Combatting the "bully"

I have been looking for a topic for my first post here and unfortunately I have found one.

First a little background on me. I have been playing off and on for a few years now. At one point I worked my way up to 3/6 limit six max but then hit a very major downswing that led to me taking a major amount of time away from the game. Since that time I have attempted more than once to rebuild my bankroll but none of these attempts have lasted very long or been successful. Last night I finally identified one of my glaring weaknesses and now that I have identified it i am asking your help to fix the problem.

Very common scenario: I am at the table and doing OK, maybe up a 1/2 BI or so. The people at the table respect my PF raises and c-bets. Things are going fairly well. The seat one or two to my left opens up and this is when things change. The new person in that seat will now cause me to eventually make some type of really stupid play and most likely I will leave the table busted.

What happens is this, the new guy starts calling every time I raise PF, then if I c-bet he raises every time especially if it is just the 2 of us left. Now I understand that the flop misses him just as often as it misses me. But when I finally make a stand and play back at him he has just enough to win the hand which is usually fairly large after playing back. I have tried switching tables and seats. I have tried waiting for a big hand. I have tried loosening up, all to no avail.

These players are becoming much more prevalent at the tables and I need to know how to combat this type of play. This has been a problem for a long time for me but I used to make money of others so I dd not worry about it. Times have changed. How do I recognize the right time to play back etc., because I am obviously doing it wrong?

Is this limit or no limit?
I don't think it's that hard in limit. You just don't c-bet without a hand, and you try to be a good way ahead of his range if you call, and don't raise unless you're confident you got him.

At NL you should open up, but again not too much. I see too many people reraising these players with air, and get stacked with 3rd pair. That's pretty dumb.
I had exactly that type of player two seats to my left yesterday. I alone made 3 BI from him. Pretty much all I did was call him pf with a top x% range whatever the number of hands he opened up was, then called him down when I had top pair or better, and fold everything else. If you hit second pair you're probably ahead, but you are increasing your variance by a good deal if you play for stacks with these hands.
Also try to pay attention how far they go on a bluff. Many of those guys will fire on the flop and turn every time, but shut down on the river, or just make a psb on the river, but shove if they got it.

Maybe a good idea is to try it yourself once. Put one or two buy-ins aside and raise relentlessly. It will not be +EV but it might give you a better idea how to play against them.

Stop bluffing him. Wait for a good hand on the flop to play with. A good hand is player dependent so I can't really give you a specific but sometimes it could mean TPTK sometimes it's A high.

Originally Posted by oskar

Is this limit or no limit?
I don't think it's that hard in limit. You just don't c-bet without a hand, and you try to be a good way ahead of his range if you call, and don't raise unless you're confident you got him.

At NL you should open up, but again not too much. I see too many people reraising these players with air, and get stacked with 3rd pair. That's pretty dumb.
I had exactly that type of player two seats to my left yesterday. I alone made 3 BI from him. Pretty much all I did was call him pf with a top x% range whatever the number of hands he opened up was, then called him down when I had top pair or better, and fold everything else. If you hit second pair you're probably ahead, but you are increasing your variance by a good deal if you play for stacks with these hands.
Also try to pay attention how far they go on a bluff. Many of those guys will fire on the flop and turn every time, but shut down on the river, or just make a psb on the river, but shove if they got it.

Maybe a good idea is to try it yourself once. Put one or two buy-ins aside and raise relentlessly. It will not be +EV but it might give you a better idea how to play against them.

Sorry, this is 25NL (6-max).

The bolded part describes me I wait and wait then after an hour of this or more I always choose the wrong time to "make my stand". I was playing this morning and the same thing started to happen. Instead of letting it go on and on I started playing back much earlier, before it became a habit for them. It seemed to work fairly well. I am guessing that part of it would be to not let the pattern happen in the first place. Also I will take your advice and try their style for a bit. It should be interesting. One thing I do know is one area I need to improve drastically is my 3-betting and 4-betting and also how to respond when 3-4 bet.

How about make +EV plays instead of +ePenis plays.

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

How about make +EV plays instead of +ePenis plays.

So brutal honesty it is.

I realize that all of you want me at your table. That is what I am trying to change. I just feel that there is some thing I am missing which leads me to only making these plays at the very wrong time.

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

How about make +EV plays instead of +ePenis plays.

this.

It sounds a lot like you are getting into these spots out of frustration more than because you think its a good play.

Originally Posted by Shake_N_Bake

I just feel that there is some thing I am missing which leads me to only making these plays at the very wrong time.

Thats because almost every time is the very wrong time if you are talking about getting stacked while you dont have a hand at 25NL.

dont c-bet every flop.
^^ standard reply ^^

*Welcome to FTR btw

Originally Posted by Shake_N_Bake

The new person in that seat will now cause me to eventually make some type of really stupid play and most likely I will leave the table busted.

Originally Posted by Shake_N_Bake

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

How about make +EV plays instead of +ePenis plays.

So brutal honesty it is.

I realize that all of you want me at your table. That is what I am trying to change. I just feel that there is some thing I am missing which leads me to only making these plays at the very wrong time.

The bold should read, "The new person in that seat will now cause me to eventually get frustrated and make some type of really stupid play and most likely I will leave the table busted. Tilt is your main problem.

In reply to the underlined quote, it's not brutal but it is honest. You're just tilting a little. If you're out of position, that's an inherent disadvantage and no amount of getting emotional towards the person who has position on you will change that.

And besides, if we wanted you to lose we wouldn't be giving you the best advice we can offer.

Out of the whole thread, my first reply and the part in italics are the simplest explanations of the problems you have illustrated in the scenario you gave, and they're both fairly easy to fix.

Don't stop bluffing him. Just value bet more, thinner and don't fold goodish hands against his common lines. After winning a couple pots against him like this, mix in some bluffs and floats because he'll have to put you on a hand.

If you're running like shit, find another table because he'll murder and tilt you.

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

And besides, if we wanted you to lose we wouldn't be giving you the best advice we can offer.

This is why I asked the question here. I definitely appreciate the insight and advice.

Thanks for the advice from all. I definitely have a much better plan in mind when it comes to dealing with these situations. Above all if I feel I am getting frustrated by any certain player it is time to at the very least consider leaving the table before the "Matusow Moment".

Table selection is an underated skill. Noones forcing you to stay and play v's a guy whos giving you problems who has position on you.

get position on this @$$hole, switch tables, or adjust...

Originally Posted by bjsaust

Table selection is an underated skill. Noones forcing you to stay and play v's a guy whos giving you problems who has position on you.

After some experimenting, I think the following is true.

Plan A: Play 8 tables at once (no real table selection).

vs.

Plan B: Play 5 tables at once, table selecting like a mofo

Plan B wins in terms of total win rate, especially at the micros, imo. The game just be about relative position, aggression and stack sizes, if we want it to.

Reading how much spoonitnow and others give attention to table selection I have done the same thing. It makes a difference.

So if I'm at a table and a new player starts some funny stuff like playing back against me all the time just to be a bully, I leave. It's that easy. If I'm in the mood I'll nut camp and wait until I can smoke him just to take him down but that's rare because bullies tend to make you play a way you shouldn't just by the way they play against you.

Actually I think table selection is kind of gay, so now I can call you guys homos.

Originally Posted by Robb

Originally Posted by bjsaust

Table selection is an underated skill. Noones forcing you to stay and play v's a guy whos giving you problems who has position on you.

After some experimenting, I think the following is true.

Plan A: Play 8 tables at once (no real table selection).

vs.

Plan B: Play 5 tables at once, table selecting like a mofo

Plan B wins in terms of total win rate, especially at the micros, imo. The game just be about relative position, aggression and stack sizes, if we want it to.

Plan C: play 9 tables and get up from shitty ones when you encouner them

I think it was an old Fnord post, so not sure if he still does it, but his approach at the time was every 10 minutes he closed his worst table and openned a new one. Its sort of organic table selection without being too proactive about it.

Originally Posted by bjsaust

I think it was an old Fnord post, so not sure if he still does it, but his approach at the time was every 10 minutes he closed his worst table and openned a new one. Its sort of organic table selection without being too proactive about it.

That's pretty good, I usually just close tables where:

there is someone loose but not that shitty that keeps on coldcalling me to my left/doesn't let me steal blinds
the VPIP is low/PFR is high

Pretty much what some others have said, but for additional reading, I love Mike Caro's explaination of how to combat the bully:
http://www.bluffmagazine.com/magazin...e-Caro-578.htm

Originally Posted by redpalo

Pretty much what some others have said, but for additional reading, I love Mike Caro's explaination of how to combat the bully:
http://www.bluffmagazine.com/magazin...e-Caro-578.htm

Good article. What I've always heard about dealing with these types is to minimize the amount of money you invest in a pot with them by doing exactly what Mike Caro says. Checking/calling to invest the minimum and then when you draw or flop the nuts make them pay badly.

I read the article, too. Nice link.

The key with maniacs and bullies is patience. They will stack off. If you're fortunate, they'll still have a stack when you make a hand. The key is NOT to move in with mediocre holdings (like I used to) just 'cuz you're upset about being shoved around.

There's another point that hasn't been mentioned: a lot of these bully types like showing down bluffs. But they win a lot of uncontested pots where they DON'T show their cards. They may be overly aggressive, but they aren't completely insane, typically. They have a hand themselves often enough that you need decent values when you take them on.

Interesting article. Thanks for posting the link.