Low/Middle pairs preflop

2 usual scenarios (I'm talking 22 through 99):

1) Limp to see a cheap flop, fold to any raise unless you're getting good pot odds.

2) Raise as you would with anything else to get rid of other limpers.

Most people do one of these two as standard play. I'm wondering whch one you prefer and explain why.

well as i play full ring i tend to limp pairs 22-88 in ep, sometimes raising if the tables tight, i usually raise 99 from any position unless the table is very agro. From lp i raise every pocket pair as i have a good chance of taking the blinds down or seeing a flop in positon with a hand thats fairly easy to play when in position. I also never fold to a raise when i limp with a small/mid pp unless the raise is 6xbb plus and no one else calls or if the size of the raisers stack doesnt give good implied odds to hit my set. In addition ill limp small pps in lp if theres been multiple limpers though ill vary this by isolating on occasions against multiple weak players with high vps yet low limp call stats. In relation to six max id just raise every pp from every position unless i had a good reason not to do so.

Like above, I rarely ever limp 99. But for 22-88, I will usually limp behind but I rarely open limp. Most times I either open raise pre-flop or fold depending on the table.

Say your in MP2 with 44 and it's folded to you and you raise 4BB. Eh, you get one caller behind you but he's a loose-passive type. A c-bet almost always works here, even OOP, unless he's hit TP.

And the part about calling raises with good implied odds in the previous post is golden and +EV over the long haul. Learn. Implement. Enjoy.

in NL, small middle pairs dont care about pot odds, its stack odds that u look at since its not the pot that you are looking to win, its the opp's stack
in 6max raise all from any pos if opening pot
in full ring raise 99+ from any position limp/call the rest except in late position raise all

polarbears...as in think about your range. What's so polarized about it when i know youre holding a low pocket pair when you limp?

I guess it depends on your style of play, but i rarely miss out an opportunity to raise.

Anyway, I dont know much about full ring, but 6max i raise all pp. Exception might be utg. there i miht just fold them, or if i have a bunch of donks who always limp, might still raise or limp.

Raise it up and follow through, they will fold to your cbet enough to make it profitable. Even when you get called you are getting value by establishing an image and polarizing your range.
You're raising it for set value and cbet it for both to build a pot when you hit and to pick up the pot when you don't.
In a raised pot you will call a bet for set value if youre getting the implied odds to do so, and safely fold when you dont hit/repop if you do.

PPs are very easy to play and rarely will you find yourself in a reverse implied situation. If you dont hit your set and other people connected with the flop- its very easy to walk away. And when you do hit the set- its very easy to get paid.

I open all pp's for a raise from all positions at 10nl 6max and FR. I sometimes will limp small pp's (but always raise 77+) from EP at 25nl, where you get 3bet more often. Several FTR discussions have been held on the topic, many of them in the Beginner's Forum, over the past year or so. Basic consensus is that you should open raise all pp's from all positions until game conditions force you not to - meaning, there's too much 3betting behind you that forces you to fold preflop since you rarely have set odds to call the 3bet with 100bb stacks.

I raise all PPs from all position in six-max, and call if I'm getting at least 15:1 in implied stack odds. The reasons for this are:

1. If everyone folds you pick up the pot right there.
2. If you miss you can probably cbet your way out of it.
3. Flopping a set in a limped pot is a waste of time. Nobody gives a crap about the 3-4 BB in the middle. In a raised pot people will move money to the middle with air, they'll be much more likely to have strong top pair, or 2pair hands, flush draws etc. You're looking to play for stacks, and the best way to get that to happen is to put something worth your opponent's risk in the middle. Imagine this. You're in the big blind with 22, and everyone folds to the small blind who completes. The pot is 2 big blinds. You flop a set, you pot it. Your oppoenent calls, and on the turn the pot is 6 BB, you pot it again, get called. On the river the pot is 18 BB, you pot it again, he calls, and you win a 54 BB pot, for a profit of 27 BB. Now imagine if you'd raised 4xBB, got called, and pot'd every street. You'd have paid about the same preflop to win about the same in terms of odds - ~24:1, but the win margin is much larger, and the scenario is much more likely to happen.

Originally Posted by DJJunkPauds

On the river the pot is 18 BB, you pot it again, he calls, and you win a 54 BB pot, for a profit of 27 BB. Now imagine if you'd raised 4xBB, got called, and pot'd every street.

+1 on rest of post

Here, after 54 BB pot is won, there's the nearly 3 BB rake, for a profit of slightly more than 24BB :P

Originally Posted by DJJunkPauds

I raise all PPs from all position in six-max, and call if I'm getting at least 15:1 in implied stack odds. The reasons for this are:

1. If everyone folds you pick up the pot right there.
2. If you miss you can probably cbet your way out of it.
3. Flopping a set in a limped pot is a waste of time. Nobody gives a crap about the 3-4 BB in the middle. In a raised pot people will move money to the middle with air, they'll be much more likely to have strong top pair, or 2pair hands, flush draws etc. You're looking to play for stacks, and the best way to get that to happen is to put something worth your opponent's risk in the middle. Imagine this. You're in the big blind with 22, and everyone folds to the small blind who completes. The pot is 2 big blinds. You flop a set, you pot it. Your oppoenent calls, and on the turn the pot is 6 BB, you pot it again, get called. On the river the pot is 18 BB, you pot it again, he calls, and you win a 54 BB pot, for a profit of 27 BB. Now imagine if you'd raised 4xBB, got called, and pot'd every street. You'd have paid about the same preflop to win about the same in terms of odds - ~24:1, but the win margin is much larger, and the scenario is much more likely to happen.

I agree with all of this, but another thing should be added: don't take the hand too far after the flop if you whiff. C-bet strong if you miss, but after that it is generally spew on later streets. Of course this depends on your opponent/board texture/stack sizes, but I'm speaking from experience...I tend to bloat the pot with my mid PPs and find myself pot fucked.

I'll also add that against someone who has a range of AK/QQ+ or similar, I might go as low as 10:1 in implied odds in position (I stress in position).

Say a mega-nit-fish raises big from UTG, and I'm on the BTN with 77, I'll call with 10:1. Also, imagine a player who isn't a nit, but only 3bets AK/QQ+ my BTN raise from the big blind, I'll call with 10:1 or better.

In either scenario, if I don't flop a set, but the board doesn't contain an ace or a king (even better if it's queen high), I can call his continuation bet with my underpair in good conscience knowing that I have 40% equity against his range, and that he'll check his AK on a non ace or king containing turn so that I can float him. If he's not the type to c-bet a missed AK after 3betting (this is rare even for a nit), great because his hand will be face up. If he's the type to double barrel his missed AK after a 3bet, that's fine (not desirable, but still okay) too, because we still have odds.

And if I do flop a set, well gravy. I'm getting his stack nearly 100% of the time.

Originally Posted by AlphaKennyBody

I agree with all of this, but another thing should be added: don't take the hand too far after the flop if you whiff. C-bet strong if you miss, but after that it is generally spew on later streets. Of course this depends on your opponent/board texture/stack sizes, but I'm speaking from experience...I tend to bloat the pot with my mid PPs and find myself pot fucked. :(

Eh, that's read dependent for me. A lot of opponents need double barreling to push them off their draw/2nd pair/underpair/unimproved big ace. And against opponents that won't be pushed off those hands, something as weak as 99 on a Js8s4c type board is often a decent hand for two (sometimes even 3) value bets.

This is extremely reliant on a decent read though, and preferably position. It's by no means standard against a non-descript player. Against an unknown you probably want to dump your pair on the turn unless it becomes a set, or was an over pair on the flop. If someone who folds to cbets something like >75% calls you, you need to dump it without a set after cbetting just about any flop (even 88 on a 742r flop is extremely marginal against these guys).

22-88 i like to limp. if theres hefty raises, i can get out for cheap. also, if the flop comes and i turn a set, with more players in a limped pot it is more likely that someone got a piece of it and wants to play.

Originally Posted by AFchung

22-88 i like to limp. if theres hefty raises, i can get out for cheap. also, if the flop comes and i turn a set, with more players in a limped pot it is more likely that someone got a piece of it and wants to play.

I think you're missing value not raising small pp's even from EP whenever you're at a table where there's very little 3betting. Of course, tourneys (which you said you play) are different. Some good tourney players just fold 22 - 77 in EP in the early stages.

In my experience, getting all the chips in the middle with a set is hard to do in a limped pot, even at 10nl and especially at 25nl. The best way I've found to play for stacks to iso 1 - 2 villains in a raised pot. Cbetting is good on high card flops when you get flatted (usually means sc's and small/med pp's, and your open raise signals high card strength).