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Estimating Ranges: Practicing

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fingerflinger

08-24-2010, 05:42 AM Post subject: Estimating Ranges: Practicing

#1 (permalink)

High Card

Join Date: Dec 2009

Posts: 12

So, I am terrible at putting people on ranges and want to improve. For the past few sessions, I have been playing just 2 tables and trying to reevaluate my opponents' ranges at each street/action. I simply can't keep up with even that pace.

For a starting point pre-flop, I am using PokerStove tables of some common VPIP and PFR stats. I am also spending time with old hand histories, but whenever I actually play, I basically have to abandon what I have been practicing just so that I can keep up.

Here's an example of what I am attempting: (Advice on the hand is appreciated as well.)

Full Tilt Poker $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players - $0 pot at $0.01/0.02 No Limit Hold'em - 9 max on Full Tilt Poker | TheHandConverter.com: Powered by DeucesCracked.com
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

MP1: $2.24
Hero (MP2): $2.02
CO: $1.92
BTN: $0.80
SB: $2.37
BB: $2.17
UTG: $4.08
UTG+1: $1.97
UTG+2: $2.00

Pre Flop: ($0.03) Hero is MP2 with Ks Qh
4 folds, Hero raises to $0.08, 1 fold, BTN calls $0.08, 2 folds

The villian is 26/0 over 31 hands and I don't have much of a read beyond that. After calling my raise, I put his range at 22+, KJ+, AT+, JT+

Flop: ($0.19) 5h 4h Kd (2 players)
Hero bets $0.14, BTN calls $0.14

I don't think that he is continuing with just a flush draw here, so I adjusted his range to 44, 55, 99+, KJ, KQ

Turn: ($0.47) 5s (2 players)
Hero bets $0.34, BTN calls $0.34

I bet the turn for value because the 5s misses most of his range. I think he will continue with his whole range.

River: ($1.15) 7h (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $0.24 all in

The 3rd heart hits, but I think that he is playing mostly pocket pairs. The only flush in the range I put him on is KhJh. So: 44, 55, KQ, KhJh
Although, he only has .24 left in his stack, so he might have just tossed it in with his entire range from the Turn.

Regardless of the accuracy, is this how you guys think about ranges during actual play? I presume that kind of proficiency will just come with way more practice, which I will continue. But I am not sure how to apply it in a less-than nebulous fashion right now.

I think that part of the problem is that each type of player has a completely different starting range and way of playing post-flop. Should I focus only on, say, TAG players until I gain some intuition, and then add different types?

Thanks again!

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daven

08-24-2010, 06:16 AM

#2 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Aug 2007

Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up

Posts: 5,805

his range is wider pre (add a bunch of Axs and suited connectors/gaps), his range is wider than you predict after he calls the flop. If you don't think he's calling draws then your flop bet sucks. But he is calling draws, all sorts of weird gutshots, oesds, flush draws etc. Now shove turn for value - you need to think about stack sizes.

don't raise with the straight flush bro, nobody ever gonna call that shit
allin, reload, repeat

please read: http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/

rpm

08-24-2010, 07:33 AM

#3 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2009

Location: learnin'

Posts: 2,039

hi. if you haven't already, i recommend searching for the following threads:

"what's a range, daddy?" by XTR (i think), illustrates the thought process and deductive logic which helps us create ranges.

"put your opponent on a goddamn range" by spoonitnow, covers essentially the same stuff as XTR's post as best i remember, but it always helps to hear things explained in different styles.

if you study these and attempt to emulate the style of logic they describe, shit comes together with practice. or so i'm told.

good luck, yo

fingerflinger

08-25-2010, 01:04 AM

#4 (permalink)

High Card

Join Date: Dec 2009

Posts: 12

Thanks guys, I will spend more time with those articles. Daven, what is a good starting point for initial ranges pre-flop? I used the 26% from PokerStove and saw that the villain was calling about 11% of the PFRs, so I limited that initial range further. That's why I removed Axs and such.

fingerflinger

08-25-2010, 04:12 AM

#5 (permalink)

High Card

Join Date: Dec 2009

Posts: 12

Okay here's an attempt at another one:

The villain is 44/15 over 27 hands.

Full Tilt Poker $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em - 8 players -
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

BB: $2.00
UTG: $1.96
UTG+1: $2.44
MP1: $3.27
MP2: $0.89
Hero (CO): $2.75
BTN: $1.27
SB: $3.38

Pre Flop: ($0.03) Hero is CO with Ad As
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $0.20, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.60, 3 folds, UTG+1 calls $0.40

He opened for 10bb first in, so I think he has a premium hand. He did the same thing earlier and showed down QQ. Range here would be [TT+, AQ+, KQ]

Flop: ($1.23) 6c 4d Js (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $1.23, UTG+1 raises to $1.84 all in, Hero calls $0.61

I think that he is check-raising with a set of Jacks or big overpair, so I eliminate AQ, KQ and AK, leaving [JJ+]

He has 3 possible combinations of JJ, 6 each of KK and QQ and 1 AA. So I am ahead 12/16, behind 3/16 and even with 1/16.

I'll try one more here.

Villain is 41/1 over 133 hands. Fit/fold.

Full Tilt Poker $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em - 7 players
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

SB: $1.63
BB: $1.40
UTG: $2.01
UTG+1: $0.89
MP: $1.38
Hero (CO): $1.97
BTN: $2.32

Pre Flop: ($0.03) Hero is CO with Qh Ac
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.02, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.10, 3 folds, UTG+1 calls $0.08

He calls 44% of PFR, so he has a really wide range going to the flop. I leave out [AA-QQ, AQ+] because I think that he would raise those hands. Therefore: [22-JJ, A4s-AJ, Broadway 8s+, 97+, 54+]

Flop: ($0.23) 3c Js As (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $0.18, UTG+1 calls $0.18

He check calls, so I think that means probably no set? I think he is folding his non-set pocket pairs up to 77. Could be chasing the flush/straight draws with his broadways or connectors. I also think he folds his Axs up to AT. [33, 88-JJ, KQ, Qs8s+,Ks8s+, 5s3s+, 5s4s+, AT, AJ]

Turn: ($0.59) 3d (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $0.40, UTG+1 calls $0.40

He check calls again, so I think that he has: a set(but why wouldn't he shove here?), 2Pair/TPair, or a strong draw. [33, JJ, AJ, AT, KsQs, KsTs, QsTs]

I now think that I should have made my bet larger to push him all-in on this street.

River: ($1.39) 9c (2 players)
UTG+1 bets $0.21 all in, Hero calls $0.21

The 9c doesn't complete any hands, so I think that he has [33, JJ, AJ,AT]

There is 1 combo for 33, 3 for JJ, 9 for AJ, 12 for AT. I beat 21/25, lose to 4/25.

I welcome the inevitable destruction of my logic.

spoonitnow

08-25-2010, 05:10 AM

#6 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: IRC Chat Room

Posts: 5,406

Keep up the work, but one thing. People will generally 3-bet JJ preflop before they will 3-bet AQ.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ripptyde

I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.

Rule # 1: don't ask questions

Rule # 2: don't ask questions

I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.

NightGizmo

08-25-2010, 05:35 AM

#7 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: May 2010

Posts: 268

For the second hand -- if he's only raising 1% of his hands, that's basically KK+. I'd keep AQ/AK/QQ in his range until you see him raise something besides that range (or until his PFR% goes up).

Also, you should not eliminate so many of the Ax hands from his range. Lots of villains have a hard time letting go of paired aces. Especially on the flop -- keep in lots of those hands. Plus, he could have A3 on the flop, which would definitely continue to a bet.

Good job, though. I'm also trying to improve my hand-reading/ranges skills, and this looks like top-notch work.

fingerflinger

08-25-2010, 11:31 AM

#8 (permalink)

High Card

Join Date: Dec 2009

Posts: 12

To be clear, in the second hand when I said "I think he would raise these hands", I was referring to his opening range, not a 3-bet. But what do you think his lead-in range might look like versus his check-3 bet range?

Barring a few exceptions, I find c/r preflop to be an uncommon move at 2NL, especially for a 41/1 player. I think he's always leading in with QQ+ and AQ+, but might limp 99-JJ and then decide to 3-bet when the pot is raised. This... isn't based on much more than a "feeling".

EDIT: Formatting

NightGizmo

08-25-2010, 02:39 PM

#9 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: May 2010

Posts: 268

PFR% includes any type of raising, even 3betting and 4betting. So if he has a 1% PFR, then he's probably only raising KK+ preflop, either as an open raise or limp/3bet. That means he's probably limping/calling QQ and AQ+. And he's definitely not 3betting 99-JJ.

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