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5NL FR QQ in 3bet pot

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  1. #1
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    Default 5NL FR QQ in 3bet pot

    Hello everybody.

    This hand was dicussed alitlle in IRC earlier today and i was advised to post this hand.

    opinion/advice please


    PokerStars - $0.05 NL - Holdem - 7 players

    SB: $12.56
    BB: $3.00
    UTG: $5.35
    UTG+1: $2.00
    MP: $5.00
    CO: $2.62
    Hero (BTN): $5.08

    SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.05

    Pre Flop: (pot: $0.07) Hero has Q Q

    fold, fold, MP raises to $0.20, fold, Hero raises to $0.45, fold, fold, MP calls $0.25

    Flop: ($0.97, 2 players) 2 6 2
    MP checks, Hero bets $0.55, MP calls $0.55

    Turn: ($2.07, 2 players) A
    MP checks, Hero checks

    River: ($2.07, 2 players) 7
    MP bets $1.50,

    Villan stats.
    vpip 20 pfr 18 fold to 3bet 100 2/2

    PREFLOP.
    The Pre flop 3bet should have been bigger to not give villan odds to call.60 cent was adivised.

    Villain range for calling my small 3bet (i think).
    QQ-22,A9s+,KsQs,KsJs,KsTs,QsJs,QsTs,JsTs,ATo+,KTo+,QT o+,JTo
    We have 74% equity vs this range.

    FLOP
    I cbet this flop to get value from the flushdraws and pairs villan might call with.
    I was advised to bet bigger if i thought villan would call with flushdraws.Would 75% of the pot be a good size?

    TRUN
    On the turn i thought villan would have alot Aces in his range so i checked back trying to get to showdown but looking at it now i dont think he has.only the Ax of spades would call my flop bet i think and thats only 5 combos (AKs AQs AJs ATs A9s)

    Villans range for calling a turn bet.
    A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,AJo+
    We have 67% equity vs this range.

    I was told if we have 50% equity vs villans turn calling range we can make a bet.We have 67% equity so easy bet.
    Villan has a 1 in 5 chance of hitting his draw on the river (i think) but im not sure what size bet villan would call.Im thinking maybe close to pot if i thnik villan would call?

    RIVER.
    I think river is a fold unless ive seen villan bluff at three to a flush board and i dont see any hand we beat that bets the river.

    Have i gave a close to correct range for villan throuhout the hand??
  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by dirtyden View Post
    Villan has a 1 in 5 chance of hitting his draw on the river (i think) but im not sure what size bet villan would call.Im thinking maybe close to pot if i thnik villan would call?

    RIVER.
    I think river is a fold unless ive seen villan bluff at three to a flush board and i dont see any hand we beat that bets the river.
    1 in 5 is about right for a flush draw with one card to come (9 out of 46 remaining cards complete the flush = just under 20%; although, I guess it would technically be 44 cards, since he would have to hold 2 spades and you have none. Still, that only makes it just over 20%. That's a long way of saying you're right.).

    Is there a chance villain would bet the river with JJ-88 for thin value after you check through the turn (which suggests you probably don't have an A)? Or would he just check those hands for an attempt at showdown value? [Edited to clarify my question.]
    Last edited by Malbrack; 03-05-2013 at 06:57 PM.
  3. #3
    griffey24's Avatar
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    I don't know if this is a FR thing, but 3b size preflop seems small to me. I would make it at least 0.50 but likely 0.6.

    Flop cbet size is small as well, especially on this particular board where all pairs will have a hard time folding.

    Since you bet small pre and on flop I think villain has more Ax in his range than normal, so I don't hate the turn check back. Typically it's good to bet this turn because we would bet our bluffs, and ten check back river if you don't think you'll get much more value.

    As played, it's really a feel type spot. Are you betting Ax on the turn? If so, then this is the top of your checking back range.
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  4. #4
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    Yes i would bet any Ax on the turn.

    Given i would bet Ax on the turn villan could bet this river JJ-88.
  5. #5
    griffey24's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtyden View Post
    Yes i would bet any Ax on the turn.

    Given i would bet Ax on the turn villan could bet this river JJ-88.
    No I don't think so. Given that you would bet any Ax on the turn, your hand looks like QQ/KK.

    What would 88-JJ be hoping to get value from?

    This is definitely a low pair turning itself into a bluff (not value), or Ax. I don't even expect many flushes here, most flushes will raise flop.

    I'm expecting to see AJ or something here if it's for value, and some nonsense 55 or some oop float with QJs or something as a bluff.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay-Z
    I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
    I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
  6. #6
    Finn's Avatar
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    Preflop:
    As you said, if you 3bet, bet bigger - 3x to 0,60$

    Flop
    Because of flush draws I tend to bet up to 75%. Think a 20/18 would mostly call with a FD and PP. On a rainbow board I would bet half pot.

    Turn
    I would bet about 50-60% because our equity should be ok and if he has an A I think he calls and checks river so we could check back

    River
    If we get to the river as said I would check back. If he bets 1/3 or more I´m only calling if I have some history saying he could be bluffing etc.
  7. #7
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    Thanks for the awesome advice guys.

    Ive never really thought about how my range looks from villans prespective.
  8. #8
    River is surely a snap call. You are played this hand as if you are scared of the ace. Any half-decent villain will surely notice this and bet out on any river with ATC. I would call this and expect to see villain with a lot of pairs that he tried to go set-mining with.

    I think checking the turn only makes sense if you are planning to call a bluff on the river.
    Last edited by HarryHatless; 03-07-2013 at 03:45 PM.
  9. #9
    surviva316's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtyden View Post
    Ive never really thought about how my range looks from villans prespective.
    Well, it's been talked about in a bit of a general sense in this thread. How your range is perceived is dependent on what your range is (obviously). Is your range for 3b'ing preflop just AK/QQ+? If so, then villain would have to be really bad to call a turn bet here.

    Your range SHOULD be much wider than that given that you're two seats to the left of a player who raises a lot preflop. You should be 3b'ing him in position a fair amount, in which case you would have a ton of flush draws and such in your turn betting range, in which case you should be licking your chops at the chance to balance your range with a relatively strong value hand, knowing that this is a very obvious bluffing card and he's gonna continue with split pairs without thinking much about it.

    Again, though, that's only the correct move if your playing your preflop range aggressively, though.

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