hand reading?

i dont know where this will go because its such a complex subject, but maybe we can get pointed in the right direction.

we know to assign ranges instead of "he has KJ." and play against the range, but...

what are some of the easier tips you know of when assigning ranges?

be specific, be general. just be something.

I read souls

This is something I'd like to see replies to as well... as a noob often I see a K-J-7 flop and think my opponent has to have K's or J's to be betting... this is often not the case and I dump out of hands I should have potentially stayed in... (ok, it isn't a coherent example, but you get my point I hope)

I would say experience. Like hunting, there is no set way to find what you're hunting, you gotta learn.

Use reads/stats on people. E.G. A guy has never raised you ever before in the last 18 hours you've been playing with him, and all of a sudden he is raising and 4 betting you on this hand, obviously he is going to be at the strong end of his range that you have him on.

Stuff like that, I'm not that great at it, but that is my basic knowledge on the subject.

unless you have an extensive number of hands to judge people you are better off with ranges broken down by limp versus range with these opening up as you get closer and closer to the button. For example at the $5 and $11 SNG level it may be very common for people to open raise from UTG, UTG+1 or MP1 with a range like AQ+, 88+ but the limp (or call a limp) range from the Hijack, CO or button may be 22+, 89s+, ATo+ while their raising range from this position could be the same as the EP raising range.

Once you are able to assign ranges based on position and action (open limp, call w/limpers, raise, etc.) then you can assess how you are doing against that particular "seat", not player in post flop play.

In general I assign a pretty tight range to early position raisers and late position re-raises then open up that range as the position gets closer to the button and/or the blinds get larger.

Be observant when ppl show down.
Make notes.
Look for certain lines, when opponent has the goods. Do they donk sets, play call-raise or call-call-raise?
Learn to read your HUD well.

Play HU. Seriously. Verbalize your thoughts when u play, assign a range to him every hand. Try to figure out, WHY u´re giving him a certain range, what patterns actually made u think he´s holding this or that.
Leave table and look for a softer opponent if u can´t predict his ranges precisely after 45min

Thanks for the quick responses, I'm trying to learn to do that, one thing I think would be helpful is a HUD but being a low limit player, with a very minimal BR at this point, that isn't an option. I hope to hone my skills soon though and raise that BR up to respectable levels, where I can consider some HUDs and other tools.

One of the tips I liked (I think this was from Aokrongly first, not sure), is that betting is the same as a conversation. What you're trying to do is interpret that conversation. A bet is "I really like my hand", a call is "I kind of like my hand or I think it can improve", a check is "I dont like my hand", stuff like that. Of course, just like any conversation, someone could be lieing...

The trick to hand reading is to take what message is in the betting (and you're looking at all streets, not just the current one) and think of which hands make sense and would fit into whats being said in the betting.

Get his PF range (which will probably be wide) then cut hands out of it according to information you receive.


Of course, that's way easier said than done!

Originally Posted by Ash256

Get his PF range (which will probably be wide) then cut hands out of it according to information you receive.


Of course, that's way easier said than done!

this is what i was getting at. any tips in the process of "narrowing" the range?

Great thread idea Chopper, i really need help in this.
Hopefully a lot of people respond.
Thanks...

I think its pretty much been laid out.

Come up with an initial range based on their history, if noone, revert to a 'default' range.

Eliminate hands from that range that dont make sense based on the action (or select the ones that do make sense, depending on how your mind works best).

Thats your range.

Originally Posted by wesrman

Great thread idea Chopper, i really need help in this.
Hopefully a lot of people respond.
Thanks...

you said it man

i need alot of help in this area

all right. then, i'll do it.

i suck at this, but lets try it this way for awhile.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (7 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG ($47.70)
MP1 ($36.40)
Hero ($24.40)
CO ($8.95)
Button ($23.35)
SB ($26)
BB ($25)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with T, K.
UTG calls $0.25, MP1 calls $0.25, Hero calls $0.25, 1 fold, Button calls $0.25, 1 fold, BB checks.

Flop: ($1.35) K, J, K (5 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets $1.5, Button folds, BB folds, UTG calls $1.50, MP1 folds.

what ranges are you putting villains on right now? i dont have any reads on him that are worth a shit.

limped pot pre....assuming everyone has shit for cards.

trips on flop. no brainer to lead here. overbet slightly and get a caller....hmmmmm.

caller went check/call overbet pot. not AA, would have raised pre most likely. no KK, QQ, JJ, AK...same reasons. AQ? KJ? KXs? QJ? QT? pp's? maybe TT, but i cant see worse on this flop.

what else? maybe QT doesnt get in here pre because i cant see it limping UTG, but it WOULD check/call a flop bet, and i have no reads...so i assume its in there now.

anyone want to make changes? add some things i've left out?

if we have to do this ^^^^^ over and over and over with different hands, we'll get there.

just glad to see some others are in. ooooh, triple post....nice.

Please continue.
Very helpfull.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (8 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

UTG+1 ($11.05)
MP1 ($2.55)
MP2 ($4.11)
Hero ($4.93)
Button ($3.78)
SB ($6.44)
BB ($8.37)
UTG ($9.67)

Preflop: Hero is CO with , .
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $0.1, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.45, 3 folds, UTG+1 calls $0.35.

Flop: ($0.97) , , (2 players)
UTG+1 bets $0.1, Hero raises to $0.9, UTG+1 calls $0.80.

Turn: ($2.77) (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $3.58 (All-In), UTG+1 folds.

Final Pot: $-0.81

hold on. lets try and to this one hand at a time. otherwise we will confuse the shit out of ourselves.

if there are a few hands going, though, we could refer to them by HERO's hole cards.

for instance, mine would be the KcTc hand.

wes' is the AcAd hand.

and, i think it would be better to avoid showing the WHOLE hand at first. just show the flop...we'll narrow it down. then, show turn...we'll narrow it down. then, show river for final decisions?

Sorry Chopper, if u want i can erase it until u are done with your hand???

Think u might get more response if u move this to another section???
I'm not sure a lot of the people that would have a lot to say here check the beginner section that often. Just a thought.

these i think are possible hands for the villian
i suck at this, but i'll at least try

Aj,qj,j10 or they have the 4th k and are "slow playing" it
our bet looks like we are trying to steal the pot
which is how i would bet it

KTs

Without reads we wont assume UTG is open limping with complete crap here, so lets look at the kinds of hands that would limp and narrow it down.

All PPs. KQ, KJ, QJ, QT, TJ, Ax, SCs non-broadway are probably the bulk of his PF range. Of those, which do we see c/c'ing our flop overbet? KJ and KQ would likely either bet or c/r here. QJ and TJ would flat call. Ax might flat call thinking they have a good kicker if you're bluffing. I'd say PPs 66+ could call also. PPs love to call these paired flops, but generally the really low ones will still fold. If he's come along with really crap cards on the flop he might have a K with no kicker here sometimes too.

So of his range we'd believe we're ahead of everything except an unlikely KQ, or a slowplayed KK,JJ. We have reason to believe we're ahead of his range, so our plan should be to bet for value now.


AA

You have AA, you dont need to read his hand!

Ok, seriously (although not far off), UTG has raised PF and called your 3-bet. Very unlikely to have a 5 or 6 except for some slim chance he's overplayed 55 or 66. Fairly unlikely though. So his range is mostly PPs > 66 (probably TT+ since he raised pre, but some people raise almost all PPs). Something like an AK or AQ that doesnt want to admit its beaten is also possible. This means we're almost certain we're ahead, so I dont get the turn push. We want value here. If you think you might be beaten, theres not a chance in hell he's folding here with a boat, so all you've done is cost yourself value from something like QQ or AK. Our only decision is whether we believe he'll call a turn bet and river push, or if he's more likely to fold to a turn bet but call a river bet.

Originally Posted by Chopper

all right. then, i'll do it.

i suck at this, but lets try it this way for awhile.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (7 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG ($47.70)
MP1 ($36.40)
Hero ($24.40)
CO ($8.95)
Button ($23.35)
SB ($26)
BB ($25)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with T, K.
UTG calls $0.25, MP1 calls $0.25, Hero calls $0.25, 1 fold, Button calls $0.25, 1 fold, BB checks.

Flop: ($1.35) K, J, K (5 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets $1.5, Button folds, BB folds, UTG calls $1.50, MP1 folds.

what ranges are you putting villains on right now? i dont have any reads on him that are worth a shit.

UTG limp could mean a very wide range so I won't go there (Bjs's range above is probably pretty close).

Now the flop. I can't see villian having a K here as he probably would have check/raised. I could see a hand with a J in it or T's, maybe 9's or someone who was hoping to limp/3bet Q's or A's pre-flop and is now scared of the two K's.

Net, net....there are numerous hands here that villian would check/call on the flop with and you are ahaed of just about every one of them.

Originally Posted by bjsaust

KTs

slowplayed KK,

I think we can take KK, as hands NOT in his range.

lol, I'm a dumbarse. Yes, you're right.

Umm, so that leaves KQ, KJ, and JJ, and we'd expect all of those to raise flop.

Originally Posted by Chopper

all right. then, i'll do it.

i suck at this, but lets try it this way for awhile.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (7 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG ($47.70)
MP1 ($36.40)
Hero ($24.40)
CO ($8.95)
Button ($23.35)
SB ($26)
BB ($25)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with T, K.
UTG calls $0.25, MP1 calls $0.25, Hero calls $0.25, 1 fold, Button calls $0.25, 1 fold, BB checks.

Flop: ($1.35) K, J, K (5 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets $1.5, Button folds, BB folds, UTG calls $1.50, MP1 folds.

what ranges are you putting villains on right now? i dont have any reads on him that are worth a shit.

His range here is any two. DUCY?

a) microstakes
b) no pf raise
c) no real draws on flop, you hold a K making him holding a K less probable

When in a limped pot, you'll find yourself playing a very dangerous version of "The Guessing Game" and will usually be fucked unless you happened to have flopped, turned, or rivered absolute gin

i'm getting it all in with the chopper hand

weeeeeeeeee ben

I think he means to take away KK because we have one and 2 are on the board, making him having KK impossible.

lets continue the KTs hand, as i wasnt done. i just wanted people to watch how we narrow a range as the hand moves onward with more information...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (7 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG ($47.70)
MP1 ($36.40)
Hero ($24.40)
CO ($8.95)
Button ($23.35)
SB ($26)
BB ($25)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with T, K.
UTG calls $0.25, MP1 calls $0.25, Hero calls $0.25, 1 fold, Button calls $0.25, 1 fold, BB checks.

Flop: ($1.35) K, J, K (5 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets $1.5, Button folds, BB folds, UTG calls $1.50, MP1 folds.

Turn: ($4.35) 8 (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $3.5, UTG calls $3.50.

did anything change?

of course, we picked up a redraw. i am 2 barreling here because i am WAY ahead of most of his range. but, lets realize that not much that called the flop is folding here. straight draws just got picked up by 99. and flush draws to any stoooooopid AXs just fell in there (although i think this is rather unlikely). i am pretty much looking to felt this hand right now, or at the very least string along whatever is still calling.

Not really no, except we removed KK from his range because we did a quick count during dealing and realised 5ks were unlikely...

Possibly can discount straight draws a little bit since its less likely for them to call an overbet and a 3/4 pot bet on the turn, but still possible.

Our main concern is a PP filling up, but his flat call discounts that.

Why would KJ raise this flop? I do not understand.

You dont understand why someone with the (near) nuts would raise at 25nl?

Hes probably looking at the AA hand.
Which is my fault i didnt realize chopper was going to add the rest of the hand.

I don't think you can rule out a strong K in the KTs hand, especially with the flop overbet. People love to slowplay trips.

With the turn C/C I think we are down to some J's, JJ+, QT, and Kx with an outside shot at 88. Gotta figure most other underpairs are giving up on the turn. I would almost expect a weaker K than yours to raise this turn, but can see KJ/JJ/K8/88 flat calling the turn. since we have no reads whatsoever we don't know if our opponent realizes he is out of position, or what that will mean when it comes to the river.

With no read whatsoever, I may check behind the river given the chance. I would hope that you would have at least a general feeling about whether or not our opponent is a total moron. That kind of knowledge could really help us play the river a lot better.

Noone said rule them out, what I said was they're unlikely based on the action. I think we probably lose value if we check behind on the river (assuming checked to us), but I dont hate it. I'm far from an expert on the correct lines to take.

this is not a river to check, imo. there is a lot worse that will still call. and on the river, something that has us beat will certainly announce itself.

the only thing that will shut me off betting this river for value is the 3rd club or straight card like an A. those will make me c/call a small river bet. but, if a blank hits i am valuebetting this river rather small, but wondering about what to do to a push...

so, here it is...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (7 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG ($47.70)
MP1 ($36.40)
Hero ($24.40)
CO ($8.95)
Button ($23.35)
SB ($26)
BB ($25)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with T, K.
UTG calls $0.25, MP1 calls $0.25, Hero calls $0.25, 1 fold, Button calls $0.25, 1 fold, BB checks.

Flop: ($1.35) K, J, K (5 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets $1.5, Button folds, BB folds, UTG calls $1.50, MP1 folds.

Turn: ($4.35) 8 (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $3.5, UTG calls $3.50.

River: ($11.35) 9 (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $5, UTG raises to $13.75, Hero ???


just what i suspected may happen, and this is where it is absolutely CRITICAL to know your opponent and his range. are we far enough ahead here? did he trap us? is he stupid?

this is sending a very strong message that our kicker may not be good enough here, imo. but, do we still beat his range hard enough to overcome this push...most times?

our read? K8 and K9 just got there...and they would have likely been only calling. QT just hit his open-ender. KJ had us the whole time. so did JJ. AA is likely not here, but may have called along the way. KQ may be in there.

the more i look at it, the more i dont like leading this river. is it a c/c or c/f? i think a check would show enough weakness to get AA, KX, naked J to pull the trigger on a bluff, but they wouldnt call a river bet most likely? therefore, i think we may have committed a cardinal sin, AGAINST LIKELY HOLDINGS, and bet when only better calls, but worse folds.

any disputes to the river mistake?

Thats a hard river. That hand stinks like it got there on the river. B/c you bet into your trip kings I can see him putting you a little weaker than you are. My gut says he's calling you with a worse K maybe %30 of the time and got there with a Q,10 draw %55 and a K,8/9 the other %15. Numbers are out of my ass but that's my read on this.


Great topic chopper

basically, after he CRes this river, we are ahead of K7-K2, busted flushes, and that is about it. And, honestly, I don't see a lot of busted flushes taking the chance on a CR. K7-2 is still possible, especially given the stakes, but I don't know. He played it the whole way like he has trips or a boat and didn't want to scare you off, and you don't beat a lot in that range.

Like I said, I would check behind on this river, and the reason is I would also probably call this raise.

Originally Posted by pgil

Like I said, I would check behind on this river, and the reason is I would also probably call this raise.

theres a statement i seem to hear a good bit that i NEVER understand.

how do you want to check-behind, but call his push?? that, to me, just seems like saying, "i want this to be small, but if he makes it really big, i will snap call."

please explain, if possible, and help me see this one cause i cant.

in the meantime, lets not forget this one...

Originally Posted by wesrman

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (8 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

UTG+1 ($11.05)
MP1 ($2.55)
MP2 ($4.11)
Hero ($4.93)
Button ($3.78)
SB ($6.44)
BB ($8.37)
UTG ($9.67)

Preflop: Hero is CO with , .
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $0.1, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.45, 3 folds, UTG+1 calls $0.35.

Flop: ($0.97) , , (2 players)
UTG+1 bets $0.1, Hero raises to $0.9, UTG+1 calls $0.80.

Turn: ($2.77) (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $3.58 (All-In), UTG+1 folds.

Final Pot: $-0.81

well, he liked it enough to minraise...which doesnt tell me much. i raised with AA, and he only called with a hand he raised....hmmmm? pp's and suited broadways are where i think first, but who really knows yet?

he donks the flop suggesting some sort of draw, weak overpair, or monster begging for a raise. w/o a read, i have no idea, so i raise it big because i think he's ahead and will call, and i can flush out monsters that were begging for a raise. kind of get more information...but only while i think i am very likely ahead.

but he calls still? can this guy let go of overpairs? am i starting to think about SIZING for stacks by river here? does he have A3s? i dont know how to put this guy on a range because he is playing this really, really weird.

turn comes, and we shove? i dont know if i can do that yet. but, i also see we only have $3.50 behind and need to make a large bet when he checks. i may bet $1.50 here and then put the rest in on river...try to get something more from JJ-KK and any stupid flush draws.

but, when pushing while we dont know if he can/will fold, we are likely still only getting called by the hands that beat us. this is the trick part of microstakes, imo. the range is still rather wide here, and we have no read that villain "cant fold overpairs." if i see that read in my notes...i MAY push here, but if he cant fold overpairs, why would i push? i dont see JJ or worse calling the push here, but they may have called a smaller bet.

wow. weird hand. i dont know where i stand....sometimes i push here, too, in an attempt to just end it now, BUT THAT IS A MISTAKE! we are likely so far ahead, or so far behind, we just need to bet for value and take our chances. dont blow out the crap that may call.

w/o stats or reads, we havent a clue where we are here, imo.

Originally Posted by Chopper

limped pot pre....assuming everyone has shit for cards.

trips on flop. no brainer to lead here. overbet slightly and get a caller....hmmmmm.

caller went check/call overbet pot. not AA, would have raised pre most likely. no KK, QQ, JJ, AK...same reasons. AQ? KJ? KXs? QJ? QT? pp's? maybe TT, but i cant see worse on this flop.

what else? maybe QT doesnt get in here pre because i cant see it limping UTG, but it WOULD check/call a flop bet, and i have no reads...so i assume its in there now.

anyone want to make changes? add some things i've left out?

Ok, i tend to overrate their hands, but I'm putting him on 3 Jacks. Reasoning... if he has trip K's it is down to kicker, and I'm playing it. If he pulls trip J's he's got the house... so he has us beat... what I can't determine easily and quickly enough is how often can he have caught that?

3 J's is definitely in there. but, its not the ONLY hand that is. therefore giving him credit for it, w/o more information, when we beat so much else is pulling the plug too early.

to determine that, you need a specific read. like "slowplays big hands" or "chases flush draws." those types of reads will help you narrow or widen his range...giving you more combinations to value your hand against. if your read on his range and tendencies is accurate enough, it just comes down to math.

i dont have any of those reads here, so i can only go off of how most players would play this hand with a range that makes common sense.

and, i am not great at that. that is why i started this thread. i want experienced players, and noobs to watch this and put in their two cents.

the only way we learn is to put ourselves out there, and get things wrong. oh, and get flamed for it...lol.

Originally Posted by bjsaust

You dont understand why someone with the (near) nuts would raise at 25nl?

No, why would KJ raise the flop when being bet into? Why not slowplay and get it all in on the turn or river?

Originally Posted by Chopper

Originally Posted by pgil

Like I said, I would check behind on this river, and the reason is I would also probably call this raise.

theres a statement i seem to hear a good bit that i NEVER understand.

how do you want to check-behind, but call his push?? that, to me, just seems like saying, "i want this to be small, but if he makes it really big, i will snap call."

please explain, if possible, and help me see this one cause i cant.

our hand has a lot of showdown value, and I am really really bad at folding hands like this, so I will most likely call pretty well anything he bets here. Also, a river CR bluff is very uncommon, especially at these stakes. Very few hands are willing to CR this river that we are beating. Those hands that have us crushed will always raise after checking. A naked J may call a small river bet, a weaker K will call anything we put out there, but overall I don't think we lose too much by checking behind, especially compared to the amount we save. And as I said, I am really bad at folding med-strong hands on the river.

That being the case, I check behind without a donkey read. even a vague feeling that he is a moron will lead me to happily get it AI here.

that doesn't mean I think this is the best way to play this river, this is just how I would play it given my weaknesses/leaks. hope that helps.

I would have added something to the effect of our hand being fairly easy to read if I thought our opponent was doing this. betting 3 streets with a pair on board in a multi-way limped pot is usually trips. we have a pretty weak hand if you take this into account.

if our opp is putting us on a K, he can safely check-call flop and turn and CRAI on the river when he has us beat because we aren't going to be doing a lot of checking in this hand, and if we aren't drawing dead, we are drawing pretty damn thin.

helps a lot. thanks.

so, what you are saying is that the check behind is a direct result of you being a payoff wizard? you are not alone, i can tell you that.

however, i am willing to b/f...so i pull the trigger more often.

fyi, i folded to the push. so, i have no clue what he had. but, i WAS beat, i can tell you that much. whether i was behind or sucked out on is irrelevant, to me. i was beat by the river.

i think it would have been better to check behind, too, though. not because i cant fold to the push, but because i think there was evidence out that i wasnt far enough ahead of his range to bet for value.

Villian had KJ all day long!

Chopper's hand

I've just read the first part of this hand. I'll comment on the turn and river later.

Some people are able to limp, even UTG with big pairs if they get the urge. But discounting a trick play preflop for AK/AQ/AJ/KJ/JJ then I do think it's more likely he has Ax/Kx/QT/Jx. I'm just curious at the c/c on this flop.

Wesrman's hand

I think the 2c saved the ace's here. For some reason I'm thinking a tight passive flopped set worried about a straight. A min raise preflop could be overcards or pp and then the bet/call means he liked the flop. The turn is what scared him off. Most likely an Axs/Kxs which paired the 5 though.

Am I totally off the mark with my ranges?

I dont want to let this thread just die.
Reading hands is the key to poker, and i need to get good at it.
So im posting a hand.
If its not a good example feel free to post a different one.

Opponent is 46/16/11, although thats after only 60 hands.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (8 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

saw flop|saw showdown

MP1 ($3.86)
MP2 ($6.82)
CO ($2.57)
Button ($5.09)
SB ($13.75)
BB ($7.86)
UTG ($5.03)
Hero ($4.94)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with , .
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.2, 2 folds, CO calls $0.20, 2 folds, BB calls $0.15.

Flop: ($0.62) , , (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.55, CO calls $0.55, BB folds.

Turn: ($1.72) (2 players)
Hero bets $1.5, CO raises to $1.82, Hero calls $0.32.

River: ($5.36) (2 players)

Final Pot: $5.36

I'll write an article this friday on hand reading tips.

Originally Posted by Chopper

Originally Posted by pgil

Like I said, I would check behind on this river, and the reason is I would also probably call this raise.

theres a statement i seem to hear a good bit that i NEVER understand.

how do you want to check-behind, but call his push?? that, to me, just seems like saying, "i want this to be small, but if he makes it really big, i will snap call."

please explain, if possible, and help me see this one cause i cant.

checking behind is sosososososo bad. I think we can lower the chances of QT a bit because some players would fold it on the turn. I think the only mistake you made in this hand was not over-shoving the river.

Now you figure it out:
- what range am i putting him on?
- what actions will a standard bad passive opponent take with the possible hands in his range if you bet $5.
- what actions will a (ditto) take if you overshove.

maybe a hint: What action is he taking if you min bet?

Also here would be a possible answer to one of the questions:

1. If i bet $5, i think my opponent is going to raise QJ or better, And i'm including AA and QQ in his range since people love to limp them utg. I think he's calling with JT, J9, and J8 but folding everything else. (obviously, i don't think this assessment is correct its just an example. If you did believe this assessment though, do you think betting $5 wqould be a decent play?)

I'm referring to the KTcc hand btw.

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

I'll write an article this friday on hand reading tips.

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.
Cant wait, i need it.

Originally Posted by wesrman

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

I'll write an article this friday on hand reading tips.

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.
Cant wait, i need it.

max, thanks. i will get to this in a bit....i need to go over it again to amply deal with your question.

i'm glad you guys bumped this. it wasnt landing in my email, and i have a couple other hands, i think, that will be goot stuff.

Originally Posted by Chopper

max, thanks. i will get to this in a bit....i need to go over it again to amply deal with your question.

i'm glad you guys bumped this. it wasnt landing in my email, and i have a couple other hands, i think, that will be goot stuff.

just give it a shot. You have like seconds to deal with it in game.

Originally Posted by Massimo

1. If i bet $5, i think my opponent is going to raise QJ or better, And i'm including AA and QQ in his range since people love to limp them utg. I think he's calling with JT, J9, and J8 but folding everything else. (obviously, i don't think this assessment is correct its just an example. If you did believe this assessment though, do you think betting $5 wqould be a decent play?)

if this scenario is what you are going on, i guess you shove since you think that none of these hands can get away? but, i am so lost right here, this is why i started the thread. its as much, if not more, to help myself as it is to help others.

i guess you are saying that the $5 only cost us more money than outright shoving? unless, of course, we accidentally induce a bluff...and have the balls to call....which i guess you are saying we should.

oh, and i didnt take all day to think about this...lol. i forgot about it until lunch, and reviewed the hand (to see turn and river cards). granted, i still got timed out on, but i didnt spend hours in pokerstove, either...lol.

again, i am confused as all hell, though, when i thought i had it figured out. damn.

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

I'll write an article this friday on hand reading tips.

I will read article and Profit.

Originally Posted by Chopper

Originally Posted by Massimo

1. If i bet $5, i think my opponent is going to raise QJ or better, And i'm including AA and QQ in his range since people love to limp them utg. I think he's calling with JT, J9, and J8 but folding everything else. (obviously, i don't think this assessment is correct its just an example. If you did believe this assessment though, do you think betting $5 wqould be a decent play?)

if this scenario is what you are going on, i guess you shove since you think that none of these hands can get away? but, i am so lost right here, this is why i started the thread. its as much, if not more, to help myself as it is to help others.

i guess you are saying that the $5 only cost us more money than outright shoving? unless, of course, we accidentally induce a bluff...and have the balls to call....which i guess you are saying we should.

oh, and i didnt take all day to think about this...lol. i forgot about it until lunch, and reviewed the hand (to see turn and river cards). granted, i still got timed out on, but i didnt spend hours in pokerstove, either...lol.

again, i am confused as all hell, though, when i thought i had it figured out. damn.

i think you may be confused... that was an example of basically how i wanted you to answer the question (like, the format...)

Just tell me what you think the opponent will do in these situations:

- what actions will a standard bad passive opponent take with the possible hands in his range if you bet $5.
- what actions will a (ditto) take if you overshove.

maybe a hint: What action is he taking if you min bet?

Give me something to work with so we can see whether you are having a decision making problem or a hand reading problem.

clearly a decision making problem.

1) i think they call until the river and shove when they had it or hit it. so, JJ, KJ, K8, K9 all shove, maybe KQ. worse K's call, and so do QT and AA/QQ, if there, maybe some really stupid stuff like AJ.
2) almost all that calls, still calls, and what shoves obviously calls, too.
3) i cant imagine what happens if i minbet, to be honest. maybe really weak stuff calls, but anything that calls $5 would likely raise, imo. maybe just a minraise, or to a smaller amount, but i dont think they overshove, unless they have the boat...if they are legit passives.

to everybody else watching me expose my 2 inch dick here, this is how we learn. we expose ourselves for the piss-poor players we can be. but, we learn, apply, and get better.....albeit slowly.

Originally Posted by Chopper

clearly a decision making problem.

1) i think they call until the river and shove when they had it or hit it. so, JJ, KJ, K8, K9 all shove, maybe KQ. worse K's call, and so do QT and AA/QQ, if there, maybe some really stupid stuff like AJ.
2) almost all that calls, still calls, and what shoves obviously calls, too.
3) i cant imagine what happens if i minbet, to be honest. maybe really weak stuff calls, but anything that calls $5 would likely raise, imo. maybe just a minraise, or to a smaller amount, but i dont think they overshove, unless they have the boat...if they are legit passives.

to everybody else watching me expose my 2 inch dick here, this is how we learn. we expose ourselves for the piss-poor players we can be. but, we learn, apply, and get better.....albeit slowly.

So yes, i think you have a decision making problem here. You analyzed the situation pretty much the same way i would (and personally i think it's a correct analysis, i'd add a few more Jx's though).

but why did you bet $5?

- If you bet $5, you are getting extra value from a few weaker Jxs that aren't calling an overshove. However, assuming that you're calling a small c/r (which i think you have to do here) You're pretty much losing the same amount of money when you overshove and lose. Also, you're not maximizing value against K2-K7 (and possibly even worse!) that is just calling the $5.

- If you overshove, you're losing about the same amount of money to the hands you're losing to as when you bet $5. And you're forfeiting some value from weak hands that may call a $5 bet but not a shove. However If you shove, you're getting much more value out of Kxs worse than yours and maybe some crap he'll decide to call with (QQ, AA, AJ?).

- If you check behind, that means you think that betting is -EV. I think some form of a bet is in order here.

- I think given your analysis of his ranges, the decision is to overshove (or at least thats better than betting $5 imo). Now if you think his ranges are different than thats another story...

Something to note here is that it's more likely that your opponent is losing to you. Cause although hands like K9 or QT are in his range, most players are playing them differently (raising at some point during the hand, leading the river). Furthermore, i think his most likely hand here when checking the river is Kx.

i can say that the reason i bet $5 was because i had no idea where i was...i tend to do that. i bluff this way and bet the nuts this way, too. sure, the balance is there, but i leave $$ on the table. my bluffs look like the nuts, and i can get away from shoves...which is what i did here. as i remember, i folded...

however, thank you so very much for the explanation (i have practically BEGGED for these before to no avail). this is what i need to work on, and its painfully obvious.

i have read, and read, and read this type of explanation. i have seen the math to back it up, but it still refuses to sink in. its like i need to re-read this another 100 times before the light bulb clicks on.

any suggestions as to how to speed up this process? anything you look for, in particular, when reviewing PT (not stats, but HHs)? any pencil and paper practicing? any other drill that you can think of?

or, do you just keep trying to focus on these situations when they come up and let natural experience run its course?

oh, and max, will you and ISF keep this thread in your memory, and check it from time to time? there is no way i/we cant get better if we just keep running some hands through here and thinking aloud, as long as i am not the "lead consultant." lol.

thanks again.

idk suggestions... i've been playing for so long that i don't remember when these decisions didn't come so easily and fast. But this IS show i think, it just happens in like 1 second.

Maybe make sure to go over at least 2 choices before you make a decision. Like as a default, always weigh what your doing against shoving before you do it (although shoving isn't gonna be the right play a lot). This might help you get into a groove of thinking about what decision to make.

Learn to read souls Chopper.

I still kinda disagree here, though don't have any math to back me up. I am working under the assumption that our opp is most likely thinking that any K is the nuts. He is playing to maximize value on it and therefore going for c/c c/c c/r, and he is doing this with all K's.

I don't think QT is folding the turn after calling the flop. The flop bet was a slight overbet, whereas the turn was less than pot. This doesn't mean much to us, but could be seen as weakness by opp.

The other hand that makes sense that he could have here is Jx, with x most likely being T/Q/A. He is running a bit of a bluff catcher line, which is not all that smart in a multiway limped pot, but that's ok. This is his least likely holding IMO.

The J will call a small bet, but not a shove, and will not shove over. I think all K's are shoving over, whether we beat them or not. QT is probably a mix of shoving over, leading, and check-calling.

Since we have bet both streets so far when checked to, opp has no reason to think that we will not bet this street as well. I have seen numerous players check all three streets when they have what they think is the nuts, especially at the lower levels. Since opp is unknown we can't really narrow his range down much more than a couple of scared J's, an unlikely QT, and Kx (and possibly some other random weird ass hand that noone here has even thought of being in this spot like 22).

There aren't a lot of K2's being limped from EP, but if they are, then they are probably suited. I think the same goes for 3-5/6. This leaves K7, and possibly K6 as the only Kx possibilities that have more than 1 way to be made that we are ahead of. K7 and up can be limped suited or not. 13 combos (in a best case scenario) of Kx we beat. 17 combos of Kx we lose to, and 2 that we tie. I think x being higher than 7 is more likely as well simply because K9 is more likely to be limped than K7-.

In this situation, with the 9 coming on the river, there are more hands that are beating us in opps range than we are beating. The hands that are beating us are also more likely to be in, and I think any K can take this line.

Since we have no real reads on opp (and I am making the assumption based on this that he is not a complete and utter moron, since these guys tend to stand out pretty quick) I think the best play is to check-behind the river. If the river card had been a high card or a 2/3, I would probably go for the third street of value. as it is, I would be happy with two streets.

how is my reasoning?

I admit I haven't read al of the thread as it started to talk about specific hands but there is an issue of hand reading that I don't think has been covered yet.

The advice I get is to assign a range to a villain and then tighten it. You're holding QQ or whatever and have refined the range for your opponent to KA, 10s - As. You're ahead of many hands but also behind a lot too and thus are none the wiser. And that's before the flop has come which may bring overcards.

Sure, many times Mr AA will reraise but not always. But if you feel he would more often than not, then what about if you held 88, your raise was flat called and thus raneg him from AJ+, 77 - QQ? You're still none the wiser.

but, you are "wiser," thunder. you can throw tons of holdings almost completely out of your consideration.

so long as you can accurately (the operative word here) narrow down your villains' ranges, you can then, calculate math easier on the crucial concepts, like implied odds. you then, can add in your specific player reads and make the better decision not only on whether or not to bet/raise/call/check, but also HOW MUCH he can feasibly call.

complicated? yes, but ABSOLUTELY necessary for even a 25NL player to earn top dollar.

and, the specific hands are probably one of the better parts of the thread. running through specific hands will help hone your skills/thought processes. and, that will give you confidence to apply the same rationale to all situations. you are really practicing "process of elimination."

Chopper, I understand the process of elimination and was referring more to post flop. So you've narrowed his range down yet he's firing or calling your bet on a blank flop. Are you losing QQ to KK or ahead of his KA? Or if the flop comes down with overcards, has he took the lead with AA or is he miles behind with JJ?

Originally Posted by wesrman

I dont want to let this thread just die.
Reading hands is the key to poker, and i need to get good at it.
So im posting a hand.
If its not a good example feel free to post a different one.

Opponent is 46/16/11, although thats after only 60 hands.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (8 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

saw flop|saw showdown

MP1 ($3.86)
MP2 ($6.82)
CO ($2.57)
Button ($5.09)
SB ($13.75)
BB ($7.86)
UTG ($5.03)
Hero ($4.94)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with , .
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.2, 2 folds, CO calls $0.20, 2 folds, BB calls $0.15.

Flop: ($0.62) , , (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.55, CO calls $0.55, BB folds.

Turn: ($1.72) (2 players)
Hero bets $1.5, CO raises to $1.82, Hero calls $0.32.

River: ($5.36) (2 players)

Final Pot: $5.36

well i cant narrow villan down to an exact hand but it is my expierence that they will either have a flush draw in this spot or a made hand of top pair or better.

Originally Posted by Thunder

Chopper, I understand the process of elimination and was referring more to post flop. So you've narrowed his range down yet he's firing or calling your bet on a blank flop. Are you losing QQ to KK or ahead of his KA? Or if the flop comes down with overcards, has he took the lead with AA or is he miles behind with JJ?

the thing is, you need to KEEP NARROWING DOWN THE RANGE as each card peels off and each bet/check/raise flies in. you dont make a preflop read, and stick with it throughout the entire hand. you are constantly making adjustments to what you think your villain has....narrowing and widening possibilities along the way.

you will find, as i'm sure you have, that you often find yourself in a situation where you feel you are 50/50. but, you will also look at the possibilities of your opponent and see that you beat 13 of the 18 hands he could have. (see spoon's geometrics thread) its not, "he has JJ or AA and i dont know which." its, "i am ahead of 2/3 of what he could hold. so, 13 times out of 18, i am very likely to win here. so, since its a good bit more than half the time, i should strongly consider getting some money in this pot."

the math says, "go" because you narrowed his range, and that may change dramatically on the next card, but you make your play based on the math of the situation....and let luck take over from there knowing you will come out on top most of the time.

i hope that helped a little, but someone way more qualified probably needs to articulate this better.

in the AdJh hand from wes...

villain is 46/16/11.

since we raised pf, we can rule out only complete crap...but with a 46 vpip, we cant even rule out crap. lol. all we know is we likely started off ahead and did our job of charging him to enter our pot.

of course we lead on this dry, TPTK flop, and villain calls. i think we can figure on weaker J, an 8, 9T, KQ, slowplaying sets, and A high. small chance of QQ+, but with an aggro villain, i would hope for a 3bet preflop, but since he didnt...from the CO, i assume he doesnt have a great pf hand.

turn is Q and puts up a flush draw now. we bet strong, and villain dumps us in? for the extra $.30 we have to call, so i dont think there's any "reading" left to do. we cant get off bottom pair here, given these odds, because villain is so aggro, he likely loves to bluff.

/read

we likely lose here, and trapped ourselves with a marginal hand oop in a raised pot.

thats my assessment.

Originally Posted by XTR1000

Leave table and look for a softer opponent if u can´t predict his ranges precisely after 45min

While this is good advice. I honestly couldn't do this until a few months ago, and I've been playing as seriously as possible for a couple of years now. Admidtedly I'm a slow learner sometimes...

If you're a beginner and still trying to learn ranges, be 100% honest with yourself. Are you not picking up on this guys range because he seems to be nuts, or because you aren't a good reader yet. Be willing to Err to the fault being your own, in fact always start internally every time you lose money, then move outward.

Perhaps I didn't articulate myself well, apologies. I agree it's not about sticking to a pf read. I mean that it's been raised pf and irrespective of what the flop brings, he bets or calls your bet. Then again on the turn.

So all along you are having to adjust accordingly.

In both cases (undercard flop or overcard) flop you oculd be beat from the get go by aces. However, I am more likely to feel ahead if the flop is blank. Should aces and kings hit the flop, that is when I am less likely to feel ahead. And facing action could mean Mr A8 or Mrs QK has hit, Madam 1010 is sticking to her guns or they're repping the ace. And this is when you have a decision to make.

Believe me, I've faced all of the above. There have been times i thought I wasdead, only to see them flip rage and times I thought I was well ahead, only to be suckered by the unbelievable 2 pair of 39.

Additionally, as a MTT/SNG player, I rarely have the luxury of sitting with someone for an hour to get a read nor do I always have the luxury of being stacked enough to let QQ go.

If I am missing aspects of your post, let meknow. Thx.

Let me give the AJ one a shot. I've never really used ranges before so this is very interesting to me. Keep in mind that I'm just a noob trying to act like the big kids.

Pre-flop:
So at these stakes I think these players could have anything pre-flop. Small suited connectors, small pairs, even a tight passive player with AA wouldn't surprise me. The most likely hands though are middle ground: JT, QJ, KQ, KJ, T9s, 98s etc., and maybe 22-99, more likely on the smaller side.

Flop
I think at this point he's not likely to be calling you with little pairs or suited connectors after a hodgepodge rainbow. He called with a player to act so I think most likely hands are still JT, QJ, KJ but he could have something like 9Ts and is looking to catch a card. Another possibility is 88, 33, or even just 78s. Maybe because he's a short stack he really likes second pair.

Turn
With the Queen on the turn I would now definitely fear the QJ and 9Ts, and I think I would check to him to see what he does and try and figure him that way. If he went all in on me then I'd give him credit for it. I lost the advantage on a lot of what I had put in his range. If he checks behind me then he probably does have something like 78s and maybe I'm still in control of the hand. As it was played I would think I'm beat as soon as he raises, but who cares what he has because you have to drop in the extra 0.32.

River
Doesn't matter.

Alright, I gave it a shot. Anyone want to grade me?