Journey from 2nl to 10nl - a retrospective study for noobs.

Greetings nano grinders. I have been meaning to write this for some time now: a retrospective look at how i survived and came through the two most ugly stakes in poker: 2 and 5nl. I say ugly coz you hate being stuck down there in the darkness with all the chimps. 10nl is similar but you're still not getting rakeback or decent FPP or anything. So the journey continues... but anywho....

This post is for those stuck at the lower stakes btw. Not just me blabbing to all the 25nl/50nl about how to play poker

Ok, so here's my graph thus far:



God it looks much prettier on my non wide-screen monitor. Like a fuckin rocket. Ah well. So, this graph tells a story. That's why i posted it.

I began my bankroll with 40$, played some SNGs and worked that roll nice up to $25 (sarcasm). Then i met a chap called Stacks (can not remember how) but, because of my total obsessive enthusiasm, i tend to attract teachers into my life coz teachers LOVE enthusiasm (...hint!). It's always been like that for me, i'm a very keen learner if what i want to chase can almost guarantee glory.

Anyway... he suggested cash was where the money was at, so i read the beginner's digest coz first I had to learn just HOW one made money from cash... to me it made no sense when i could just fold my way into the bubble at tourneys

So, i started there and took my $25 to $2nl and bought in for $2. Was breakeven, as you can see, for the first 2k hands. Then lifted off for the next 2k hands. And almost broke even again for the next 8 or so thousand hands.

I then had like 4 months off and came back with a mysterious deposit in my account to the tune of $40 (a forgotten bonus) and combining that with a few wins meant i was actually ready for $5 all of a sudden. I was shitting myself, my first move up. All this time i had been employing THE MOST PRIMITIVE poker skills. I think the only thing that i used for 2nl was understanding why we raise, and also getting a feel for certain tells when someone has real strength. My starting hands were also pretty good Vs all the 2nl donk fish ranges. Simple as really.

So... lesson one... don't limp much and if you do, do it with decent hands. Ax suited is one. Small pocket pair is another. Hell, if your table is reeeeally passive, you CAN open limp at 2nl, there i said it. But... only if you're sure it's profitable i.e. people are NOT raising much at all and there's a villain that will call down anything. This can be profitable.

In general though, raise good. 3x bb from the cut off and button plus one bb for each limper... anything before that should be 4x plus one for each limper. Raising clears the path a little, if you get heads up with your strong aces, your equity increases niiiicely.

Get pokerstove if you don't already have it. It free. Learn how to use it.

Next point. Get poker tracker. It's your bread and butter. You need to spot those fish at a glace, especially when you start multi-tabling. Again, INVEST in learning how to use this software. There is no poker without it. Get the trial for like 60 days. Learn to use the HUD, review your hands.

Next point. Watch videos. This is huge and will open your eyes. Spendas are the best, he has free ones here and cheap ones on Grinderschool.com. The free ones here should be enough to get you through at least 2nl. But note: 2nl plays mad at times and don't expect the donk fish to react normally to your relatively educated plays. They may shove over you with your made hand just because it's fun, then accidentally make 2 pair on the river.

Next point. The micro fish... ah they're a beautiful bunch. Love them, hate them, they fill your $belly$ and sometimes empty it. You need to learn that micro fish don't play to evolve their poker career, they play for the HELL of it. The call coz it's only $0.50c instead of folding coz it's like TEN big blinds. If they lose it's mildly frustrating but they can just deposit another few bucks. Their game is not your game.

Ok so, i started 5nl and crushed it (see the sudden growth at 11.5k up to 19k? that was 5nl. I went into 10nl with $210 or 21 buy-ins and then hit a couple of shit all-ins and dropped down. From then on i experienced a little something called... variance. More on that later.

How i beat 5nl: so i had a decent pre flop game, stopped open limping and learned more about position. But this downswing plus breakeven stretch had me studying furiously. I watched a lot of videos and moaned a LOT on the forums. Things that happened here (the downswing at 19k):

1) getting no decent cards for ages
2) getting good cards UTG and getting like 4 callers and missing
3) getting KK in the bb and everyone folds to me
4) floping a full house multiway and everyone folds to my first bet
5) getting rivered repeatedly
6) being on constant tilt and not playing my best

Thing is, i thought i was doing 'something wrong' but for 5nl i was playing ok enough. It was just a spate of shit variance, it does not take rocket science to beat 5, so you think you're doing ok skills wise but still losing to fish, just check your sample size. Now, variance don't mean SHIT to noobs, it's incomprehensible... so here, comprehend:

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...st-t84399.html

This is a little article written by Outlaw about just how long it can take before you see a reliable trend in poker. Just to note though, you don't have to wait till you've played a million hands, but if you're breaking even for 10k or 20k hands, it really can be just phasic. So don't post on here after your first 3k hands and tell us you suck! While that is true, all you can do is get in MORE hands and study. More hands, more study... rinse and repeat.

So, i then got sweated by Dranger who was playing 10 while i was playing 5 and he opened my eyes big time to a few things. At the same time someone suggested i play at night instead of the late afternoon, and after (see graph @ 28k) that i shot up, got sweated again by Robb, and arrived at $260 (again, Robb opened my eyes to value, see my breakeven stretch brainwashed me into thinking the villain aaaalways had it, so i would maybe not fire a third bullet on the river or get all in without massive hessitation even though i had trips etc). Upon his review we found my game suitable for 10nl stakes.

More on beating the last few $$ at 5nl...

If i say to you: position is important... and you don't go: FUCK yeah. You haven't understood position in poker. So go learn about it and go learn about how to cbet. Robb has a good post on this. Infact here it is, it also sharpens your poker tracker HUD skills:

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ng-t67647.html

So i was beginning to cut my limps right down. My stats went from like 30/8 to about 22/14. But note that at THESE stakes, limping is much more ok than higher stakes. A lot of the time you'll have 87s in the small blind and 4 people will limp... what are you gonna do?

And then i started to raise more from the CO and BU and get into cbetting. Cbetting + value towning stations is your bread and butter at these stakes. I also learned about BET SIZING. That is HUGE. You bet this many big blinds and he calls, 2 more big blinds and he folds, it can be that fragile as to how your hand plays out. Or x more bb and you end up almost pot committed by the river.

So, really all i needed and i think all you need to beat 2 and 5 is:

1. Good Pockertracker/HUD skills
2. Positional awareness
3. Good PF range
4. Bet sizing + getting value from stations
5. Cbetting
6. !!! make friends with other micro grinders and sweat eachother !!!
7. shit... table selection! forgot about that! Learn about table selection and only play against fish (see Robb's post about HUD stats)

Literally, if you understand the above to a half decent degree and play late at night, against the feesh, it's just a matter of time until you're shooting for 10nl. After that i can't help coz i've only just began settling into to that stake

Anyway, this post could go on but i've said just about enough. Just know that if you keep grinding, some day you'll have, at worst, a decent part time income that can be generated anywhere in the world that has an internet connection... at best? only dreams will tell!

Keep on destroying the agro punk fish donk bitches my fellow grinders. Oh and usual thanks to all my poker buddies, you know who you are, i'm always name dropping.

I'm the one that told you to try out playing at a different time of day, too fwiw lol. Good post man, and continue to pwn. See u at the 25enels.

Originally Posted by wonderland

So... lesson one... don't limp much and if you do, do it with decent hands. Ax suited is one. Small pocket pair is another. Hell, if your table is reeeeally passive, you CAN open limp at 2nl, there i said it. But... only if you're sure it's profitable i.e. people are NOT raising much at all and there's a villain that will call down anything. This can be profitable.

I definitely second your opinion of open limping not being quite as bad as it's made out to be in 2NL and 5NL. I actually wrote about that in my OP. A cheap flop is VERY easy to see in the 2NL and 5NL and can be all you need to stack your fellow opponent. Speculative hands are obviously the best kinds to open limp. However, I promised myself to stop this shitty habit in 10NL...and I did. I tried it a few times...but got punished for it by a raise in MP or LP. I won't be doing much (if any) open limping in 10NL.

Nice post. I basically agree with all your observations. Now let's go own 10NL!

Nice going. Your story is a little similar to how mine has gone, which I'll post more about at some point. I started with a $70 deposit, skipped 2NL and began with 5NL (outside BRM, yeah, but with a stop loss of $60 that I never crossed), and after tens of thousands of hands and 2 months of mixing cash games and tournies (to find which one I'm better at; I actually still don't know), I've earned just about $200. I like and agree with most of the stuff you said, although there are a couple things I want to add...

I wouldn't call the lowest stakes "ugly" as much as they are practice and a test of discipline. It really helps with patience and knowing what the chances are that you're ahead. I was kind of already used to this because I've played a lot of free games before where apathy is rocket high and you really need to pick your spots. I've also played home games at .25/.50 stakes, so that may have conditioned me to think in terms of bets compared to the pot instead of "wow that's a lot of money". At any stakes at all, you need to notice how people are playing and adjust in a way that benefits you. And if that adjustment is sticking to ABC poker, then so be it.

Maybe it's just because I've never felt like playing more than 4 tables at the same time, but I haven't had any software to support me during the games I've played and I've survived fine, so I wouldn't say it's a requirement. It can really help with identifying an opponent's traits faster and finding what hands you're losing too much on, but it's still possible to do with your own eyes. I am eventually going to buy one of those things, but probably at around $500. This is mostly to discipline myself and combine my own reads with the software's when I finally do get it.

Sometimes really learning the game may be better than extra profit. There are times where I could have grinded more NL Holdem tables but instead I tested out different kinds of limits or other games like stud and draw, spending a day or two reading the strategies on those games, and testing them out. Usually I still profited, although not as fast. That can also really help with discipline on poker in general, thinking about what people are representing, and knowing when you're beat, even if it is a minimum raise on the last round of betting.

Everything else is good though. Keep it up.

Also, you're now at the NL stakes I'm at. Maybe we'll cross paths soon.

lol bragggg

nice work though you seem to be coming along quite well and your learning has definately accelerated a bit

Originally Posted by wonderland

More on beating the last few $$ at 5nl...

If i say to you: position is important...

This.

I was taking forever to grind my way through 5nl. It was only when Muzzard (thanks mate) made me realize how ridiculously tight I was playing on the HJ, CO and Button that I took off. 2 weeks of Iso-Raising and then C-Betting limpers, often with any two, and I was ready for 10nl. Ez game.

Also, it's totally personal but I think I'm in the spenda camp when it comes to HUDs - I've chosen to leave them alone until at least 25nl.

Nice post dude.

oops! SORRY DRANGER! you're totally right, it was you. I got you confuse with Keith.

Need more noobs watching this post. Y'know tho, i tend not to find 2nlers in here much.

Glad i'm not saying anything too outrageous

Micro! aint a brag! lol, how dare you i pissed away an hour of my night for the mini mini stakers to read this, pure love mate, not braggage. A brag would be if i'd have moved through 2 to 10 in less than FOUR months. That's a not so boastful length of time now is it?

Also, you're now at the NL stakes I'm at. Maybe we'll cross paths soon.

Doubt it, anyone who is better than half decent goes over my head. I just watching fish. If i see anyone with tag stats, there's usually mutual unspoken respect as we're both looking elsewhere.

lol.

Originally Posted by wonderland

Also, you're now at the NL stakes I'm at. Maybe we'll cross paths soon.

Doubt it, anyone who is better than half decent goes over my head. I just watching fish. If i see anyone with tag stats, there's usually mutual unspoken respect as we're both looking elsewhere.

lol.

I'm gonna come down to 10nl and bumhunt u lol. For realz.

This is a fantastic post. This post, and the posts/articles linked herein are dead on. I have found my study material for the next week. Many of the points listed I have learned the hard way. Many of the experiences (i.e. the 5 things that will happen during variance) are uncanny.

Well written as always, WL. Here's one 2NL'er who's walking in your footsteps, so don't give up posting for the little guys.

As my OP says, it's a slow road with work/family, but hope to grind more soon. Usually the only time I have is when I'm out of town with work but my laptop's small and the travel is tiring.

Had a chance to try out 6 tabling on the 22" screen at home finally. Sa-weeeet! Made in an hour ($10) what took me days on the laptop. Also it was Sunday night. It was like shooting donks in a barrel.

nice post, worth reading, and

Originally Posted by wonderland

Just know that if you keep grinding, some day you'll have, at worst, a decent part time income that can be generated anywhere in the world that has an internet connection... at best? only dreams will tell!

amen

holy shit wonderland sickest graph i have ever seen i dont understand how a poker graph can look like that? lol

do u play 6 max or 9? pretty sure its 9 but have u played 6 what do u think about it and what are your reasons for playing what

He plays 6-max. And what do you mean uve never seen a graph like that?

Originally Posted by T-Rex

holy shit wonderland sickest graph i have ever seen i dont understand how a poker graph can look like that? lol

Ummm.. standard micro graph imo.

Ummm.. standard micro graph imo.

true. I think he was being sarcastic tho? it aint sick. It's ok though. I wouldn't quite say standard if we take the micro pool and look at where 50% of people are at.

But perseverance was the key through the flat liners. I mean i was always jealous of other people's graphs coz mine went flat much of the time.

new point 1: Bankroll management.

I advocate a kinda new system of BRM, it aint new but it's a slant on the standard practise and utilizes psychology. You shoot for 20+10 buy-ins. Unless you're on a fantastic heater, for each stake you play you can expect to have a horrible downswing of around ten buy-ins. This isn't just '30 buy-ins' it's 20+10 to account for the downswing. Should one NOT happen, bonus. But should one happen, you're covered a PORTION of your roll FOR it. Just my little idea to help with tilty downswings.

new point 2: Downswing management/Fish Holocaust

- beaten 2nl?
- been crushing 5 but just got stuck on a downswing/break even stretch?
- love killing fish?

Then this could be for you. At times when my 5nl was going shit, i would recoup some losses by going down to 2nl, opening up 4 tables and destroying the fish. You'd be surprised how MUCH more awful their play is than 5. It's very noticeable. No one raises pre flop, no one folds, no one cares! If you're raised post flop, it's usually with garbage. Some reason this wasn't all SO obvious when i was at 2 but once you've gone up, learned and come back it's easy to make a quick few bucks.

My tip is to buy in for $5 on each table and be very very agro but also fold when you know you're beat. Eventually they won't know what the fuck you're holding and will go all in lots. At one stage i was making more money from 2 than 5! Just bait them, make them tilt and you'll take their money. Again, to them it's just a few bucks, to you it's your roll, your evolution.

But perseverance was the key through the flat liners. I mean i was always jealous of other people's graphs coz mine went flat much of the time.

I yet to see any real noticeable "downswing" in the graph. I see the -4 buyins at 19k. That doesn't really constitute a downswing. It's just a loss, which is going to happen at pretty regular intervals.

yeah laugh out loud because there never was a downswing

when you're playing pissy little shit piss stakes with pissy shit fish who are basing their calls off the fukkin direction of the wind AND YOU LOSE 8 buyins in one day then breakeven for 10k hands. That may or may not qualify as a downswing... but it'll fukkin do.

... sorry, still tilting from tonight's sesh. Typed that with my eyeballs.

La la.... poker is nice... we can all win, now hurry along and do your studies my fellow noobs... i feel unwell. I'm going to bed *collapse*

where is this 8 buy-in downswing. I see 4 at the most, which occurred once in 30k hands.

Hmm, i think i miscalculated. It was 6 buy-ins, i count them as 6 because i played 10 for so short a time that it 'felt' like 6 @ 5 when it was 2x10nl losses and 2x5nl losses. But in one day.

My point though is also how it hit me first time, i used to think losing 2 or 3 buy-ins was like: wooah, call the poker police, there's something wrong.

People recover from much worse though, look at dranger, he lost 8 AT his new stake, the made double the loss back in about 10 days.

Tilt owns my ass though, i'd put money on me being the most emotionally effected person who commonly uses this forum. So that time was hard in relative terms, plus it was my first contraction of poker aids. So i had no experience of what it involved.

Originally Posted by wonderland

Hmm, i think i miscalculated. It was 6 buy-ins, i count them as 6 because i played 10 for so short a time that it 'felt' like 6 @ 5 when it was 2x10nl losses and 2x5nl losses. But in one day.

My point though is also how it hit me first time, i used to think losing 2 or 3 buy-ins was like: wooah, call the poker police, there's something wrong.

People recover from much worse though, look at dranger, he lost 8 AT his new stake, the made double the loss back in about 10 days.

Tilt owns my ass though, i'd put money on me being the most emotionally effected person who commonly uses this forum. So that time was hard in relative terms, plus it was my first contraction of poker aids. So i had no experience of what it involved.

I'd put money that you're not. All of us suffer our own special forms of tilt, but all of us tilt. Read Tony Angelo some time. I like his perspective on poker, but especially on playing "tiltless" poker.

Trust me, though, we all face the same game which tends to produce the same angry moments and frustrations in all of us.

I'd put money on me being the less tilting person on the forum. But even I sometimes feel like 3betting because I lost a pot on another table.

I doubt you are the most easily tilted person dude, you just VOICE your tilt more often lol. There is a difference. I tilt like a mofo sometimes, but I settle this by firing up a game of NHL 09 and throwing huge body checks like they are going out of style. Theres so much satisfaction in crushing some canadian/russian into the boards...

Rub one out. Seriously the natural tilt be gone.

No...seriously.

Originally Posted by BooG690

Rub one out. Seriously the natural tilt be gone.

No...seriously.

what if you go on a really bad downswing
will you tilt really hard after a certain point?

need to stay on course thread-wise but just for the record, i don't think i tilt in terms of: right, that's it, i'm gonna throw my chips at everyone now, i more mean that i go BATSHIT crazy. I've mentioned before that i've been soon angry i've seen stars!

Helmuth once told of his online poker friend who had a bad beat and threw his laptop out the window and into his swimming pool.

Ummm.. That's tilt wonderland.