No theme werewolf gameplay thread

[wufwugy]

Except the themeing of ur mom

The Living

Baudib
Gabe
MMM
JKDS
Dhuber
Ong
BID
Keith
Hoops
Rillz
Keybored
Luco
Daven

The Dead

A crazy, themed game (or ur mam)

The Village

9 villagers
4 wolves
4 ghost angels! These do not count towards living totals, but the village cannot lose while any of the ghost angels remain. On Night 1, the first lynched player chooses 4 players to protect. On Night 2, he and the rest of the dead thread choose 4 players to protect. On Night 3, same thing. This goes on as long as the game does, but every successful protect can only work once. This means that if on a night, one of the four protect targets works and saves the player from nom, the next night, there are only 3 ghost angels left, so only 3 targets can be chosen on subsequent nights. The goes on until there are a total of 4 successful saves.

If there are no successful saves by the time enough players are dead to normally end the game, 2 ghost angels will be exchanged for one dead player to be revived and that night's nom will be auto-blocked. This can happen two nights in a row if need be, but it will require all 4 ghost angels. If there is just 1 ghost angel left, I will use mod discretion to determine if it is enough to block a nom and revive a dead player. I will moderate the ghost angel power based on how its perceived to affect the game. Like if it appears to be crushing the wolves, I'll reduce its power but if the village is getting crushed I will use its power. The dead thread can't choose to use the exchange power, only I choose when it's appropriate. I will only use it when it is fair for all living players. At Day 5 and beyond, the ghost angel should be completely done

If anybody attempts to exploit this by doing something like try to tell the village who they'll protect at night just before they get lynched, I will strip the power away. Put simply, don't talk about protect targets. They're for the dead thread to decide

I know this all might be a little complicated. Its purpose is that because there are a huge number of wolves (9v4 is super wolf heavy), things need to happen in order to let at least Day 4 happen before the end of the game. Adding living specials is not a good option since they result in more deaths (vig) or known villagers (seer/angel) and ultimately end the game earlier. In this format, it is probably extra hard for the village since they don't have any special powers to help find the wolves (like seer), so they have to get the job done through lynches, but this adds a gameplay element for the dead thread, as well as what I think is a major pro-village thing in that one or two confirmed villagers can come out of the dead thread and help the village. Obviously the dead thread will be completely spoiler free

If this format doesn't work, I'm sorry. It's experimental for sure. I'm trying to make a game that can't be cinched with a massclaim and can't end too early, and gives both teams a fighting chance


Day 1 starts now and ends sometime on Monday. With 13 players, it's 7 to lynch!

[OngBonga]

Interesting.

I've thought deeply about this for at least a minute and optimal play by far is a lynch baudib.

[MadMojoMonkey]

So we're not using the mod bot, then?

[Hoopy]

This is going to be crazy.

[wufwugy]

So we're not using the mod bot, then?

only the mom bot

[OngBonga]

Ok I've thought about this for a little longer and I think claiming now is my best play.

I'm the vig.

[baudib]

Hi
I haven't read my role pm or roles yet but I'm sure I'm the seer?

[baudib]

Ok I've thought about this for a little longer and I think claiming now is my best play.

I'm the vig.

wtf that was my idea

[baudib]

Interesting.

I've thought deeply about this for at least a minute and optimal play by far is a lynch baudib.

nice carry over from signup thread.

[baudib]

ok I looked. Villager.

I'm going to state openly that I haven't read these crazy Wuf rules for this game so I'll let Keith and Ong and others sort it out. I'm poasting from work now but will crank it up tomorrow.

[baudib]

by crank it up I obviously mean contributing 80% of the posts in the thread instead of like 50%

[baudib]

Wuf, I actually love the idea of giving the dead thread something to do, instead of MMQB it like us cunts in the Gold Rush thread.

[baudib]

It's like after I spew hard and get lynched D1, I can still help the village. When you're dead your view of the game changes I think, and new revelations come clearer when you're not fighting to stay alive.

[OngBonga]

Jesus fuck will you shut up already.

[baudib]

Ong are you sure you're not Ciggie Butt?

[JKDS]

lynch baudib

[JKDS]

If anybody attempts to exploit this by doing something like try to tell the village who they'll protect at night just before they get lynched, I will strip the power away. Put simply, don't talk about protect targets. They're for the dead thread to decide

I dont fully understand all this ghost angel new fangled hiphop. But it seems good, so lets not do the above.

[baudib]

Yay I'm a legit bandwagon.

Basically JKDS, it means that the dead thread gets to be the angel and they get to vote on who gets protected each night -- 4 players.

I think this is gonna be a nightmare for Wuf but should be interesting for the deaders

[baudib]

OK I read it again. Actually it seems even more complicated than that.

Wuf can you clarify this a bit? What it actually seems like is that the dead thread protect vote mirrors the living thread lynch votes.

BUT

they will know the identity of dead wolves right? So the dead villagers know who dead wolves are? So it's sort of a game of chicken if the dead thread is evenly populated with wolves and villagers?

[baudib]

^^ that'd be pretty sick. like wolves could have a whole leveling strategy, it'd be kind of crazy.

[wufwugy]

Wuf can you clarify this a bit? What it actually seems like is that the dead thread protect vote mirrors the living thread lynch votes.

And the noms.

they will know the identity of dead wolves right? So the dead villagers know who dead wolves are? So it's sort of a game of chicken if the dead thread is evenly populated with wolves and villagers?

The dead thread can do whatever they want regardless of their roles. They get to choose the protect targets and if I designate an exchange instead (which I may or may not declare will happen ITT before it happens, we'll see) then they get to vote on which dead player revives. The same applies to dead wolves. If dead wolves feel like getting tricky, more power to them. If they feel like saying nothing, more power to them

[baudib]

And the noms.



The dead thread can do whatever they want regardless of their roles. They get to choose the protect targets and if I designate an exchange instead (which I may or may not declare will happen ITT before it happens, we'll see) then they get to vote on which dead player revives. The same applies to dead wolves. If dead wolves feel like getting tricky, more power to them. If they feel like saying nothing, more power to them

sick game, i think. i almost wanna die now

[baudib]

The only person I really want to lynch is Daven obviously

[baudib]

I'm pretty sure I have never gone a game day without getting a vote.

[BankItDrew]

I'm a drunk vanilla. Brb in 24 hrs

[dhubermex]

So we're not using the mod bot, then?

I put in a request to our development team and am hopeful they will get back to me some time next week on whether this will be possible. From the little feedback that has been posted on the idea, how much a vote-counting bot will add (or perhaps even take away) from the awesome content we typically have in our WW matches.

With that addressed, I'm looking forward to this format to see how it turns out. I'm already suspicious of one poster, but will keep that to myself for now as it's pretty much a crapshoot so far unless someone can infer valuable info from baudib's posts.

[baudib]

So if I am reading this correctly, it's not a total disaster if we lose a couple of villagers the first few days. Obviously it's not +EV to lynch a villager but let's say we mislynch D1, wolves get NK that has ~50% of being blocked, and realistically much higher than that if we can make reasonable reads.

let's say
D1 -- mislynch
N1 -- 50% chance of NK
D2 -- we have 1 or 2 villagers dead
N2 -- Roles are known (presumably?), the dead village voting bloc has enormous control.

I assume the wolf is not going to give up any information when he is outnumbered 2-1. How are ties settled in the dead thread?

[baudib]

NO WAIT I did that wrong. bad math.

we only have a 4/12 shot of saving a villager barring good read. But still it's interesting.

I was doing a bit of math and it comes out to slightly -EV on a random lynch/random save.

HOWEVER

The interesting part comes in where the wolves have to play cat and mouse with the dead thread.

It FORCES the wolves into a suboptimal nightkill because they will have to try to avoid the ghost angel!

So I think this format actually rewards good play and just play super aggro as a village and we'll have more of the better players around late in the game.

LOL GG WOLVES

[OngBonga]

From 50% to 4/12.

From a wolf midset to OH SHIT town mindset.

Got one. Oh look I'm already voting for him.

[OngBonga]

Ok so let's assume a villager dies today. That means there's 12 left, 4 vs 8. The one villager in the dead thread will protect 4 from 12 unknown people, so a 33% shot at saving. But baudib first said 50%, which shows in his mind he's thinking that the one villager saves 4 people from 8. His 50% is consistent with a wolf not thinking it through clearly enough. I don't see how a villager gets to 50%, but I can see how a wolf does.
I think baudib slipped there with his numbers. He's not thinking like a villager.

[Luco]

somebody please explain like im 5 jesus

[OngBonga]

LOOK HOW ACTIVE BIGRED IS

[OngBonga]

somebody please explain like im 5 jesus

Somebody make me breakfast.

[Luco]

Somebody make me breakfast.

cup of tea and a bong coming up

[OngBonga]

cup of tea and a bong coming up

Sick soulread.

[baudib]

Hi Luco!
Don't worry about it, IMO, I was playing around with the numbers and got excited at the idea that a random lynch was close to a village freeroll. We really need to get a wolf like 50% of the time (don't sue me if that's wrong, that was top of my head) for an +EV lynch.

Ong, I assume you're playing seriously now instead of fking around. I get that you want to lynch me D1 and all, but if you're being serious, it really makes me sad that you are gonna be 0-for-3 on reading me. Like, I think you would have learned by now that my spazzy openings are role-neutral at worst and actually probably villagery for me.

However, I've been able to tone-read you pretty instantly off about 4-5 posts before, and tbh, this feels a bit agenda-driven here. I don't want to overreact and I suppose you wanting to come hard after me for lols could be role-neutral for you, too, but we'll see...

[Keith]

Am i reading the rules correctly in that we have to get a couple of villagers dead at the start rather than wolves otherwise the wolves would be controlling who is protected and who is eaten and wolves could make some sacrifices in order to get control of the ghost angels in the hopes that the remaining wolves can survive to the endgame. could they preplan who is protected and ensure that the ghost angels get a succesful block and reduce their numbers so that there is no confirmed villager revived in the endgame.

also how is there no ghost angel on night 5 if there are no succesful blocks, does that mean all 4 convert to 2 revived villagers or

[baudib]

Keith, I know where you're coming from because this went through my mind too, but obviously it's always going to be better to lynch a wolf than not.

I think the thing to take away is that D1, the cost of a mislynch is less than normal. If we mislynch, we have a shot at blocking the wolves' kill. If we get a wolf, then obviously the wolf alone in the dead thread would never stop the wolves' kill.

[baudib]

MEh, I sorta hate talking about new game mechanics so much. I realize it's inevitable and there's not much else to talk about when like 6 people have checked in.

But new wrinkles to the game makes it easy for wolves to post early on, and it's something that ridiculously made me want to clear Keith before just because I agreed with what he was saying.

[baudib]

and by 6 people I obviously mean 9.

yes i cannot do math

[OngBonga]

Ong, I assume you're playing seriously now instead of fking around. I get that you want to lynch me D1 and all, but if you're being serious, it really makes me sad that you are gonna be 0-for-3 on reading me. Like, I think you would have learned by now that my spazzy openings are role-neutral at worst and actually probably villagery for me.

However, I've been able to tone-read you pretty instantly off about 4-5 posts before, and tbh, this feels a bit agenda-driven here. I don't want to overreact and I suppose you wanting to come hard after me for lols could be role-neutral for you, too, but we'll see...

Spazzy opening might well be role nautral or even villager tells with you. I've seen you wolf once and that was your first game. Spazzy opening are not my concern. I'm conrcerned about your numbers, and where that comes from.

Although come to think of it I seem to recall you doing this is the last non-anon game. Everything you posted seemed to come from a wolf midset, not villager. And you were a pissing villager. So I'm not gonna be hugely surprised if I'm wrong. But your numbers stink.

And I like how you point your finger at me the instant I point mine at you. That's not your usual reaction, you're usually pretty sharp in correctly towning me while I shout at you. But not here. Noted.

[OngBonga]

Pretty sure that a wolf dying today and taking control of the dead thread is +ev for the village. All it would mean is they have a clean kill tonight. But seeing as they have a 66% chance of a kill even if a villager dies today, then it's clearly in our interests to lynch a wolf today if possible.

[baudib]

yes it's always better to lynch a wolf LDFO!

[baudib]

And I like how you point your finger at me the instant I point mine at you. That's not your usual reaction, you're usually pretty sharp in correctly towning me while I shout at you. But not here. Noted.

Look I'm 100% certain that you just want to lynch me for lols like you said in the dead thread. Ain't gonna happen because I'm pure as pure and I'm going to village the fk out of this whole game. I'm so villa it hurts your mom.

And I'm not pointing a finger at you. I'm noting your tone. We've played 2 games before as V/V. First one you were subdued Ong, which made me snap-read you as seer.

Anon game, you were relaxed, jovial engaged Ong, which made me snap-read you as villa. Keep in mind how early I got modkilled! And I knew you were like 0% wolf in that spot already.

This is a different Ong. I'm not sure what that means. It really may be that you just want to get me lynched but there hasn't been enough interaction with other people yet for me to tell.

[OngBonga]

My opening vote is absolutely because lulz. If you got lynched today the waa waa would be fantastic. But notice I haven't removed my vote after getting serious. That's because you're the only person to do anything wolfy so far imo.

Without wuf this easily has the potential to just become an ong-baudib shitfest. So I'm gonna wind my neck in for now at least until other people have checked in.

[MadMojoMonkey]

I'm not sure I like ong's argument against baud's bad numbers - merely because baud corrected them himself before anyone else pointed out his mistake.

If it was a wolf mistake, then sure, the wolf thread could have corrected baud... but then... If baud's argument is that he's bad at numbers, then it's probably better to not correct himself and just play the bad-math card when it comes up.

That seems to have gone unnoticed in ong's analysis of the bad number-thinking of baud.

[OngBonga]

It didn't go unnoitced. I realise he corrected himself. That doesn't change the reason I was alarmed at his comment. He comes up with 50% chance of a save at night. That assumes that the dead thread know who the villagers are. Perhaps baudib knows who the villagers are and is stuck in that frame of mind. I don't see how else he gets to 50%. The correct figure is 75% because we probably lose a villager, then 4 from 12 unknowns. 50% is a figure if you're thinking 4 protectss from 8. Why has he got 4 from 8 in his head? And why did he realise his numbers was bad? Remember last game where gabe says he learned how to spell rapport? That was around ten minutes after his post. Around as long as it takes to go from main thread to den chit chat and back to main thread.

My problem is not that he corrected himself. My problem is baudib was making what I considered pov slips a couple of games back to the point I was fistpumping his lynch, and he turned out to be a villager. So I'm not sure if I have as much faith in pov slips as I used to. But I still find it compelling, certainly more so than anything else so far.

[OngBonga]

lol check out my bad maths.

4 from 12 is fucking 66%.

[OngBonga]

33%

jfc I just hit a bong, that's my excuse.

[OngBonga]

I suppose I can see how easy it is for a villager to spazz with numbers.

[baudib]

MMM = pretty much a villager for his analysis

I can't believe this is even gonna be a thing but: I got excited thinking that we had a 50-50 shot at blocking the night kill because we could protect up to 4 villagers...I was thinking of the village population, not wolves...it actually is possible to protect half the village but obviously we'd have to get the right ones.

[wufwugy]

Am i reading the rules correctly in that we have to get a couple of villagers dead at the start rather than wolves otherwise the wolves would be controlling who is protected and who is eaten and wolves could make some sacrifices in order to get control of the ghost angels in the hopes that the remaining wolves can survive to the endgame. could they preplan who is protected and ensure that the ghost angels get a succesful block and reduce their numbers so that there is no confirmed villager revived in the endgame.

also how is there no ghost angel on night 5 if there are no succesful blocks, does that mean all 4 convert to 2 revived villagers or

Wolves certainly could attempt to dominate the dead thread, but there is no wasting of ghost angels. They only go away one at a time when saves are successful or two at a time if I decide a dead villager will be revived and nom auto-blocked.

I said earlier that two revivals max could be made, but I'm changing that now. There will only be one revival total. It will take two ghost angels to use unless there is only one ghost angel left. Then it will take up that remaining ghost angel. I also take back that the village can't lose while there are ghost angels left. What it is is that the village can't lose while there has not been one revival. If there has been one revival yet one or two ghost angels remain, the village can lose

I have to figure some of this out as we go too, and I see that two revivals is just way too strong. One revival achieves the purpose I wanted for the power in the first place

[wufwugy]

How are ties settled in the dead thread?

Same as here. Majority vote wins or first to a tie wins. Here that means they die, in the dead thread that means they are either protect targets or the revived villager

[Hoopy]

baudib has 23 posts already, wow.

I don't want to lynch him today because a) activity and b) D1 modkill last game.

[Hoopy]

I could go for a BID lynch to remind him he's no longer god.

Or Keybored because he hasn't received the customary D1 newb lynch yet.

[Luco]

with no specials to worry about surely we should snick off a lurker

[MadMojoMonkey]

baudib has posted the most, so obv the easiest target. I'm slanting village on him, though for a couple of reasons:
He's actually saying something in his posts... at least some of them.
He seems to be dropping a lot of half-baked posts that he is immediately revising. I assume a wolf would be a bit more self-critical before submitting the post.
Especially IF they keep going back to the wolf thread and getting reminded that they're screwing up again... Would baud make that mistake over and over? I don't think so.

Ong has dropped the 2nd most posts, but as ever, Ong is a mystery to me in the early game. I defended his poo-slinging in my first game, thinking he was just instigating - he turned out to be a wolf. So live and learn.

If pressed to guess, I would assume that the huge dialogue between Ong and baud puts them on the same team more often than not... I'm slanting vil for baud, so I'm slanting vil for Ong.

Kieth has his head in the game, so I'm leaning toward vil on him, too.

Pretty much the same goes for JKDS, except he always comes across as wolfy to me, so yeah.
I'm saying his game seems very balanced to me, and I have no read.

***
BID and huber have each only dropped 1 post, and it was not a game post (dhuber clarified the lack of mod-bot, but it's not an in-game post). Both of these posts are in the early part of day 1, so the lack of in-game content is to be expected.

I agree with Luco (#56) , but someone was going to say it, so it's kind of a read-proof post.

***
There are 4 people who have yet to post:
Gabe
Rillz
Keybored
Daven

I doubt they're all wolves.

Given that list and players' reputations, no one's getting on a gabe wagon on day 1... same for daven... probably same for rilla.... I don't know keybored, so that seems the best lynch at this time.


lynch keybored

[Keith]

I can't help thinking that baud and ong are both wolves trying to get lynched and dominate the dead thread and control the angel protects. look at their reactions, how can wolves controlling the angel be +ev for the village. ong and baud have to die starting tomorrow where they can't control the dead thread. they usually die early and it looks like they are going out of their way to ensure it happens at the start.

LOL Keith.

I give you a village lean for this tbh.

[OngBonga]

keith isn't this fucking stupid.

how can wolves controlling the angel be +ev for the village.

Because a wolf dies in the process of it happening. If a wolf dies and controls the dead thread, then the night kill will go through. But that cost them a wolf. It's +ev because the alternative is we lynch a villager and have a 33% chance of blocking a kill.

The idea is to kill lynch the wolves keith, not block their kills.

[OngBonga]

keith, legitimate question...

Are you a villager?

[baudib]

MMM:
Keith's early game posts are generally null, I think it's a mistake to try to read anything off it, as I did a couple games ago.

The game is fairly null in general though. You're really my only lean either way right now, and you're certainly a villager IMO.

with no specials to worry about surely we should snick off a lurker

I suppose we could debate the merits of knocking off an AFKer. With the thread feeling null-to-villagerish, we probably stand a better-than-random chance of finding a wolf among the them.

I actually think I'm already on the best choice. Obviously it was a random vote since he hasn't posted yet, but I think Daven's the best lynch of the non-posters:

-- Gabe and Rilla are never getting lynched on D1
-- I'd agree with MMM about Keybored, but I just couldn't do it to the guy after what happened last game.

[JKDS]

rescind baudib

@mmm: No offense to keybored, but I'm about to say something offensive to keybored, he's a bad choice to stick in the dead thread day1. If hes a villager, theres no guarantee he wont flip out or afk and not give us our saves. Also, hes newer and less likely to accurately predict wolf kills.

I dont like how others havent thought about this, and wanted to hop on this wagon.

[JKDS]

Why lynch daven? He said he'd be afk for 50 hours before the game even started. He'd be unable to even use his saves if he flipped vil.

[baudib]

I missed that part JKDS. I agree with you on Keybored, too.

rescind Daven

[baudib]

oh geeze WTF

It looks like somehow I edited a really long post of Keith's when I was trying to reply with/quote on it up there!

[baudib]

ok so I was trying to quote part of Keith's long post and snipped out most of it, made a quick reply and hit send...it didn't show up when i was scrolling back and some new posts appeared...I looked back and apparently I hit "Edit post" on his post instead of "reply with quote"?

i guess because i have mod powers now, i didn't even realize i could do that!

[baudib]

haha I'M THE WORST EVER

[OngBonga]

I dont like how others havent thought about this, and wanted to hop on this wagon.

I thought about this as soon as luco hinted we should lynch a lurker, but I was gonna wait for a wagon to develop before bringing it up.

It's unlike you to shoot your load prematurely.

[MadMojoMonkey]

@JKDS: Solid.

rescind keybored

@baudib: modkilled 2 games in a row? classic.
[non-game comment]
From one mod to another, I empathize with you on that mistake. I've done it plenty of times and didn't notice until I was going to click submit. I haven't actually edited anyone's post yet (I hope), but I've been damn close before.

[dhubermex]

My third game and I've finally rolled vanilla.

I really don't know what to make of baudib's posts. Of course some come off as wolfy, but they'd have to with as much as there is to read already. I'm not for a baudib lynch or wagon at this time. Post #58 is obv boo-hiss (glad he knows how to use that feature now so he can pwn spammers in his forums tho) and up to mod-wuf what to do about that.

I believe MMM is a village lean. I'm crossing my fingers Luco is in the Village camp again this game, because if he isn't we're in deep crap. I'm also leaning villager on Ong and have no reads on the others who have posted so far, so I guess I have nothing useful to contribute at this time.

I agree with MMM... would like to see posts from the four who haven't participated yet.

[gabe]

just got to the game, reading now

[gabe]

since im named after the greatest angel of all time im going to volunteer to be on the first angel council



we've been playing alot it seems so im on the lookout for the wolves being extra tricky. no one is going to be a pure wolf-fish in this lineup

[baudib]

I'm fine with whatever Wuf decides really. I think the epicness of being MK 2 games in a row is worth it for lulz.

As for the game, Huber is setting off alarm bells. Once again the early vanilla claim is extremely suspicious; last game he claimed this super early and it was super sketchy. As anon, he said, "once again, I'm vanilla." of course, in his first game, he wasn't vanilla, and he wasn't last game.

Also, him pointing fingers at me for little to no reason without actually voting is pretty damn wolfy. Huber got nabbed pretty early in his first game as wolf and I think we've gotten him again.

lynch Dhuber

[MadMojoMonkey]

just got to the game, reading now

Just read the thread before you post.

im going to volunteer to be on the first angel council

I don't know how to feel about this.

I'm sure you know that you can dead yourself in a single post if you believe this is the best play.

[wufwugy]

I tend to not modkill people for honest mistakes.

Every time I edit something, a mod is able to see it, so why not just reinstate Keith's post and be done with it?