jumping to 25NL

I have a problem...

I just hit 20 BIs for 25nl, so I have $500 to work with right now. Is this a reasonable amount to play at at this level? I played by a 25BI rule before but even if I drop 5BI it wouldn't be much different than if I waited until 25BI or $625. Either way I'd lose the same amount of money and have to drop down.

Thoughts? I would feel a bit nervous, but if this is pretty standard that would go away. It's just a very large jump in money.

Originally Posted by ArcadianRock

I have a problem...

I just hit 20 BIs for 25nl, so I have $500 to work with right now. Is this a reasonable amount to play at at this level? I played by a 25BI rule before but even if I drop 5BI it wouldn't be much different than if I waited until 25BI or $625. Either way I'd lose the same amount of money and have to drop down.

Thoughts? I would feel a bit nervous, but if this is pretty standard that would go away. It's just a very large jump in money.

Now would be a good time to start increasing your bankroll requirements, until you overcome this thought.

Maybe post some stats too to get some feedback on anything you need to work on that might put you at a larger disadvantage as you move up.

Good idea, here are some stats.



What else would you need to see in order to get an idea? I have PT but lord knows I don't know how to utilize it properly.

I think you should give 25 NL a shot, but set a lower stop loss.

Set a stop loss of 2 to 3 buy ins and stick to it. If you go down that much, take a day or two off and then play 10 NL again until you're back up to $500.

I did it like this the last time I moved up to 25NL and it worked fine. It didn't work so great when I moved up to 50NL. Next time I move up to 25NL, I'll do it the exact same way.

You might try this: whenever I move up, I have an amount that I need to be over - you could use $500. So since the least # of tables I could possibly stand to play is 2 (might be more for some), I'd go 'til $550, then sit down with $25 on 2 tables. As I build up the roll, add another table for every $25 over $500 until you're at your normal number of tables. Obviously if you have a losing session you're going back down (though hopefully only for a short bit) 'til you're back to your magic # u started with.

you could just take a shot and play a full session with whatever # of tables you want and after that come back to your old stakes and grind more moneys up

and when you have $625 you can move up "permanently" with a stop loss of 8 buy-ins instead

I've always gone with move up at 20 and down at 15, but I'm comfortable with that. Cant really say if its good or bad as I havnt tried otherwise. I'll probably make it higher for 200nl though, as I'd be less comfortable there, so I guess my advice would be only go for it if you're comfortable with it.

A version of iopq's advice would be to check the 25nl tables before a session, and if you can find some really good tables, take a shot, otherwise play 10nl for the session.

I think you will need to open up your game a little with respect to both you VPIP and PFR range.

Originally Posted by Kits

I think you will need to open up your game a little with respect to both you VPIP and PFR range.

yeah I forgot to mention that

you should have 30% VPIP on the button at least
I mean, you have position, bad players in the blinds that are willing to play the same crappy cards you have but OOP and playing fit or fold
and it doesn't matter that much if people are limping because same thing applies, you're IP and a better player

I mean it's not like you have tons of raises in front of you I don't see any reason NOT to play your button when you have ANY potential on the flop
same thing somewhat applies in the CO, but I would almost always raise/3b when I enter the pot from the CO because I don't want to play OOP if button enters the pot

and holy shit you have higher PFR from SB than BU
that's fundamentally wrong

I suggest moving down to $10NL until you build your bankroll up to $750 @ which point you can give $25NL another shot. 20 Buy-ins is just not enough money to handle the swings @ any buy-in in my opinion under optimal conditions, let alone when you're on a downswing.

What's a good list of hands that can be opened on the button?

Also, is it reasonable that I'm losing so much money with the BB?

Originally Posted by Jason

I suggest moving down to $10NL until you build your bankroll up to $750 @ which point you can give $25NL another shot. 20 Buy-ins is just not enough money to handle the swings @ any buy-in in my opinion under optimal conditions, let alone when you're on a downswing.

this

Nothing worse than moving up then having variance knock the living shit out of you at just the wrong time.

EZ game

UTG: 55+,AQs+,,AQo+
UTG+1: 44,AJs,KQs
MP1: 33,AJo, KQo
MP2: 22,ATs,KJs-KTs,QTs+,JTs
HJ: A9s-A8s,ATo,KJo-KTo,QTo+,JTo
CO: A7s-A2s,T9s,98s,87s,76s,65s,54s
BU: K9s-K2s,J9s,T8s,97s,86s,75s,64s, A9o-A2o

Also, I recently moved up. I also thought about taking the shot at $500, but it felt a lil short so I waited til $600. I felt a lot more comfortable.

Originally Posted by ArcadianRock

What's a good list of hands that can be opened on the button?

Also, is it reasonable that I'm losing so much money with the BB?

Well, against two 8/4 nits I would say ATC for a minraise
against 12/10 tags anything that's suited and semi-connected like say 85s or maybe just connected like 98o or suited kings/aces
against fish any two cards above a 9

so against people who are going to fold a lot play hands that make a lot of draws, against people who don't fold much play hands that make lots of top pairs

I wouldn't agree with dranger because he posted pre-set ranges for each position, when we should be adjusting to our opponents
However, his opening range is better than whatever you're doing now

Obviously the guide dranger gave is only a guide, obv you mix it up depending on who is at the table, in the blind whatever. But when ur mass tabling you do need some kind of framework to work from.

a 30% vpip on the button is pretty loose for FR.

30% ATS is ok.

Originally Posted by Muzzard

Obviously the guide dranger gave is only a guide, obv you mix it up depending on who is at the table, in the blind whatever. But when ur mass you do need some kind of framework to work from.

a 30% vpip on the button is pretty loose.

30 ATS is ok.

When the action gets to you you will see a bunch of limpers
Nothing wrong with seeing a flop on the button with J8s

Originally Posted by iopq

Originally Posted by ArcadianRock

What's a good list of hands that can be opened on the button?

Also, is it reasonable that I'm losing so much money with the BB?

Well, against two 8/4 nits I would say ATC for a minraise
against 12/10 tags anything that's suited and semi-connected like say 85s or maybe just connected like 98o or suited kings/aces
against fish any two cards above a 9

beautiful!

i don't know much about FR, but it seems unusual to win 20% of your hands from the BB while only winning 8% from the BU.

Originally Posted by iopq

Originally Posted by Muzzard

Obviously the guide dranger gave is only a guide, obv you mix it up depending on who is at the table, in the blind whatever. But when ur mass you do need some kind of framework to work from.

a 30% vpip on the button is pretty loose.

30 ATS is ok.

When the action gets to you you will see a bunch of limpers
Nothing wrong with seeing a flop on the button with J8s

I just don't see how, if he's going to open up a little say 15/12 at the loosest, how he'll be able to play 30 of hands on the button. Personally I play a fair bit tighter than this, around 12/10-14/12, but historically closer to 12/10 and my vpip is nowhere near 30% on the button.

I'm pretty sure there aren't many good winning regs playing 50-200nl FR that play any looser than 17/15.

Sure there might be a fair bit of open limping at 25nl, but nowhere near what u are suggesting.

Originally Posted by iopq

Originally Posted by ArcadianRock

What's a good list of hands that can be opened on the button?

Also, is it reasonable that I'm losing so much money with the BB?

Well, against two 8/4 nits I would say ATC for a minraise
against 12/10 tags anything that's suited and semi-connected like say 85s or maybe just connected like 98o or suited kings/aces
against fish any two cards above a 9

so against people who are going to fold a lot play hands that make a lot of draws, against people who don't fold much play hands that make lots of top pairs

I wouldn't agree with dranger because he posted pre-set ranges for each position, when we should be adjusting to our opponents
However, his opening range is better than whatever you're doing now

I'm not saying for him to follow this to a T, but it's good place to start. I rarely follow it anymore, like you said, its better to be reacting to the table conditions. But I DO use it (or something close to it) at a new table to start if they are a bunch of unknowns.

Well, I'm dropping back down to 10NL. Variance reared its ugly head. It wasn't bad play, just three bad hands occured.

Flopped a set, shoved, got beat by a straight
flopped a straight, shoved, got beat by a flush
flopped a full house, shoved, got beat by a bigger full house.

Just not my day, down 3 buy ins for $72.

I'm not griping, I knew the risks it just drives me nuts that it set me back a week in playing poker, maybe my luck will turn up to help me catch up to $500, but I think I'm going to wait until at least $550 now.

I've been running bad so I moved down to 10NL for a bit because I started playing worse after I'm taking all these beats. Ran okay for like 2 sessions at 10NL and decided to move back up. Then boom, set over set, flopped a straight and river paired, and down 2 bi. Man, I am just unlucky this month.

As for taking shots, I think you should take shots once you feel comfortable at your level and have a decent enough bankroll to take a shot. $500 for 25NL sounds fine. I took my shot when I was at $280 and figured I'd set a stoploss at $50. I found things to be just about the same as 10NL, haven't looked back till now. Need to plow through this bad streak =/

FWIW, 25nl plays "bigger" than 10nl in terms of bb's. The average pot at 25nl is more than 2.5x > than at 10nl. The average pot at 50nl is more than 2x > 25nl avg. You just have more players willing to raise it up.

I would suggest an increasing bankroll requirement after each stop-loss: bouncing around between $500 and $425 for 7 or 8 shots at 25nl is not really going to help you get better. Keep ratcheting up the bankroll a bit each time, imo, so you have some breathing room before you hit your stop loss. Maybe $500 at first, then $550 after a couple of failed shots, then maybe $600. At each step, you'll know more and have a better shot at gaining traction at 25nl before variance kicks you in the groin.

If you use sound br management, poker will promote you when you deserve it and have earned it.

Originally Posted by Muzzard

Originally Posted by iopq

Originally Posted by Muzzard

Obviously the guide dranger gave is only a guide, obv you mix it up depending on who is at the table, in the blind whatever. But when ur mass you do need some kind of framework to work from.

a 30% vpip on the button is pretty loose.

30 ATS is ok.

When the action gets to you you will see a bunch of limpers
Nothing wrong with seeing a flop on the button with J8s

I just don't see how, if he's going to open up a little say 15/12 at the loosest, how he'll be able to play 30 of hands on the button. Personally I play a fair bit tighter than this, around 12/10-14/12, but historically closer to 12/10 and my vpip is nowhere near 30% on the button.

I'm pretty sure there aren't many good winning regs playing 50-200nl FR that play any looser than 17/15.

Sure there might be a fair bit of open limping at 25nl, but nowhere near what u are suggesting.

good 17/15 regs are probably 30+ vpip OTB even at NL200

i think this is being covered from what i see, but...

is 13/9 poker, on the flipping button, what we've gotten down to these days? how do you guys not shoot yourselves? i know the full ring game is basically waiting for aces to match up with kings, today, but jeez.

that seems SUPER rocky, to me. am i off base, or are all the 10NL and 25NL TAGregs playing this damned tight?

Originally Posted by Chopper

i think this is being covered from what i see, but...

is 13/9 poker, on the flipping button, what we've gotten down to these days? how do you guys not shoot yourselves? i know the full ring game is basically waiting for aces to match up with kings, today, but jeez.

that seems SUPER rocky, to me. am i off base, or are all the 10NL and 25NL TAGregs playing this damned tight?

Well, some of the "regs" at 10nl/25nl DO play that tight, but thats def not the norm. I play 25/20ish OTB and I play 13/10 overall so... idk if that tells you anything lol.

Sorry to hear the shot didnt go well, but awesome to hear you moved back down. The discipline to stick to your guns on stuff like that really is key. GL building back up and taking the next shot!

Originally Posted by Chopper

i think this is being covered from what i see, but...

is 13/9 poker, on the flipping button, what we've gotten down to these days? how do you guys not shoot yourselves? i know the full ring game is basically waiting for aces to match up with kings, today, but jeez.

that seems SUPER rocky, to me. am i off base, or are all the 10NL and 25NL TAGregs playing this damned tight?

Where I've been playing, that's spot on for FR. Limp/call with pocket pairs lower than JJ (and sometimes JJ) with a fold on the flop unless they hit their set is pretty much normal too.

I just keep telling myself that I've got to move to a bigger site. One with more than like four or five tables during the day, so I can avoid these people...

Originally Posted by Chopper

i know the full ring game is basically waiting for aces to match up with kings, today, but jeez....that seems SUPER rocky, to me. am i off base, or are all the 10NL and 25NL TAGregs playing this damned tight?

But on the flip side, you can 46-table FR for a 0.00093 ptBB/100 win rate on each table...

Originally Posted by Robb

Originally Posted by Chopper

i know the full ring game is basically waiting for aces to match up with kings, today, but jeez....that seems SUPER rocky, to me. am i off base, or are all the 10NL and 25NL TAGregs playing this damned tight?

But on the flip side, you can 46-table FR for a 0.00093 ptBB/100 win rate on each table...

funny you mention that, i have a friend that 24-tabled a few sessions (22k hands in about 2 days) and earned a 40+ by only pushing JJ+/AK/AQs at 2NL by buying in shortish. it paid about 8/hr. thats more than most players make quadding 50NL, and certainly 25NL.

from what i remember, and i could be wrong, but its hard to make even 5/hr at 25NL if you are beating the game fairly soundly.

Originally Posted by Chopper

8/hr. thats more than most players make quadding 50NL

lol, u mad?

whats with all the porn pics anyway w8 for the right time to move up