limping UTG

6max, $10NL. Have started limping 22-77, maybe 88 & 99 UTG and then calling a raise w/ set odds. Found when I raised these, was getting 3-bet enough times (esp from shorties) that destroyed any set odds and forced a fold. By limping, these same players raise which I can call and still be eff 15:1+. I know the "never limp UTG" mantra... but is my thought process of with this one?

I think it's a good idea. You're getting the odds you want to go set hunting, where before you were just throwing money away. How do you play the flop if you hit your set? Bet out or check raise?

I don't think there's anything wrong with limping UTG at relatively passive tables, like the kind you often find live.

When there's a few aggressive shorties around, it's probably bad cause you're gunna have to let it go often.

Originally Posted by poker_pup

I think it's a good idea. You're getting the odds you want to go set hunting, where before you were just throwing money away. How do you play the flop if you hit your set? Bet out or check raise?

Depends on read. If he's 70%+ cbetter, I'll check call flop... and if aggro enuff, ch/r turn or b/r if he's not a two-barreler. If the board flops 2 to flush or ugly draw, I'll psb donk and stack off if raised. If he's passive post-, and dry board, I'll donk for 1/2 to 2/3 pot, call a raise, and get it in on the turn. Or something like that...

Originally Posted by d0zer

I don't think there's anything wrong with limping UTG at relatively passive tables, like the kind you often find live.

When there's a few aggressive shorties around, it's probably bad cause you're gunna have to let it go often.

Actually, this is in response to more aggro tables. Half stack 3-bets my UTG PFR, and I gotta drop my low pp -- but I figure if he raises my limp (assuming normal 4x PFR) I can flat him and still have eff set odds. Of course, a squeeze and I'm gone, but all I've lost is 1bb vs. 4 if I'd raised...

...but it just feels so freakin weak...

It's fine if you balance it with occasionally limping other holdings.

limping is a bad habit dont start this early.

Originally Posted by sarbox68

6max, $10NL. Have started limping 22-77, maybe 88 & 99 UTG and then calling a raise w/ set odds. Found when I raised these, was getting 3-bet enough times (esp from shorties) that destroyed any set odds and forced a fold. By limping, these same players raise which I can call and still be eff 15:1+. I know the "never limp UTG" mantra... but is my thought process of with this one?

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

It's fine if you balance it with occasionally limping other holdings.

I've been thinking about this a lot, and just posted this: EP Limping Question. I guess my question is what other hands to mix in, and under what conditions.

Originally Posted by reDZill4

limping is a bad habit dont start this early.

True, in general. But both Sarbox and I play pretty Taggy styles without much limping at all, even LP. And we both have 100k hands + of winning under our belts. I think I'm on his page with this. Limping a little ought to be +EV, even at microstakes, and will help us learn to add another dimension to our play for higher levels.

I'm a novice as some of you will know, but I've found some of the best success I've had is with pretty weak hands that I've limped in with that have developed.

e.g. 5 6, or 3, 5 - generally if theres potential for a straight I'll go in and see what happens, I end up having to fold far many than actually come out of course, but when they do come I've often cleared xpot from about 4/5 players at the table.

*caveat, i'm only playing freemoney - haven't progressed to real money yet.

Limping small pocket pairs (22-99) is fine at 5NL and 10NL because it makes it much much cheaper to set hunt in case someone 3 bets you. When you move up in limits you have to modify it though.

Originally Posted by sarbox68

6max, $10NL. Have started limping 22-77, maybe 88 & 99 UTG and then calling a raise w/ set odds. Found when I raised these, was getting 3-bet enough times (esp from shorties) that destroyed any set odds and forced a fold. By limping, these same players raise which I can call and still be eff 15:1+. I know the "never limp UTG" mantra... but is my thought process of with this one?

Who is the guy 3betting? if its a semi-loose or loose aggressive, than you should be 4 betting light or floating the flop. if it's a tight player, you should be looking at your notes to see how he stacks off. if he stacks off any TPTK or overpair, you don't have to wait to get 15:1 because you know he'll stack off PERIOD. call the 3bet and bet the flop if you hit. he'll gladly push in the rest of his stack. if it's an opponent that can release those types of hands, there's no real point in set-mining period. The point of this is you don't know who's going to do what when you're UTG. If you limp, you're losing value to the nits that will limp behind for cheap but would've otherwise folded to an open-raise. you lose value to the aggressive players, because the pot is going to be alot smaller. the larger the pot, the more tempted they are to c-bet the flop regardless if they hit, since they have position. but, if they're observant and see what you've limped UTG, they might change the way they play based on board texture. But, if you play UTG pretty much the same way, they won't have that kind of read. so basically, play all UTG hands the same. Why? Nobody knows what you have besides you. They don't know you're holding 22-77. you could just as easily be holding KK/AA. the point is, since you're first to act and will be giving information away first. you should give as little as possible. this makes it harder for your opp to put you on a hand, and more likely to make a mistake.

cliff notes: limping UTG can change dynamics of preflop action, causing few positive effects, except maybe pot control on the flop. and set odds don't matter preflop unless you're up against an unknown villian.

I'd like to see someone do a real comparison on which is better (limping vs betting from utg and utg+1) I have 50K hands at 5NL 6max limping 22-99 from the 1st two spots that we could compare it to if someone has all non limping stats.