+ a lot
3. after turn raise I shove because his range is pretty much Ax, he has trips, he already put in a quarter of his stack in, wtf is he going to do, raise/fold?
4. if we got to the river I overbet shove

I think a check on river is fine. There is probably nothing he has that he wont bet out. If he has an A it will be safe to say you don't. The only hand he checks behind IMO is KK.

I am actually changing my mind on this. I think the crai is fine but just not my style. I lead out for a 1/2 pot bet. Its a bit weak but allows him to quickly reraise all in easily...If he has 44 or a semi-decent A hes paying you off.

Originally Posted by iopq

1. I'm more happy to 3b 55 than 99 here, because I think the pf call is EV+ anyway and I'm not that sure making 99 into a 3b bluff is a great line

I don't think the 3b is a bluff - it's for value, or at least a pot sweetener. I think he's weak and will call, and I want to get more of chips in. I may be wrong, of course...

Originally Posted by Robb

Originally Posted by iopq

1. I'm more happy to 3b 55 than 99 here, because I think the pf call is EV+ anyway and I'm not that sure making 99 into a 3b bluff is a great line

I don't think the 3b is a bluff - it's for value, or at least a pot sweetener. I think he's weak and will call, and I want to get more of chips in. I may be wrong, of course...

well if you're folding to a 4b, it's kind of a bluff if he decides he can 4b bluff you some of the time

plus, you're not a huge favorite against his 3b-calling range
he could decide to 4b bluff his weakest hands and 4b his strongest hands and call with medium strength hands

let's say his 4b is a shove (see the CTS post on this) and you're folding
he does this with 22-66, Axs, QQ+,AK
his flatting range is 78s+,AJ,AQ,KQ,QJs,77-JJ
his folding range is some of his bluffs that he decides to fold, QTs, J9s and other crap like that seems too crappy to call with that he opens from MP

the hands you get "value" from are 78s, 98s, 77, 88
the hands you are crushed by are TT, JJ
the rest are a flip

obviously in this case you'd rather not 3b because his weaker hands bluff your decent hand out

Originally Posted by iopq

Originally Posted by Robb

Originally Posted by iopq

1. I'm more happy to 3b 55 than 99 here, because I think the pf call is EV+ anyway and I'm not that sure making 99 into a 3b bluff is a great line

I don't think the 3b is a bluff - it's for value, or at least a pot sweetener. I think he's weak and will call, and I want to get more of chips in. I may be wrong, of course...

well if you're folding to a 4b, it's kind of a bluff if he decides he can 4b bluff you some of the time

plus, you're not a huge favorite against his 3b-calling range
he could decide to 4b bluff his weakest hands and 4b his strongest hands and call with medium strength hands

let's say his 4b is a shove (see the CTS post on this) and you're folding
he does this with 22-66, Axs, QQ+,AK
his flatting range is 78s+,AJ,AQ,KQ,QJs,77-JJ
his folding range is some of his bluffs that he decides to fold, QTs, J9s and other crap like that seems too crappy to call with that he opens from MP

the hands you get "value" from are 78s, 98s, 77, 88
the hands you are crushed by are TT, JJ
the rest are a flip

obviously in this case you'd rather not 3b because his weaker hands bluff your decent hand out

Wait, you're saying a 50nl player who could do even a third of the above analysis would play a non-standard (for him) min-open UTG?

Originally Posted by Robb

Originally Posted by iopq

Originally Posted by Robb

Originally Posted by iopq

1. I'm more happy to 3b 55 than 99 here, because I think the pf call is EV+ anyway and I'm not that sure making 99 into a 3b bluff is a great line

I don't think the 3b is a bluff - it's for value, or at least a pot sweetener. I think he's weak and will call, and I want to get more of chips in. I may be wrong, of course...

well if you're folding to a 4b, it's kind of a bluff if he decides he can 4b bluff you some of the time

plus, you're not a huge favorite against his 3b-calling range
he could decide to 4b bluff his weakest hands and 4b his strongest hands and call with medium strength hands

let's say his 4b is a shove (see the CTS post on this) and you're folding
he does this with 22-66, Axs, QQ+,AK
his flatting range is 78s+,AJ,AQ,KQ,QJs,77-JJ
his folding range is some of his bluffs that he decides to fold, QTs, J9s and other crap like that seems too crappy to call with that he opens from MP

the hands you get "value" from are 78s, 98s, 77, 88
the hands you are crushed by are TT, JJ
the rest are a flip

obviously in this case you'd rather not 3b because his weaker hands bluff your decent hand out

Wait, you're saying a 50nl player who could do even a third of the above analysis would play a non-standard (for him) min-open UTG?

sometimes I misclick the slider and I minraise accidentally
but even if he doesn't decide to 4b bluff you, if he just folds those 4b bluffing hands you're not getting value from much
and the hands you'd prefer to setmine against like AA/KK will 4b you and you will have to fold instead of possibly stacking them for a minraise

Originally Posted by iopq

Originally Posted by Robb

Originally Posted by iopq

Originally Posted by Robb

Originally Posted by iopq

1. I'm more happy to 3b 55 than 99 here, because I think the pf call is EV+ anyway and I'm not that sure making 99 into a 3b bluff is a great line

I don't think the 3b is a bluff - it's for value, or at least a pot sweetener. I think he's weak and will call, and I want to get more of chips in. I may be wrong, of course...

well if you're folding to a 4b, it's kind of a bluff if he decides he can 4b bluff you some of the time

plus, you're not a huge favorite against his 3b-calling range
he could decide to 4b bluff his weakest hands and 4b his strongest hands and call with medium strength hands

let's say his 4b is a shove (see the CTS post on this) and you're folding
he does this with 22-66, Axs, QQ+,AK
his flatting range is 78s+,AJ,AQ,KQ,QJs,77-JJ
his folding range is some of his bluffs that he decides to fold, QTs, J9s and other crap like that seems too crappy to call with that he opens from MP

the hands you get "value" from are 78s, 98s, 77, 88
the hands you are crushed by are TT, JJ
the rest are a flip

obviously in this case you'd rather not 3b because his weaker hands bluff your decent hand out

Wait, you're saying a 50nl player who could do even a third of the above analysis would play a non-standard (for him) min-open UTG?

sometimes I misclick the slider and I minraise accidentally
but even if he doesn't decide to 4b bluff you, if he just folds those 4b bluffing hands you're not getting value from much
and the hands you'd prefer to setmine against like AA/KK will 4b you and you will have to fold instead of possibly stacking them for a minraise

You'll LoL when you see the results - must be a misclick RIVER imo.

time to post results.....popcorn and drink in hand....