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Changing tactics : My Live Poker Blog

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  1. #151
    There's been no closure. I need f'in closure. Come on Slevein, it's got to be a good story! Throw us a bone, dude.
    Explain...what I do for a living without saying "I make monies in da 600 enels by pwnin' tha donk bitches". Instead I say "I'm a online financial redistribution broker". - Sasquach991
  2. #152
    !Luck's Avatar
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    Waut 3 months and ask hi, then
  3. #153
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    thought i'd check and see if slevin had kept up his blog from the freeroll challenge . Nope , he deleted it but came across this wonderful quote

    http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ml#post1993607 you'll have to scroll up for jyms analogy that he refers to.

    Quote Originally Posted by LuckySlevin View Post
    That's a cool analogy Jyms and I see what you mean! It must seem a bit wacky when you look at it like that. The fact the freeroll challenge is creating profits from nothing, does give the micro stakes that extra zing for me, to motivate me to play them, when I'm playing with my own money I start taking the game seriously but soon find myself getting so bored because of the tiny stakes that I quickly start to play away from my a game.

    The freeroll challenge aspect, the thought that in a couple of years I may be able to say I've created 10k pounds from nothing just gives me the incentive I need to grind when the cash involved is pretty meaningless.

    I realise though that what you say is bang on the money from the lottery ticket idea. The worrying thing is that even after all of this time, I didn't realise that I was effectively spinning a coin when I was playing with a couple of buyins. I knew it was a riskier form of poker - but still believed it to be skill based (which it clearly isn't when you're so underolled)

    The two key things for me as I try to progress and move forward with my poker I think will come down to proper study, and not reverting to lottery ticket syndrome.

    I've been here before I know, but I think the freeroll challenge may just give me that extra motivation in the micros and also the fresh perspective on focussing on a brm plan that I need. It will also mean if I stick to it, win/lose or draw so to speak, the endless string of coins going the wrong way between me and the poker community should be interupted, which has to be a progress of sorts!
    kind of funny that a "thinking player" has come to an "aha" moment and promptly totally ignores it and carries on as before .
  4. #154
    Muzzard's Avatar
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    maybe he died? how would we ever know.
  5. #155
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    Everybody thought the same thing with Jason a while back. He eventually came back tho. Me thinks busto and not willing to fess up.
  6. #156
    Muzzard's Avatar
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    don't let this thread die!
  7. #157
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    So what are we gonna do, just keep bumping it until he starts another operation or decides to
    Throw us a bone, dude
    Thread tag...you're it, Muzz

    Quote Originally Posted by givememyleg View Post
    i'll never understand how anyone can go through life being sober.
  8. #158
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    Hey everyone, thanks for the support - things haven't really gone as anticipated. Had some ups and downs... but ultimately lost my live bankroll. The main reason for this was tilt and also playing some roullette... well might as well be honest with you all.

    I've made goes at coming back over the last few weeks and have had some ups and downs but ultimately am back at square one again. I need to cut the roullette out that's for sure.

    Poker was tough yesterday. I started off with a short stack £50 buy in, and built that up to £860. I cashed out and then played a £75 freezeout. I decided to play a SLAG style as it was deepstacked but my OESD didn't hit and I lost that.

    I then played some more cash 100nl. Built up to £260 then went on to 1/2. Built my £260 up to approx £475. Then got in a hand with a reg at the table, who was playing like a nit this session.

    He raises and I flat with 79(o) - knowing if I hit a big hand I'll stack him (he's not very good) flop is

    8T3 - it's a two tone flop, with heart draw.

    I'm in blinds and there is me and him and one other person in hand action goes.

    early position person bets about 2/3 pot (approx $6) he raises to $15. I call in blinds. ep folds.

    Turn gives me nuts 6s

    Knowing that he's likely putting me on a heart draw if I check, I check to him with intention of check raising all in... works out egggzactly as planned.

    He bets about 2/3 pot - I raise him, he shoves I snap call.. Thoughts of a good days work spring into vision and how tomorrow will see phase II of this live poker push really kick into gear. I then start to think about what hands he could have that could still have outs... flush draw for sure... although I think he's too good to play that like that... then I think about sets... and as I do I suddenly realise this hand isn't over yet.. and then lo and behold he gleefully turns over a set of 33's... I turn over my straight and say sorry - I kind of feel sorry for this guy due to the abscence of anything between his ears, he is pretty inept. Anyway...

    He starts to choke a little and goes a little red in the face... turn pairs the board and he fist pumps and then says oh how could you call that on the flop... then says... oh wait I misread the board... blah blah, yeah good hand, I was a lucky. Then his friends come around and start high fiving him... Yes that made me feel a little better....

    I put my coat on and walk out do a tour of the foyer and walk back in buy back in for £100 (with £100 left in my pocket to my liferoll by now)...

    Shortly after I sit down the guy that bad beat me, calls over the masseur (sp?) and sends her over to me for a 20 minute massage. I turn her away still a little pissed off, but then I think aww he's not all ego after all... Then he says when I turn her down, sorry man... wasn't rubbing you down ... I start to get pissed then realise he probabally didn't even realise what he was saying, poor guy.

    There's only 3 of us at the table and someone asks if we want to play Omaha... I say sure. we do. Bad move in hindsight as it's the most gambling friendly game of poker in the world and I wasn't really in prime control at this moment in time. As it's 1/2 it doesn't take long for my £100 to dissipate.

    Leave at 2am. £50 taxi home, £20 paid back to a friend. Leaves me with £30. Buy travel ticket to work for next week (I'm on holiday this week) and am left with zero.

    It's a sunny day here today which is nice for a change - I'm going to continue to chart my ups and downs in this blog for better or for worse.

    Gone are the heady days of I will make x quadzillion pounds... or become a pro.

    Going forward I wont have any goals here, my only goal is to keep you all informed of what's happening in my efforts to make it in poker and to be honest, and to enjoy sharing the journey...

    The first thing I'm going to work on is cutting the roullette out... That's probabally a good place to start. gl at the tables!
    Last edited by LuckySlevin; 04-06-2011 at 09:31 AM.
  9. #159
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    Remember this




    You need to go back and read the first half of the first page and probably all of your other blogs post by post if you ever really want to learn anything. You still have less of a clue about what you need to do than some of the guys that registered for FTR this year.
  10. #160
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    LuckySlevin I admire your honesty sir. Sorry things crashed but you knew it was a long shot for sure. Keep us posted and work on hour issues for sure.
    "You start the game with a full pot o’ luck and an empty pot o’ experience...
    The object is to fill the pot of experience before you empty the pot of luck."

    Quote Originally Posted by XxStacksxX View Post
    Do you have testicles? If so, learn to bet like it
  11. #161
    This thread is fucking awesome. Someone had to say it.
  12. #162
    Carroters's Avatar
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    Why not take up a hobby that doesn't cost you so much money?
  13. #163
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  14. #164
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    I was speaking to a friend recently and he suggested I should just play higher buy in tournaments but only a cpl of times a year that way if I win something at least its significantly situation changing and I'll be less likely to spew the profit away over the course of the next month or so definately has some merit I think. I'm thinking of entering the live £300 PKR main event at end of this month.

    In the meantime though poker funds are very low, I've just advertised my Itouch - I should get about £80 for it.

    If I sell that I will likely play in a £25 freezout tonight and will just keep playing these while I wait until end of month when I can play some more significant events. I was reading Kill Everyone recently and it suggests two playing styles early in a tourney, either very tight or lag. Elky did mention in the sidenote that lag is for experienced players that have decent post flop skills. I've been playing lag myself in the tournaments I've been entering but having hardly no success. So if i do play tonight I think I'll go for a tag style unless I'm getting a really good price to see a flop with a very good IO type hand.

    What I could really do with is an event that I could save for 2-3 months to enter, something with a buyin of about £1,000 - but they're tricky to find I'm going to keep my eyes open for them, most of what I've seen so far is either £30-300 or £4,000 +
  15. #165
    Why are you listening to advice from your bustoass friends, while ignoring tons of FTR advice?
  16. #166
    jyms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by d0zer View Post
    Why are you listening to advice from your bustoass friends, while ignoring tons of FTR advice?
    Because he's an absolutely addicted gambler not a poker player, and has no plan to follow the advice of people that have got to where he claims to be trying to go. The truth hurts and there is no gamble in the truth. He doesn't really want to be a poker player as evidenced by all the blogs results and the fact that he plays other games with a poker BR. He is just like every other donator we love and why there are sometimes wait lists 10 deep at $50NL and up
  17. #167
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    I am addicted to wanting to make it in poker yes, but not to gambling sir.

    I do have an addictive personality. Fwiw the friend that offered that advice is a very successful business person and there is a distinct logic to the advice.

    i.e. play small, win small, lose small ad infinitum,

    or play big, win big - you have life changing money. you no longer need to force the win as your situation has changed, reevaluate.

    Having said that I will always do as I see best, I factor in advice from many of the ftr people I admire and esteem into my decisions, but as I have to live with the consequences of my decisions I do ultimately decide according to which route I think is preferable to me
  18. #168
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    Edit: Your friend is wrong btw. Play the lotto, bigger prizes, it's cheaper and you have higher odds of winning.
    Last edited by Nakamura; 04-11-2011 at 12:46 PM.
  19. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuckySlevin View Post
    I am addicted to wanting to make it in poker yes, but not to gambling sir.

    I do have an addictive personality. Fwiw the friend that offered that advice is a very successful business person and there is a distinct logic to the advice.
    Business is not poker.

    i.e. play small, win small, lose small ad infinitum,

    or play big, win big - you have life changing money. you no longer need to force the win as your situation has changed, reevaluate.
    Life changing money goes both ways. Even if your in the top 10% of players in a toruney with 100 players at $1K buy ins you could consevably play over 500 times without winning. Are you prepared for that kind of life changing money?

    Having said that I will always do as I see best, I factor in advice from many of the ftr people I admire and esteem into my decisions, but as I have to live with the consequences of my decisions I do ultimately decide according to which route I think is preferable to me
    re the bold, can you actually tell me one thing you have learned and follow from any person here or advice you have got by an FTR member? Just one?
  20. #170
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    whoa just seen you're back Slevin.

    Where were you playing in London? Pm me if you want. I'm looking to start playing some live in London and sounds like the games were pretty soft.

    GL.
    Normski
  21. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuckySlevin View Post
    I was speaking to a friend recently and he suggested I should just play higher buy in tournaments but only a cpl of times a year that way if I win something at least its significantly situation changing and I'll be less likely to spew the profit away over the course of the next month or so definately has some merit I think. I'm thinking of entering the live £300 PKR main event at end of this month.

    In the meantime though poker funds are very low, I've just advertised my Itouch - I should get about £80 for it.
    Slev - I'm not a hater , I (and others) just want to save yourself from yourself.Selling your stuff to play poker is plain crazy , just as playing higher buyin tournaments a few times a year is. Sure if you win its life changing money . But be honest , are you likely to make that money. We advised putting some of your 3000$ winnings to one side and using it for a rainy day , or treat youself/your mum to something nice.

    JUst think of those high buyin tournies as turning up for a trial at arsenal/spurs/chelsea . Do you really have the skills to succeed and get signed up or are you really just going to be a regular for the red lion sunday league team.
    If I sell that I will likely play in a £25 freezout tonight and will just keep playing these while I wait until end of month when I can play some more significant events. I was reading Kill Everyone recently and it suggests two playing styles early in a tourney, either very tight or lag. Elky did mention in the sidenote that lag is for experienced players that have decent post flop skills. I've been playing lag myself in the tournaments I've been entering but having hardly no success. So if i do play tonight I think I'll go for a tag style unless I'm getting a really good price to see a flop with a very good IO type hand.
    why not put the money on stars and do 2nl , play tight and take that money up with STRICT BRM for a change. Allow your self to save for the big tourney if you want and consider that your treat for doing the grind through the limits. You aren't going to save for the treat (big buy in )if you keep playing 25£ + tournies regularly.
    What I could really do with is an event that I could save for 2-3 months to enter, something with a buyin of about £1,000 - but they're tricky to find I'm going to keep my eyes open for them, most of what I've seen so far is either £30-300 or £4,000 +
    What you need is to learn patience and stick to bankroll management and and self discipline. All those fares to/from the live tourneys are all going to cut into your savings. Grind the micros , build a roll . read Muzzards staking thread/op to see how quickly money can be made at the micros. Hopefully once you can make money and beat the micros you will want to earn your way to large tourneys and give up on the need for instant success that seems to drive you and is the cause of most of your failiures.
  22. #172
    yeah,

    inb4 slevin does anything other than build up a roll playing poker online using disciplined BRM

    guess that much is obvious though.

    I mean jesus if you had stopped yourself at that point where you had 860 pounds you could have deposited for like 1.5k or whatever and played 50s deep rolled, 9 tabling FR or 6 tabling 6-max and, you know, actually have a reasonable chance at showing profit over the long term.

    EDIT: oh yeah your friend is a retard if he thinks that's a good idea. do you really expect to improve as a tournament player, playing in only 2 tournaments - in which you are heavily outclassed by the field - per year?
    Last edited by Penneywize; 04-11-2011 at 05:03 PM.
  23. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuckySlevin View Post
    I am addicted to wanting to make it in poker yes, but not to gambling sir.
    Hmm....

    Had some ups and downs... but ultimately lost my live bankroll. The main reason for this was tilt and also playing some roullette
    Sounds to me like a gambling addict. Let me think about this, I'm playing 36:1 but the house only pays 35:1 -EV.

    What I could really do with is an event that I could save for 2-3 months to enter, something with a buyin of about £1,000
    The skill level as you approach the final table or two in a tournament of this level will prolly have you wishing that you had taken that 1,000 and dumped it into a poker site and followed some of the advice from people that you claim to admire. You mentioned
    life changing money
    but in order to get that you either need to be extremely lucky, aka Moneymaker, or extremely skilled. You may recover your BI, but I realy do believe that your time and monies would be better spent elsewhere trying to learn some discipline.

    Quote Originally Posted by givememyleg View Post
    i'll never understand how anyone can go through life being sober.
  24. #174
    slevin, if you only play a couple big events a year you won't provide us rubberneckers nearly enough entertainment.

    also lol donkaments
  25. #175
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    ha, good point Dozer!

    Keith pleased to see your upward graph last time I checked in your hard work was really paying off a few months ago, hopefully it still is!

    hey Will long time no hear, hope you're doing well, yes for sure would be good to meet up at some point definately up for that maybe in like 3 months time if you still fancy hitting a london casino (well probabally didn't phrase that quite right, oceans eleven springs to mind lol) - but sure you get my point.

    Jyms - What have I learnt, wow where should I start ?

    I've invested quite a bit of time on training sites over the years so it's hard for me to pinpoint exactly what I've learnt from FTR but when I think back one of the earliest and most important technical lessons I learnt was from ftr and that was to play the opponent and not your own static idea of how you should be playing. Poker isn't played in a vacuum and that was a big lesson that I took a while to learn but I did learn none the less thanks to these forums.

    What I've learnt from FTR was a good question though and got me thinking about wider things - something that took a while to sink in but has been worth it's weight in gold, is not to take negative criticism to heart. When I look back on my early days here, when I knew nothing about poker let alone internet forums, I used to take everything that was said so personally. I've learnt detachment and pride myself in my skill now to be able to absorb genuine advice that might be useful. Attached to this I've also learnt to depersonalise advice that might have intrinsic worth, but is emotionally charged such that I can still benefit from it without getting my ego wrapped up in futile confrontations. To continue the spectrum, at the far end I've learnt to ignore advice that seems either misplaced, or just malign in intent, there is only a very small % of advice that falls into this category, and from memory I haven't received any recently but it's still useful to have that skill set.

    Depersonalising posts is a very valuable thing to be able to do, many times (even in the last 3 months) my knee jerk reaction to certain posts was to connect with them at some egoic emotional level but having learnt patience and right view I didn't, I simply ignored any derogotary overtones and focussed on the learning content of what was being said. Only to find the same poster shortly after posted some obvious genuinely well intended advice that I might have overlooked perhaps a year or two ago when I was quite immature with my interactions on forums.


    These skills have really improved my forum experience and also aided my learning journey.

    So I would say in terms of pure poker knowledge I've learnt about dynamic hand ranges, I've learnt about the importance of playing the opponent and being aware of changing table dynamics. I've also learnt to hand read fairly well IMhumbleO and lots of this is due to FTR.

    I've also learnt (and I'd say probabally exclusively FTR has been the best teacher here for me) what my own weaknesses are: -

    My biggest weakness as most people that know me at FTR will testify to is (1) my lack of discipline at the table. (2) My second biggest weakness and this is linked to discipline really is knowing when to bluff and when not to (could probabally take every non cbet bluff out of my game and vastly improve my winrate) - and finally I'd say (3) my third biggest weakness is emotional control. All of these three are closely interwoven. A misplaced bluff that is called, might induce inner emotional problems (such as how could that idiot call me, or how could I be such a retard and bluff him - the end results being the same which is a lowering of discipline) - which increases tendency to play a less superior strategy, and the cycle perpetuates. All of this I've learnt from having to continually 'own up' here to my derailed attempts at 'making it' and by objectively considering what people have had to say about these things. I should also add that I've also studied CBT and spent some time witnessing my own reactions, but definately I'd say FTR has probabally given me about 80% of the insights I have today about the weaknesses in my own game that I may never have been aware of if I was simply playing on my own with no poker friends to discuss my strategy / goals / progress towards those goals, etc. with.

    Perhaps the most enjoyable of lessons I've learnt from my time on FTR is that there are always people in life, regardless of their authority or high relative levels of achievement that care about peoples aspirations and genuinely want to see other people succeed - I've seen this fact further echoed in my own life away from the forums - but I first caught sight of it here at FTR. It is these many many gems in the rough, that I've come to love on FTR and this is the main reason that keeps me posting




    Of course the ultimate test though, to really prove I have learnt valuable information will be to make it as a winning player and I'm a way off from that place yet - but I'll continue trying and continue to keep everyone posted!

    p.s. it's almost 11:10pm now and I have had 'Bored to Death' on pause for 50 minutes a programme I got into recently that I really reccomend if anyone hasn't seen them (I think we're a bit behind in the UK so maybe some of you have!), so am off to watch it now. Just wanted to answer some of the questions, thanks everyone, gl at the tables

    p.p.s. I did sell my itouch, so now have a small bankroll back (£90) will let you know how it goes!
    Last edited by LuckySlevin; 04-11-2011 at 06:50 PM.
  26. #176
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    Slevin, I admire how you're able to avoid taking things personally. You're always so nice to everyone even when they're harsh with you, which isn't something that most people can do!

    If you are happy with playing poker FOR FUN and you can accept that you will probably NOT make money when you play, I think it's a fine idea to play larger buy-in tournaments. If you want to play bigger buy-ins, make sure you're playing series tournaments with large fields. Can you get to an EPT or something? I wouldn't play the Main Event of an EPT, but I would definitely recommend the side events. You'll still have fun and be able to win a big 1st place prize if you play a £300 to £1,000 side tournament during a series.

    Good luck! Make sure you keep posting because, as you can see, your blog is insanely popular.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fnord View Post
    Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.

    blog: http://donkeybrainspoker.com/
  27. #177
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    Bikes! You was one of my hero's since your last bout of encouraging posts - you're on the slipperly slope as of now my friend! (only joking ) interesting read... it reminds me of something - i'll get onto it in a sec....but before I do.... I would just like to say....

    Courtney!!!! ty you're always so kind... such a hero, how could FTR ever hope for a better champion of everything ftr stands for / (should) stand for? You encourage and always have your own shine to bring to threads. I'm not kidding when I say you're at least 20% of the reason why I post here, and considering that Xianti (and the way he was so friendly when I first joined, in stopping huge trolling) is at least another 20% of the reason why I continue to post and the likes of Daven, Kmizzle, and Bikes(on a good day!), Wilburforce, Mr Swayer (whatever happened to his bar!) - and dare I say it Jyms! I know there is a decent person behind that veneer of tough love, make up at least another 20-40% of the reason why I post here, I hope it goes some way to show you how much I value your input. Seriously you guys outlined above, make FTR what it is. Really deserve huge kudos.

    Oh and off course BjAustin wherever he may be lurking these days... and shotglass and ... Griffey! (was such a huge encouragement lately) and keith's also a nice guy. And Harley (esp he's encouraging pm's) such diamonds in this place, thank you for the support.

    Spoonit i think is well intentioned behind all the ego.... but i guess what I'm trying to say... is....

    This is an amazing place in itself ignoring the poker aspect, and given that so many decent poker players live here, it's a must for any poker enthusiast (even if they do continually lose their income playing!)

    So thanks again for the postive vibes those of you that keep vibing, and gl at the tables... and please those of you that are positive, stay positive, because for new poker players, particularly those like myself who don't have any serious poker friends, this place (FTR) can be the difference between someone meddling and continually losing money and developing a life long passion for the game so ty


    ok... i never got onto the bikes point i do have something intelligent to say but given my emotional state atm (no im not crying just very jubilant lol <3 ftr) i think i'll wait until tomorrow. Also i have had a few pints which probabaly explains this outflow of (hugely deserved) love.
    Last edited by LuckySlevin; 04-12-2011 at 04:10 PM.
  29. #179
    Best. Thread. Ever.
  30. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by LuckySlevin View Post
    ...this place (FTR) can be the difference between someone meddling and continually losing money and developing a life long passion for the game...
    You know you could do both of these simultaneously.
    Explain...what I do for a living without saying "I make monies in da 600 enels by pwnin' tha donk bitches". Instead I say "I'm a online financial redistribution broker". - Sasquach991
  31. #181
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  32. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robb View Post
    Best. Thread. Ever.
    +1
    "You start the game with a full pot o’ luck and an empty pot o’ experience...
    The object is to fill the pot of experience before you empty the pot of luck."

    Quote Originally Posted by XxStacksxX View Post
    Do you have testicles? If so, learn to bet like it
  33. #183
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    GL slev with the tournament?

    definitely keep us posted, and i want to say i agree with courtiebee honestly you have one of the most positive upbeat attitudes around, i hope good things come your way. GLGLGL!!!
  34. #184
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    FTR needed some more degens, Count me among your fans plz.
    Family Cruise IMO
  35. #185
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    sent you a PM to consider.
  36. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith_MM View Post
    sent you a PM to consider.
    how dare you potentially deprive us of an awesome PM exchange.

    air your entertaining grievances in public sir!
  37. #187
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    I apologize for not reading all of this thread or all of your past threads, so if I say something that has already been said or if I am misstating something, that's why. From what I HAVE read, at the heart of your roadblocks I think are some pretty simple concepts related to focus and bankroll management. You don't need to do any experiments. You don't need any advice from your friends. You don't have to figure anything out. The work has already been done. It's proven. It's solid. It works. I get the impression you've NEVER tried it, but if you REALLY want to succeed, I'll spell out the steps for you. If you're more interested in gambling, keep doing what you've been doing and you'll continue to get the results you've got.

    Step 1: Decide what game you want to play. Live, online, cash, tournament, NL, PLO, Limit, Stud. Whatever. Just decide and STICK with it. Don't move to any other game, structure, or type. You don't want to be a jack of all trades and a master of none. You DO want to be a master of one game. Trying to play tournaments AND cash games makes about as much sense as trying take Calculus I before you've had Algebra. Until you've proved you CAN do one thing, don't TRY to do another. I personally chose online NLHE full ring cash games and I recommend it to everyone who wants to make money at poker. I chose online because I can play it anytime I want AND multi-table. I chose NLHE because it's the most popular game with the most players and most fish and the game that you can best leverage your skill imo PLUS it's the Cadillac of poker. I chose full ring because it's EASIER than 6m or HU. I chose cash games because there's less variance, more consistent results, more freedom, and less frustration than tournaments.

    You don't have to choose my path, but you DO need to choose ONE path and stick with it. If you play tournaments and cash games or NLHE and PLO or anything except ONE game type, you've failed step 1 and aren't serious about success.

    Step 2: Bankroll Management. If you went busto, you obviously haven't been following bankroll management. You will NEVER succeed until you follow bankroll management. Bankroll management is MUCH more important than skill. Skill cannot overcome lack of bankroll management. The rules are pretty simple. For CASH games, you need AT LEAST 30 NLHE buy-ins (one buy-in is 100bb) of cash in the bank or your account to play. For SNG tournaments, you need 50 buy-ins. For MTT tournaments, you need 100 buy-ins. Those are MINIMUM requirements. You might be wise to have more, but NEVER less. For Limit Hold'em, you need 300 big bets. For PLO, you need 50 buy-ins. For any other game I didn't mention, you need to do the research to find an equivalent bankroll. If you don't have it, don't play it. Simple as that. But, let's say it again for dramatic effect: If you don't have it, don't play it. Simple as that. Once you have it, you can play down to 20 buy-ins cash game, 35 buy-ins SNG, or 70 buy-ins for MTT's, or 200 big bets for limit. Basically, you can lose a third of your full bankroll taking a shot up. If that happens, you need to move DOWN stakes IMMEDIATELY. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200. Do not move UP again until you have the full 30 buy-ins or whatever your the requirements for your game.

    So, to play $1/$2 in a casino, that's a $200 buy-in. You need 30 buy-ins before you can even have a seat or play a hand. That's $6,000 MINIMUM. When you said you recently went busto, you were playing $200NL with far less than $6,000, more like 2 to 3 hundred. That's completely unacceptable.

    "But, Jason, live games are easier than online"
    "Don't care."
    "But, I'm better than those players."
    "Don't care."
    "But, I've been really working on my game."
    "Don't care."

    You need 30 buy-ins MINIMUM at all NLHE cash game stakes live or online. If you're busto and want to play LIVE, you need to get second job, save up a $100 and start a home game with 1 cent 2 cent blinds. Or, save up $300 and start a home game with 5 cent 10 cent blinds. Or, save up $1,500 and start a home game with 25 cent 50 cent blinds. That's pretty much the highest you can play live until you prove you're a winner somewhere. You can NOT go straight to the casino unless you have $3000 AND they spread 50 cent a dollar OR you have $6000 and you play $1/$2.

    Not very glamorous, is it? Not something someone with a gambling problem would want to do. A person with a gambling problem needs the rush and excitement of REAL money, not the embarrassing, meaningless money of literally playing for pennies. There's no rush getting it all-in for $2. However, someone who REALLY wants to succeed in poker and has the patience to pay their dues and learn the game WOULD do exactly that. Myself and many others have done EXACTLY that. I started with a $100 bankroll LITERALLY playing for pennies with ONE table online. I stuck to my rules though and slowly moved up adding tables VERY gradually. Click on Donkey Kong below for the back-story if you're interested. I went from 1 table for 1 cent 2 cent to being on the verge of playing 7 tables $400NL with a $16k bankroll in a relatively short time.

    Unfortunately for me, PokerStars changed their cash games in a very negative way last year and I had to take a step back. Then, I got burnt out at poker, took a 6 month break, and had to take ANOTHER step back once I was ready to play again. But, I'm back at $100NL and winning and making decent money and both ENJOYING poker and SUCCEEDING at poker. To date, I've never had to move down because I lost 10 buy-ins. To go busto, I'd have to lose 10 buy-ins at 6 different stakes in a row while I move down with each 10 buy-in loss. I've made over $20k at poker and hope to be on track to make well over $10k this year. All of that's possible if you stick to the rules. None of it's possible if you don't. Any "success" you luck box breaking the rules will be gone if you continue to break them. It's not an opinion. It's a mathematical fact. You just have to play long enough to realize your failure.

    Step 3: Learn to beat the game. Poker is like a video game. There are levels that get progressively harder. Online $100NL is tougher than $25NL. There is no one, LONG TERM, who is a winner at $100NL who could not ALSO beat $25NL. So, if you're a long term LOSER at $25NL, you are also a loser at $50NL, $100NL, and any game higher up. The same applies to live. So, you have to start from the bottom and PROVE you are a winner before you can move up. Both because you need the money AND because you have to prove you are a winner. This is critical. If you don't prove you are a winner, then how will you know you're ready for the next level? Simply having the bankroll is not enough, you have to EARN the bankroll from the tables and PROVE you can beat the level.

    When I came back from my 6 month layoff, I had near a $10k bankroll. Did I jump into $200NL games? Hell no. I started at $25NL. Won 10 buy-ins and when Stars announced they were getting rid of their terribadfail 50bb max games, I then moved up to $50NL. I just recently completed winning 30 buy-ins @ $50NL and have again PROVED I can beat that level. Now I'm ready to tackle $100NL again. If you can beat the games, it doesn't take long to move up. If you can't beat the game, it takes forever ... literally. Winners graphs always move from Southwest to Northeast. Losers graphs always move from Northwest to Southeast.

    So, step 1, focus, step 2, bankroll management, step 3, beat the levels, and step 4: move up and profit.

    That's all you or anyone has to do. You may make it to $1kNL or you may only make it to $10NL. Who knows? But, start from the bottom from scratch and figure it out if you're a REAL poker player. If you're a gambler looking for a fix, keep betting on black on the roulette wheel or playing $1/$2 PLO on a $200 and some change bankroll. The choice is yours. Good luck and have fun no matter what you choose.
    - Jason

  38. #188
    ^ what a waste of some really good advice
  39. #189
    jyms's Avatar
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    That's why you read threads, it actually saves you time and effort.
  40. #190
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    Heh. I assume you mean because what I wrote will fall on deaf ears? I already considered that and still chose to post it as it might help any onlookers
    - Jason

  41. #191
    Jason, when you advise to win 30 BI's "at the tables" before moving up, do you count stellar bonuses or bonuses purchased w/ fpp's?
    Explain...what I do for a living without saying "I make monies in da 600 enels by pwnin' tha donk bitches". Instead I say "I'm a online financial redistribution broker". - Sasquach991
  42. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by PlayToWin View Post
    Jason, when you advise to win 30 BI's "at the tables" before moving up, do you count stellar bonuses or bonuses purchased w/ fpp's?
    No, rakeback is just gravy and extra coushin to pad the bankroll. You need to win 30 buy-ins of stone cold cash directly from the table and can not count rakeback, bonuses, milestone hands, promotions, buffet vouchers, and the like.
    - Jason

  43. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    Heh. I assume you mean because what I wrote will fall on deaf ears? I already considered that and still chose to post it as it might help any onlookers
    Jason I'd advice/request you modify that post slightly and put it in the BC where it can be stickied!
    "You start the game with a full pot o’ luck and an empty pot o’ experience...
    The object is to fill the pot of experience before you empty the pot of luck."

    Quote Originally Posted by XxStacksxX View Post
    Do you have testicles? If so, learn to bet like it
  44. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    No, rakeback is just gravy and extra coushin to pad the bankroll. You need to win 30 buy-ins of stone cold cash directly from the table and can not count rakeback, bonuses, milestone hands, promotions, buffet vouchers, and the like.
    This is just you projecting your own BR nititude on others. You don't "need" to do anything like that, you need to do what's best for your own situation given your risk tolerance, your reliance on your roll, your ability to beat the games and varying degrees of other factors that differ person to person.

    There's no question that slevin's BR management is bad (or non-existent), but the recent trend towards people saying you have to have X BI (where X > 20) is just another form of strict, absolute rules about BRM that just don't apply to everyone's situation.
  45. #195
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    Wow thanks for the replies guys really motivating to read them. Jason ty so much for taking the time to put that plan in a post. You make the point about brm really clear and you do make me realise that no matter how good I think I am, or how much I don't want to play for pennies, all I'm doing when I do anything else without good BRM is gambling.

    You're right. I don't want to be using poker as a vehicle for gambling. I want to play winning solid poker. You hit the nail on the head about the different games as well, in the last week or two live, i've played turbo mtts, deep stacked mtts, live cash, live plo. It's just stupid to be doing all of that - unless you're playing just to gamble money - which is something I don't want to be doing, even though I know sometimes it must look like I do.

    I don't know how you did this spooky esp thing...

    "But, Jason, live games are easier than online"
    "Don't care."
    "But, I'm better than those players."
    "Don't care."
    "But, I've been really working on my game."
    "Don't care."
    But very useful I think you read my mind.

    I've really been focussing on moving my life forward lately. I decided today that going forward I will try hard to follow the excellent advice here on FTR instead of continually trying to blaze my own path. Sure the maverick that goes straight into 200nl making a good living from playing poker from a standing start sounds glamorous. But the reality is I've been chasing that glamour for a good few years now and it's high time I started to wise up. So your post was great timing and will form a great basis for me to start from thanks again man.

    Keith ty for the PM sounds really interesting, am just about to reply,

    Gl all!!
    Last edited by LuckySlevin; 04-13-2011 at 07:11 PM.
  46. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by HarleyGuy13 View Post
    Jason I'd advice/request you modify that post slightly and put it in the BC where it can be stickied!
    +1

    Quote Originally Posted by givememyleg View Post
    i'll never understand how anyone can go through life being sober.
  47. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by HarleyGuy13 View Post
    Jason I'd advice/request you modify that post slightly and put it in the BC where it can be stickied!
    Edit: +2
    Last edited by Robb; 04-13-2011 at 08:33 PM.
  48. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by d0zer View Post
    This is just you projecting your own BR nititude on others. You don't "need" to do anything like that, you need to do what's best for your own situation given your risk tolerance, your reliance on your roll, your ability to beat the games and varying degrees of other factors that differ person to person.

    There's no question that slevin's BR management is bad (or non-existent), but the recent trend towards people saying you have to have X BI (where X > 20) is just another form of strict, absolute rules about BRM that just don't apply to everyone's situation.
    +1
  49. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by d0zer View Post
    This is just you projecting your own BR nititude on others. You don't "need" to do anything like that, you need to do what's best for your own situation given your risk tolerance, your reliance on your roll, your ability to beat the games and varying degrees of other factors that differ person to person.

    There's no question that slevin's BR management is bad (or non-existent), but the recent trend towards people saying you have to have X BI (where X > 20) is just another form of strict, absolute rules about BRM that just don't apply to everyone's situation.
    Dozer, I got a bit different message when I read Jason's post. He was using the 30 BI mark to make sure he had his game back in shape for a move up, so he personally wanted to be sure he was beating the game. Note that he only ground out 10 BI's at 25nl, and then moved up. He adjusted his requirements as the games got tougher.

    The question wasn't, "how many BI's should you have before moving up?" The question was, "How can you be sure you're ready for the next level up?"

    And I think he's got some evidence for knowing for sure when he's ready to move up, since he's never had to move back down except after long layoffs when - I can assure you - you really suck at poker for a good few thousand hands. I didn't take it as some rigid metric he was imposing on everyone, just some solid advice for evaluating where you're game is and when you're ready to move on.
  50. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by Robb View Post
    Dozer, I got a bit different message when I read Jason's post. He was using the 30 BI mark to make sure he had his game back in shape for a move up, so he personally wanted to be sure he was beating the game. Note that he only ground out 10 BI's at 25nl, and then moved up. He adjusted his requirements as the games got tougher.

    The question wasn't, "how many BI's should you have before moving up?" The question was, "How can you be sure you're ready for the next level up?"

    And I think he's got some evidence for knowing for sure when he's ready to move up, since he's never had to move back down except after long layoffs when - I can assure you - you really suck at poker for a good few thousand hands. I didn't take it as some rigid metric he was imposing on everyone, just some solid advice for evaluating where you're game is and when you're ready to move on.
    fwiw, I do advocate being a little more cautious when moving up to a stake you've never played before, but I find a lot of players now exercising just absurdly nitty BRM and preaching it as if it's divine law.

    Apologies to Jason if that wasn't the case.
  51. #201
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    ugh but slevin you shouldve been around ftr long enough to know all of what jason stated....he just spelled it out i guess. neways the point is start "somewhere" set a goal for X buyins to win before moving up and X buyins for moving down. X buyins can vary from person to person but just stick to what that X is.
  52. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Robb View Post
    Best. Thread. Ever.
    LOL
    Explain...what I do for a living without saying "I make monies in da 600 enels by pwnin' tha donk bitches". Instead I say "I'm a online financial redistribution broker". - Sasquach991
  53. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuckySlevin View Post
    it reminds me of something - i'll get onto it in a sec....but before I do.... I would just like to say....


    ok... i never got onto the bikes point i do have something intelligent to say but given my emotional state atm (no im not crying just very jubilant lol <3 ftr) i think i'll wait until tomorrow. Also i have had a few pints which probabaly explains this outflow of (hugely deserved) love.
    come on Slev, please don't leave us hangin like that
    Last edited by Shotglass; 04-14-2011 at 01:20 PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by givememyleg View Post
    i'll never understand how anyone can go through life being sober.
  54. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shotglass View Post
    come on Slev, please don't leave us hangin like that
    ha... well, here was my thinking on it.


    Dunning–Kruger effect which I had never heard of before seems very interesting. It encompasses the well known pitfall that all *good* players are taught to avoid and that is over complicating their strategy by x level thinking. He thinks I think etc... Also at a simpler level it can be as simple as thinking - he has bet like this, he would never do that with xyz range (because that would be stupid) - so therefore I give him credit for cyx range - when in fact you are only doing this because you ascribe him the same thinking capabilities as yourself - the article refers to this when it states :
    "Actual competence may weaken self-confidence, as competent individuals may falsely assume that others have an equivalent understanding"
    But with poker I think it's more than simply a lowering of confidence, it's a lowering of your actual ability (as it would be a prime example of not adjusting properly to your opponents) - which I thought was interesting.

    The deeper and wider realisation I had when reading this was how this effect relates to the idea that we each literally create our own reality every day. Not in some mumbo jumbo mystical way, but in very real and pragmatic terms. Eastern spiritualists have for centuries realised the floor in dualistic thinking (that there is me and I am seperate from everything outside of me). The truth is we are not seperate from other people or things - it is only the bifurcating nature of our minds that give us this illusion.

    There are so many consequnces to this delusion, the delusion that what we 'see' is the absolute truth of reality. By simply shifting where we focus our attention we can see completely different things (that never existed to us before) - by changing our values, we can change the content of our world, what we once perceived white we might now perceive as black. This is only possible because our minds discriminite the perfect oneness of being into limited concepts of the mind, concepts which are no closer to *the reality* of the situation, than a three of spades is to a ten of clubs .

    Descartes famous quip:

    Cogito Ergo Sum
    - I think, therefore I am


    Expresses this falacy completely, for the more enlightened would argue that far from being our thinking...Thinking, or every day consciousness (i.e. that we are seperate entities and exist independently of our world) is the problem that needs to be overcome. Yet it cannot be overcome by thinking, for if reason is the problem, you can not solve it by reason.
    The point that we can never truly know what exists but only continually refine our understanding of what is there to improve our lives puts a huge amount of responsibility on us to build the lives we deserve by ensuring we tailor our perceptions, thoughts, and consequent actions, to create the world we want to live in.

    I found it interesting how this Dunning-Kruger effect seems to embody this idea. You take a situation (i.e. a headsup game of poker, to keep it simple, with two players of relative abilities). Yet both players will see completely different situations. The lesser player due to his ignorance will perceive a simplicity that doesn't exist to a stronger opponent, yet exists to him/her, and this will affect the way he/she behaves. Whereas the better player due to his/her deeper understanding of the complexities at play will also see a completely different situation, he/she will react differently as a result (e.g. by giving villian too much credit, or by realising that short term wins do not form good evidence of future success) - the key though is that both are looking at exactly the same situation and getting two very different relative renderings of that situation - they are literally in different worlds.


    They will perceive the situation differently, they will act different as a result, and they will generate different outcomes as a result.

    This seems like a great microcosm of the world at large. It is something to this day that inspires me to ensure the world I see and create every day is the world I want to live in (there's the old dualistic thinking creeping back in already) . I have glimpsed brief periods where my thinking has collapsed and I feel a oneness with everything I had previously perceived to be outside of myself. But it's always fleeting. This effect reminded me of this and that's what I thought interesting!
    Last edited by LuckySlevin; 04-14-2011 at 02:35 PM.
  55. #205
    Muzzard's Avatar
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    I think you've taken too much lsd
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    lol i wished i wasn't such a wuss i'd love to take halucinogenic drugs but im too scarred =(
  57. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuckySlevin View Post
    lol i wished i wasn't such a wuss i'd love to take halucinogenic drugs but im too scarred =(
    you should try it at least once!
  58. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muzzard View Post
    you should try it at least once!
    Worked for Walt Disney although I think it was more than once!
    "You start the game with a full pot o’ luck and an empty pot o’ experience...
    The object is to fill the pot of experience before you empty the pot of luck."

    Quote Originally Posted by XxStacksxX View Post
    Do you have testicles? If so, learn to bet like it
  59. #209
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    Hey everyone! Hope you're poker's going well and life in general is. Royal wedding this weekend over here in the UK. Whole of London is slowly grinding to a halt. I'm not really a royalist so don't see what all the hype is about... but I know from watching the news some people have spent thousands of pounds getting over here to watch it... I think it's crazy in this day and age that royalty is still revered in this way but anyway... back to poker.

    My poker has been on hold recently following some discussions I had with Keith after his pm to me earlier, as mentioned in my blog. Keith offered me a staking deal which meant I would be playing under a stake starting at 2nl and grinding it up to 50nl. Throughout I will be sharing profits with staker but in return I have advantage of coaching all the way up to 50nl from a number of different people that are already proven winners.

    This was a great deal for me, as I think it will finally be what I need to get me beating this game. Already from watching some videos that Keith directed me to (and I have watched tonnes of videos before...) - I learnt quite a fair bit.

    I've thrown my old game out (as told to do so by person in video) and am rebuilding it from scratch specfically to crush 2nl. Once I'm moving out of 2nl I'll tweak it moving onwards for 5nl, 10nl, etc.

    One of the people coaching is the person that made that video series and the others are all winners in their games, Keith has put details up in the staking thread. http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...nt-187020.html

    So things are looking good on the poker front for me at the moment. Live will be recreational whenever I play and completely seperate to my main poker pursuit now which will be grinding this bankroll up all the way to 50nl. Will post random updates here from time to time, and will be posting biggest losing/winning hands from each session over in the staking thread
    Last edited by LuckySlevin; 04-28-2011 at 09:33 AM.
  60. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by d0zer View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith_MM View Post
    sent you a PM to consider.
    how dare you potentially deprive us of an awesome PM exchange.

    air your entertaining grievances in public sir!

    well i guess you can now deduce what the PM was about ....and black friday made things difficult to say the least getting this organized.
  61. #211
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    GL, Slev. PLEASE follow the rulls that were posted in your staking forum and the advice of your coaches. I think you'll learn a lot.
    I doubt I'll be the only one watching with interest.

    To the coaches: I agree with Muzz's comments in the stake thread, but GL to all.

    Quote Originally Posted by givememyleg View Post
    i'll never understand how anyone can go through life being sober.
  62. #212
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    GL Slevin, Rungood!!!!
  63. #213
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    Thanks for the support guys really appreciate it, got off to a good start, first session showed a profit, I'm going to do my best to get the volume in and play well now this is up and running.
  64. #214
    Just found this. Slevin, you're incorrigible. You remind me of a guy named Casey Serin. Is there any chance you drink wheatgrass juice?

    But gl on the grind, sir. I think you'll find the road to manies shorter if you take the longer but paved road these fine people are providing you rather than the "shortcut" through the mountains you seem to have been hellbent on taking in the past.
  65. #215
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    Hey Benny!!! Thanks

    Yes I totally agree. For too long I've been beating that ever winding path that led in a whirling circuitous motion back to it's origin time and time again... I not only have the basic style and propper bankroll management now, I have some really dedicated people helping me. Keith spent 3 hours helping me yesterday. I'm also getting some great reviews on my hands I'm playing.

    I have everything I could hope for to improve. I'm lucky, and need to just put the work in now, stop tilting, and concentrate on grinding and i'll finally be moving closer to my goals of being a decent winning poker player
    Last edited by LuckySlevin; 05-04-2011 at 09:11 PM.
  66. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by LuckySlevin View Post
    I have everything I could hope for to improve.
    First...if you busto, I wanna take your spot. You're very fortunate. I have a small roll on a new site and am playing 4NL (lowest level available) since PS went busto. I'd be glad to start over at 2NL for the coaching opportunity. On PS, I was ready to move up to 25NL with $760 BR.
    Explain...what I do for a living without saying "I make monies in da 600 enels by pwnin' tha donk bitches". Instead I say "I'm a online financial redistribution broker". - Sasquach991
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    i'm not going to busto mr, sorry
    Last edited by LuckySlevin; 05-05-2011 at 12:13 PM.
  68. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by LuckySlevin View Post
    i'm not going to busto mr, sorry
    inb4 side bets
  69. #219
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    I'll take action on that as long as I can pay with UB rolls.

    Quote Originally Posted by givememyleg View Post
    i'll never understand how anyone can go through life being sober.
  70. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Shotglass View Post
    I'll take action on that as long as I can pay with UB rolls.
    That's like paying with HD DVD players.
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    Sup everyone, hope you're all playing well and enjoying life etc.

    It's been a long old 3 weeks here and there's pluses and minuses.

    [+] I don't think I've ever stayed playing one stake this long before in my life
    [+] thanks to bonuses ($20) so far, I am almost breakeven
    [-] spewing off 10bi's at start of a month has a big effect on bottom line
    [-] I'm realising how hard it is to play poker when you play it as you should
    - i.e... 200nl seems a very long waaaay away



    I've got a cruise ship as my wallpaper it's motivating me to keep grinding, but I work full time, get up at 6.20am get in at 7pm, so it's hard to fit many hands in in the week. My plan was to be on it in a year on my poker profits but we'll see, will need to pick up the pace if that's going to be the case.

    So plan for rest of month is play well and move on up above the $0 mark.
    Last edited by LuckySlevin; 05-19-2011 at 07:10 PM.
  72. #222
    Shotglass's Avatar
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    Good work Slev. Keep it up, listen to your coaches and you'll get there.
  73. #223
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    Thanks mate
  74. #224
    Vi-Zer0Skill's Avatar
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    respect, good work sticking to the plan Slev!
    Quote Originally Posted by Carroters
    Ambition is fucking great, but you're trying to dig up gold with a rocket launcher and are going to blow the whole lot to shit unless you refine your tools
  75. #225
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    Thanks Vi!

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