FR NLHE

I have logged over 5K hands in $10 NLHE and alas it was a complete waste of time from a profitable standpoint. I have pretty much broke even. I am done with micro stakes ring games. I just can't do it.

It seems no matter how much I raise preflop with premier hands, it's either some jackass with suited crap or 3 limpers with marginal hands that ALWAYS draw out.

For the past few days I have been trying a different strategy. I've bought in short-stacked and pushed every time I had any good hand. Again, I broke even but that's what happens when you leave it up to constant coin flips.

I really excel at SnGs and MTTs but I always feel the need to play ring games. Maybe I should just stick to what I'm good at because I just can't get ahead here. I am great at pulling bluffs and being aggressive in tournaments but you all know you can't get cute in micro stakes ring games. So I play ABC poker, stay disciplined, yet I gain nothing.

play 6max. also, 5k hands is nothing. you could be a huge winner your next 5k hands. post tons of hands and read every thread possible on here relating to ring games. if you do this, take the advice given, and don't tilt i guarantee you will be a winner in the longrun.

you are right though...you don't need to get fancy at micro stakes. just actively seek out worse players, isolate them, and abuse position.

play a real sample size before you totally write cash games off. its definitly the way to make the most money long term.

So what's a good amount of hands to judge? 25K? 100K? I'll give 6-max a trial run over the next few days and see how I do.[/quote]

It depends. If you play a consistent style and get decent breaks, 10k - 15k hands should be enough. But, for example, say you switch to 6max having never played it before, so you play a different style every 1k hands over the course of weeks while you "learn" the game and make adjustments. In that case, you may need 20 - 30k hands to know how you're doing.

6max is higher variance than FR, and it will play swingy-er than FR. More all-ins, more stacks won and lost. More hands lasting more streets. More miracle rivers. So it will take longer to know how you're doing there.

BTW, I go to FR when I'm interested in a steady (and boring) 5 ptBB/100 winrate and low variance, typically grinding it out playing 12/11 ubernit preflop and agro postflop. I go to 6max when I'm super-well rolled and looking to make money. I play nearly 20% of my hands (18/16 is typical), and the game is looser and crazier postflop. Lots of loose, passive action. Lots of stations. So lots of bad beats and huge pots. But it's all good since I wait until I have cards to play big pots.

Good luck at the tables!!

First, 5k hands is nothing.
Second, this isn't one or two street bingo. In ring games you need to work hard on post-flop play. With your SnG background, that's going to be a big growth area.

Try two street bingo.

Originally Posted by Fnord

First, 5k hands is nothing.
Second, this isn't one or two street bingo. In ring games you need to work hard on post-flop play. With your SnG background, that's going to be a big growth area.

lol, can we rename the sng forum the "2 Street Bingo" forum?

Originally Posted by Fnord

First, 5k hands is nothing.
Second, this isn't one or two street bingo. In ring games you need to work hard on post-flop play. With your SnG background, that's going to be a big growth area.

QFT.

Originally Posted by Grinder

I'll give 6-max a trial run over the next few days and see how I do.

Make sure you read spoon's post about isolating limpers, and set aside some time to watch some of FTR's videos and really pay attention. Here is spoon's post: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...rs-t66631.html

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Originally Posted by Grinder

I'll give 6-max a trial run over the next few days and see how I do.

Make sure you read spoon's post about isolating limpers, and set aside some time to watch some of FTR's videos and really pay attention. Here is spoon's post: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...rs-t66631.html

That's a great read! I am fairly good at pushing out limpers and isolating the flop between just one opponent when I have position. Most of the time I c-bet regardless if I've hit and I'd say about 75% of the time they fold right there. If I think they have a hand and the turn doesn't help me, I'll usually duck out of the hand.

you don't seem to like grinding much, Grinder

I'm fairly new at the cash games but I've heard alot of people talk about playing the 6 max instead of FR. Why is that?

Originally Posted by Warpe

you don't seem to like grinding much, Grinder

That's been my nickname years before I started playing poker... got from a coach in pee-wee football of all things.

Originally Posted by Grinder

I have logged over 5K hands in $10 NLHE and alas it was a complete waste of time from a profitable standpoint. I have pretty much broke even. I am done with micro stakes ring games. I just can't do it.

It seems no matter how much I raise preflop with premier hands, it's either some jackass with suited crap or 3 limpers with marginal hands that ALWAYS draw out.

For the past few days I have been trying a different strategy. I've bought in short-stacked and pushed every time I had any good hand. Again, I broke even but that's what happens when you leave it up to constant coin flips.

I really excel at SnGs and MTTs but I always feel the need to play ring games. Maybe I should just stick to what I'm good at because I just can't get ahead here. I am great at pulling bluffs and being aggressive in tournaments but you all know you can't get cute in micro stakes ring games. So I play ABC poker, stay disciplined, yet I gain nothing.

Anyone have any words of encouragement or should I just stop playing ring games all together?

Dude I play more fucking hands than that in a day, as do many of the full ring grinders on these forums. Change your username if you're going to be such a short-sighted whiner. Man, 5000 hands is fucking nothing. Jesus fucking Chris Ferguson why am I even posting in this thread. OMFG GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY BOX.

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Dude I play more fucking hands than that in a day, as do many of the full ring grinders on these forums. Change your username if you're going to be such a short-sighted whiner. Man, 5000 hands is fucking nothing. Jesus fucking Chris Ferguson why am I even posting in this thread. OMFG GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY BOX.

umm beginners don't automatically know that 5k hands is nothing because they are...beginners. great addition to the thread btw.

Originally Posted by Deuce Blue

I'm fairly new at the cash games but I've heard alot of people talk about playing the 6 max instead of FR. Why is that?

I've switched to 6 max because it is easier to isolate bad players and abuse position more.

Dude I play more fucking hands than that in a day, as do many of the full ring grinders on these forums. Change your username if you're going to be such a short-sighted whiner. Man, 5000 hands is fucking nothing. Jesus fucking Chris Ferguson why am I even posting in this thread. OMFG GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY BOX.

Thank you for the juvenile response. You have helped me tremendously!

Like I asked before, how many hands should I be playing before passing judgment on +/- profits? 100K?

Originally Posted by Grinder

For the past few days I have been trying a different strategy. I've bought in short-stacked and pushed every time I had any good hand. Again, I broke even but that's what happens when you leave it up to constant coin flips.

Is this ANYONE'S idea of fun?

I remember going to a casino about a decade ago on a trip with a company I worked for, and the casino gave everyone from our biz a roll of quarters to spend on the slots. I did that for like a half hour and was bored stiff. I finally left and gave the rest of my quarters (about $8 worth) to an old guy sitting next to me.

I've very rarely thought of that day since, but your post brought it all back. If poker is not fun, and you're not making a decent amount of money from it to make up for the drudgery, why not do something else?

The most enjoyment I had that day was watching the old guy's reaction when I gave him the quarters. Maybe find something else that brings you enjoyment, whether it's going back to sng's or something else.

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Originally Posted by Grinder

I have logged over 5K hands in $10 NLHE and alas it was a complete waste of time from a profitable standpoint. I have pretty much broke even. I am done with micro stakes ring games. I just can't do it.

It seems no matter how much I raise preflop with premier hands, it's either some jackass with suited crap or 3 limpers with marginal hands that ALWAYS draw out.

For the past few days I have been trying a different strategy. I've bought in short-stacked and pushed every time I had any good hand. Again, I broke even but that's what happens when you leave it up to constant coin flips.

I really excel at SnGs and MTTs but I always feel the need to play ring games. Maybe I should just stick to what I'm good at because I just can't get ahead here. I am great at pulling bluffs and being aggressive in tournaments but you all know you can't get cute in micro stakes ring games. So I play ABC poker, stay disciplined, yet I gain nothing.

Anyone have any words of encouragement or should I just stop playing ring games all together?

Dude I play more fucking hands than that in a day, as do many of the full ring grinders on these forums. Change your username if you're going to be such a short-sighted whiner. Man, 5000 hands is fucking nothing. Jesus fucking Chris Ferguson why am I even posting in this thread. OMFG GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY BOX.

Translation: your username seems to be a mildly amusing contradiction: grinding is playing thousands and thousands of hands, so it is very difficult to imagine that you have become a "grinder". Also, variance at cash games can run in the +/- 40 buyins range (in severe cases). 40 buyins!!! That means you can be playing well and still go down $400 playing GOOD poker at 10NL. That also means you can be up $400 playing REALLY bad poker at 10NL.

Plus, when you're just learning, your playing style can go through changes every few thousand hands. I've prob only played 10K hands, but if i look at my first 5K compared to my last 5K, im not even close to the same player. (40/2 to about 15/10 for example).

Read all of spoonitnow's posts and learn!! There is serious $ to be made, and he knows how to do it! Except this post of his, don't pay attention to it. This is the beginners forum, and us noobs have to ask stupid questions somewhere...

Originally Posted by Fnord

two street bingo

so sick

your question can't really be answered since downswings/break-even stretches of 50K hands or more lasting weeks/months are not unheard of. a better question is whether you are psychologically equipped to grind cash for that many hands, or are SNGs/MTTs more your game.

Read all of spoonitnow's posts and learn!! There is serious $ to be made, and he knows how to do it! Except this post of his, don't pay attention to it. This is the beginners forum, and us noobs have to ask stupid questions somewhere.

I have read all of spoon's posts and I agree he's submitted some valuable information... but that doesn't give him the right to act like a jackass... in the beginners forum of all places.

I just got Poker Tracker. I have read more. I will play 100K at full ring NLHE and see what happens. Hopefully I'll get better and make a little profit.

First things first.
Dont start at $10NL. Start at 2NL and progress slowly.
This way you learn to beat each level, and learn the game without taking big losses of cash.
The best way to do it (if you want to only plasy cash games), is to withdraw all of your money except $50 and grind 2NL until you have enough to move up.

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Start with about 20 buyins at 2nl or 5nl. This means either $40 or $100. Now, don't put anymore money into your poker account ever. Instead, grind through the limits and get good at poker. Then, the higher you get, take a slightly higher bankroll requirement than the stakes previous so that you better protect your poker bankroll.

When you have $100, play 5nl. (20 buy-ins)
When you have $250, play 10nl. (25 buy-ins)
When you have $750, play 25nl. (30 buy-ins)
When you have $1750, play 50nl. (35 buy-ins)
When you have $4000, play 100nl. (40 buy-ins)
When you have $10000, play 200nl. (50 buy-ins)

If you follow this and regularly play and work on your game, you'll be making a lot of money in less than two years imo.

Originally Posted by Grinder

I have read all of spoon's posts and I agree he's submitted some valuable information... but that doesn't give him the right to act like a jackass... in the beginners forum of all places.

Your unfortunate choice of a username sort of inspired folks to poke fun.

When you stepped into the FTR forums with "grinder" in your username, you identified yourself with the real-deal FTR grinders, and Spoon is an elite FTR grinder in every sense of the word. Grinders have played hundreds of thousands of hands of poker in the last year.

You posting anywhere on FTR with "grinder" in you userID was like if I were to gear up and run out to right field at Yankee stadium and call myself "Babe." You made a statement about who you are as a poker player which was hilariously contradicted by your post.

And in a way, you insulted the real FTR grinders. Unintentionally, sure. No one is upset, unless you are. And you shouldn't be. You didn't know or wouldn't have done it.

Look, I hope you stay on the forums and play a 100k hands and learn/enjoy the game. And if you do, you'll see where Spoon was comin' from. And I doubt you'll hold it against him.

Get some HH's that bother you and post them here - not AA's getting cracked but real problem hands. Post 2 or 3 from tonight's session in here in the beginner's forum. We'll get in and critique them. You'll learn a lot. After half a dozen posts like that, you'll be on track again. And you'll find Spoon will have valuable things to say about how you play poker and what will make you better - and so will a lot of other folks around here, too.

Welcome to FTR - keep playin' and postin'

stfu robb.

Thanks Robb! I am by no means a shark in live poker games but I have made some good money with it... on the other hand, I'm sort of a fish out of water when it comes to online poker because I'm just a noob. It's a whole different breed online. But I play primarily MTTs live and not cash games, so this could be part of the reason for the learning curve as well.

I am slowly making the transition but I've already found leaks in my game that have helped me out with live games just in the past few weeks. It was extremely hard for me to put an opponent on a hand online, and it still is, but it's getting easier.

I have read the stickies, some of them a few times. I love the game of poker and if a few years from now I found myself making a ton of cash from it... it wouldn't break my heart.

This is a great site and I will continue to read and post here. I don't hold anything against Spoon, it's just message board chatter... and I actually thought the "Jesus Fucking Chris Ferguson" remark was kinda funny so it's really whatever.

I look forward to posting some HH and improving my game and maybe one day I can live up to my forum name.

Originally Posted by euphoricism

stfu robb.

vnh

Originally Posted by Robb

And in a way, you insulted the real FTR grinders.

no he didn't (if anyone is insulted by someone's name on a poker forum being grinder then i feel sorry for them), and spoon was out of line.

Originally Posted by Grinder

Read all of spoonitnow's posts and learn!! There is serious $ to be made, and he knows how to do it! Except this post of his, don't pay attention to it. This is the beginners forum, and us noobs have to ask stupid questions somewhere.

I have read all of spoon's posts and I agree he's submitted some valuable information... but that doesn't give him the right to act like a jackass... in the beginners forum of all places.

I just got Poker Tracker. I have read more. I will play 100K at full ring NLHE and see what happens. Hopefully I'll get better and make a little profit.

You're right. I don't have a right to be a jackass. I'm sorry. I'll be sure to remember how sensitive you are to such serious business on Internet forums so that I don't accidentally make your vagina cry once again.

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Originally Posted by Robb

And in a way, you insulted the real FTR grinders.

no he didn't (if anyone is insulted by someone's name on a poker forum being grinder then i feel sorry for them), and spoon was out of line.

I'm always out of line, ldo.

Originally Posted by wesrman

First things first.
Dont start at $10NL. Start at 2NL and progress slowly.
This way you learn to beat each level, and learn the game without taking big losses of cash.
The best way to do it (if you want to only plasy cash games), is to withdraw all of your money except $50 and grind 2NL until you have enough to move up.

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Start with about 20 buyins at 2nl or 5nl. This means either $40 or $100. Now, don't put anymore money into your poker account ever. Instead, grind through the limits and get good at poker. Then, the higher you get, take a slightly higher bankroll requirement than the stakes previous so that you better protect your poker bankroll.

When you have $100, play 5nl. (20 buy-ins)
When you have $250, play 10nl. (25 buy-ins)
When you have $750, play 25nl. (30 buy-ins)
When you have $1750, play 50nl. (35 buy-ins)
When you have $4000, play 100nl. (40 buy-ins)
When you have $10000, play 200nl. (50 buy-ins)

If you follow this and regularly play and work on your game, you'll be making a lot of money in less than two years imo.

Well the advice I gave blackatom about withdrawing and starting at 2nl was in part because he had bankroll management troubles also. However, it couldn't hurt all that bad I don't guess.

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Originally Posted by wesrman

First things first.
Dont start at $10NL. Start at 2NL and progress slowly.
This way you learn to beat each level, and learn the game without taking big losses of cash.
The best way to do it (if you want to only plasy cash games), is to withdraw all of your money except $50 and grind 2NL until you have enough to move up.

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Start with about 20 buyins at 2nl or 5nl. This means either $40 or $100. Now, don't put anymore money into your poker account ever. Instead, grind through the limits and get good at poker. Then, the higher you get, take a slightly higher bankroll requirement than the stakes previous so that you better protect your poker bankroll.

When you have $100, play 5nl. (20 buy-ins)
When you have $250, play 10nl. (25 buy-ins)
When you have $750, play 25nl. (30 buy-ins)
When you have $1750, play 50nl. (35 buy-ins)
When you have $4000, play 100nl. (40 buy-ins)
When you have $10000, play 200nl. (50 buy-ins)

If you follow this and regularly play and work on your game, you'll be making a lot of money in less than two years imo.

Well the advice I gave blackatom about withdrawing and starting at 2nl was in part because he had bankroll management troubles also. However, it couldn't hurt all that bad I don't guess.

My point is: he clearly isnt beating $10NL.
So dropping down is the best answer.
This was taken from a different post and really had nothing to do with blackatom. Just showing the idea that you beat level by level and learn as you go to minimize your losses.
The withdrawing just makes it that much easier to ensure that you are moving up as you improve your game. There is no real need to withdraw, but starting at a lower level will deffinately help.
GL.

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

I'm always out of line, ldo.

OK, i just can take it anymore.

WTF IS THIS!!!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

-------------------> {acronym Renton hates}

Also, how many posts do you have to have before you can use it?

lol...

Hey Redberg! What part of the 'Peg? I'm in Fort Garry.

Well the advice I gave blackatom about withdrawing and starting at 2nl was in part because he had bankroll management troubles also. However, it couldn't hurt all that bad I don't guess.

Tru dat.

Originally Posted by Warpe

Hey Redberg! What part of the 'Peg? I'm in Fort Garry.

Nice! I live in west St. James, and work in Trashcona... I do head down that way to get Tony's Pizza now and again...

Ever play in live games here in town?

Originally Posted by REDBRG

OK, i just can take it anymore.

WTF IS THIS!!!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

-------------------> {acronym Renton hates}

L

D

O

meaning "like duh obviously" i think

Originally Posted by REDBRG

Originally Posted by Warpe

Hey Redberg! What part of the 'Peg? I'm in Fort Garry.

Nice! I live in west St. James, and work in Trashcona... I do head down that way to get Tony's Pizza now and again...

Ever play in live games here in town?

I live like 3 blocks from Tony's

Don't play live much. Was gonna play the Barca Club until it got busted. Also, look for FTRer "Trashcona". 3 guesses where he's from.

Originally Posted by Robb

L

D

O

meaning "like duh obviously" i think

ldo

Originally Posted by wesrman

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Originally Posted by wesrman

First things first.
Dont start at $10NL. Start at 2NL and progress slowly.
This way you learn to beat each level, and learn the game without taking big losses of cash.
The best way to do it (if you want to only plasy cash games), is to withdraw all of your money except $50 and grind 2NL until you have enough to move up.

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Start with about 20 buyins at 2nl or 5nl. This means either $40 or $100. Now, don't put anymore money into your poker account ever. Instead, grind through the limits and get good at poker. Then, the higher you get, take a slightly higher bankroll requirement than the stakes previous so that you better protect your poker bankroll.

When you have $100, play 5nl. (20 buy-ins)
When you have $250, play 10nl. (25 buy-ins)
When you have $750, play 25nl. (30 buy-ins)
When you have $1750, play 50nl. (35 buy-ins)
When you have $4000, play 100nl. (40 buy-ins)
When you have $10000, play 200nl. (50 buy-ins)

If you follow this and regularly play and work on your game, you'll be making a lot of money in less than two years imo.

Well the advice I gave blackatom about withdrawing and starting at 2nl was in part because he had bankroll management troubles also. However, it couldn't hurt all that bad I don't guess.

My point is: he clearly isnt beating $10NL.
So dropping down is the best answer.
This was taken from a different post and really had nothing to do with blackatom. Just showing the idea that you beat level by level and learn as you go to minimize your losses.
The withdrawing just makes it that much easier to ensure that you are moving up as you improve your game. There is no real need to withdraw, but starting at a lower level will deffinately help.
GL.

Yea mang.

Originally Posted by Robb

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

I'm always out of line, ldo.

tyty <3

You're right. I don't have a right to be a jackass. I'm sorry. I'll be sure to remember how sensitive you are to such serious business on Internet forums so that I don't accidentally make your vagina cry once again.

Damn dude, you got daddy issues or something?

Originally Posted by Grinder

I have logged over 5K hands in $10 NLHE and alas it was a complete waste of time from a profitable standpoint. I have pretty much broke even. I am done with micro stakes ring games. I just can't do it.

It seems no matter how much I raise preflop with premier hands, it's either some jackass with suited crap or 3 limpers with marginal hands that ALWAYS draw out.

For the past few days I have been trying a different strategy. I've bought in short-stacked and pushed every time I had any good hand. Again, I broke even but that's what happens when you leave it up to constant coin flips.

I really excel at SnGs and MTTs but I always feel the need to play ring games. Maybe I should just stick to what I'm good at because I just can't get ahead here. I am great at pulling bluffs and being aggressive in tournaments but you all know you can't get cute in micro stakes ring games. So I play ABC poker, stay disciplined, yet I gain nothing.

Originally Posted by Grinder

You're right. I don't have a right to be a jackass. I'm sorry. I'll be sure to remember how sensitive you are to such serious business on Internet forums so that I don't accidentally make your vagina cry once again.

Damn dude, you got daddy issues or something?

Hey man I know you don't know any better so it's all good, but if you were worried more about getting better at poker instead of someone picking on you on an Internet forum then you would be able to beat micro stakes cash games.

On a more important note to everyone who will ever read this, I've always been very much about finding important lessons in all facets of life, and this thread is no exception. So, suppose I tell the world that you're a dumbass -- what are you going to learn from the experience?

I had a couple of fun hands so far today and I thought of this thread:

http://www.pokerhand.org/?2233793
http://www.pokerhand.org/?2233781

obviously you should move up to where they respect your preflop raises.

Originally Posted by Hawkfan79

obviously you should move up to where they respect your preflop raises.

el dee oh

And fwiw, those were the only hands that fit the criteria during my first 15 minutes of playing. After that I stopped keeping up with them but maybe I shouldn't have stopped just to prove a point.

spoon wtf is with all the trolling?

Originally Posted by Pelion

spoon wtf is with all the trolling?

Fuck off.
Lynch Pelion.
Etc etc and so on and so forth.

well at least you managed to come up with another coherent response