Stars Double or Nothing Tournaments

Just came back from a break and found these on Poker Stars. They seem like a goldmine; basically 5 out of 10 players get paid; it's a flat payout structure, so it works similar to a satellite in playstyle. I cashed in an $11 tournament today and literally never saw a turn card. Does anyone else think these could be insanely profitable?

I played a load of these on Pacific a few months back, and made a nice profit. They require a different strategy to a normal payout structure SnG, but I think they are good fun. When I went back to normal SnGs afterwards though, I thought I had lost a bit of my push/fold game.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...re-t72214.html

I've never seen the Stars ones, they must be new today, as I never noticed any last night.

2 ITM out of 2 in the $22, it seems that this could be profitable but you need to adjust your game a lot

gonna load up 20 and see how many I ITM when i get back from the store

Originally Posted by Triptanes

gonna load up 20 and see how many I ITM when i get back from the store

Looking forward to it...

Lots of bad play in these.

I've never seen the Stars ones, they must be new today, as I never noticed any last night.

I saw them this morning. Be sure to turn on your filter to see 10 person S&Gs.

Just played a few of these, and the standard in them on Stars is just as bad as it was on Pacific.

I had loads of luck after the hand below to finish in the money.

PokerStars Game #20897415744: Tournament #111906977, $5.00+$0.50 Hold'em No Limit - Level V (75/150) - 2008/10/03 14:52:48 ET
Table '111906977 1' 10-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: RTWills (1585 in chips)
Seat 2: Joe_Coo (875 in chips)
Seat 3: Hero (10 in chips)
Seat 4: dbcooper18 (1390 in chips)
Seat 5: Skinem (2040 in chips)
Seat 6: selkies111 (150 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 7: CraisyWon (3325 in chips)
Seat 8: mickael9701 (1260 in chips)
Seat 9: KK solid KK (2195 in chips)
Seat 10: hish22 (2170 in chips)
RTWills: posts the ante 15
Joe_Coo: posts the ante 15
Hero: posts the ante 10 and is all-in
dbcooper18: posts the ante 15
Skinem: posts the ante 15
selkies111: posts the ante 15
CraisyWon: posts the ante 15
mickael9701: posts the ante 15
KK solid KK: posts the ante 15
hish22: posts the ante 15
Skinem: posts small blind 75
selkies111: posts big blind 135 and is all-in
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero [4d 9d]
CraisyWon: folds
mickael9701: folds
KK solid KK: folds
hish22: folds
RTWills: folds
Joe_Coo: folds
dbcooper18: folds
Skinem: folds
Uncalled bet (60) returned to selkies111
*** FLOP *** [5h 9c 5s]
*** TURN *** [5h 9c 5s] [Qc]
*** RIVER *** [5h 9c 5s Qc] [4c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
selkies111: shows [As 2s] (a pair of Fives)
selkies111 collected 195 from side pot
Hero: shows [4d 9d] (two pair, Nines and Fives)
Hero collected 100 from main pot

These are extremely easy and dumb. You should all be able to make much more money playing real SnGs/turbos.

Originally Posted by Illfavor

These are extremely easy and dumb. You should all be able to make much more money playing real SnGs/turbos.

I sort of agree with this. While they are fun to play every now and again, I don't think you should let them take over.

Even if you cash in 7 out of 10 of these, a couple of wins and a couple of second places in a normal payout structure 9-man SnG would show more profit, over 10 games.

i agree its pretty dumb playing all this double or nothing tournaments,and i gotta admit,i just load 20 of this and got about 12-13 wins.which is pretty bad,i think.

on adjusting our play,the bubble part is pretty interesting,shoving KK with 5 limpers isnt a good idea,with this people calling you with anything,and you get knocked out.

i think playing this once in a while,should be ok.ICM effect is pretty different.

I'm going to check these out, Thanks for the info.

Wish they would make them super turbo or something...

They fixed the rake.

I gotta say, I REALLY don't like these things. I've played in 3 and I've cashed in all 3 but it's SO tedious. I don't know about anyone else, but I'm probably not gonna play too many of these. Maybe on occasion if my roll is low or something but definitely not gonna be the bread and butter.

I've noticed Sharkscope shows these as much easier (fishier) tables than the regulars. On one hand that sounds great, but honestly it's tough for me to really get into the idea of playing a really solid game and only doubling my buy-in (minus rake).

Hey new to the site. I just created a fresh account on Pokerstars to be able to judge just how profitable these tables are. The name is bpashs if you want to sharkscope it and follow my progress....

Started with 5 dollars on the account and am now up to 500 in a matter of 5 days. Play 20 D or N on average but occassionally go over to the 104 table where the games tighter but seems easier....

If I can reach 15K before Dec. I'll let you guys know who I am

Originally Posted by bpashs

Hey new to the site. I just created a fresh account on Pokerstars to be able to judge just how profitable these tables are. The name is bpashs if you want to sharkscope it and follow my progress....

Started with 5 dollars on the account and am now up to 500 in a matter of 5 days. Play 20 D or N on average but occassionally go over to the 104 table where the games tighter but seems easier....

If I can reach 15K before Dec. I'll let you guys know who I am

Hi and welcome to FTR, it's good to have you here.

Please please please read the article on bankroll management before you go any further. You should be playing with a minimum of 30 buyins at low levels and up to 100 at higher ones otherwise you WILL go busto, it's just a matter of time.

Well my bankroll is well above what I started with.....Im blogging my own experience in which i'm trying to find a fast way from nothing to something for poker players in terms of easy cashing. I understand bankroll management and at what levels to play. Just showing how to roll the D or N tourneys

Also as nice as it would be to just deposit 3k and play the 100 levels .....I thought it would be more interesting and realistic to start with a level on the plain of someone who may have won a freeroll or two

Originally Posted by bpashs

Well my bankroll is well above what I started with.....Im blogging my own experience in which i'm trying to find a fast way from nothing to something for poker players in terms of easy cashing. I understand bankroll management and at what levels to play. Just showing how to roll the D or N tourneys

Also as nice as it would be to just deposit 3k and play the 100 levels .....I thought it would be more interesting and realistic to start with a level on the plain of someone who may have won a freeroll or two

You are judging things on a small sample size. See you in Dec. when you tell us that you went busto. Playing the $104's on a $500 roll is suicide.

Originally Posted by Sprayed

You are judging things on a small sample size. See you in Dec. when you tell us that you went busto. Playing the $104's on a $500 roll is suicide.

it sounds like he's some undercover baller experimenting around

Originally Posted by bpashs

Well my bankroll is well above what I started with.....Im blogging my own experience in which i'm trying to find a fast way from nothing to something for poker players in terms of easy cashing. I understand bankroll management and at what levels to play. Just showing how to roll the D or N tourneys

It's great that you've increased your roll, but I guarantee that you are running hot right now. Seriously, losing $5 or $10 because you're playing under-rolled is no biggie but losing $500 is far worse. Trust us on this one and stick to playing $10 tourneys until your roll is $1000, then move up to $20, etc.

Originally Posted by bpashs

Also as nice as it would be to just deposit 3k and play the 100 levels .....

Would it? Why do you want to play against better rather than worse players?

I played one the other night, flopped a set on the very first hand and folded my way to victory!

Im sorry if I came off sounding like I had just started playing poker. Thankfully thats not the case. I created another account to do something along the lines of Jesus in that im proving with the new D or N SNG's you can make quite a nice roll from nothing.

I understand that im not coming in at a noobs skill playing level and that I play 100+ SNGs on average....I make my living playing poker. But I just wanted to show how easy money these SNGs can be if you play them right....I'll link my blog for further discussion.

Currently im at $750 in this account. I play 2-4 $20 tables at a time. And around 1 to 2 $100 or $50 D or N a day. I manage my bank roll fine enough. See ya on the felt

Originally Posted by bpashs

Im sorry if I came off sounding like I had just started playing poker. Thankfully thats not the case. I created another account to do something along the lines of Jesus in that im proving with the new D or N SNG's you can make quite a nice roll from nothing.

I understand that im not coming in at a noobs skill playing level and that I play 100+ SNGs on average....I make my living playing poker. But I just wanted to show how easy money these SNGs can be if you play them right....I'll link my blog for further discussion.

Currently im at $750 in this account. I play 2-4 $20 tables at a time. And around 1 to 2 $100 or $50 D or N a day. I manage my bank roll fine enough. See ya on the felt

Having a certain talent doesn't make it ok for someone to break basic BR fundamentals. Variance is real and it will sneak-up and bight you in the ass. If you are able to afford losing your roll then it doesn't matter what level you play.

Originally Posted by bpashs

Hey new to the site. I just created a fresh account on Pokerstars to be able to judge just how profitable these tables are. The name is bpashs if you want to sharkscope it and follow my progress....

Started with 5 dollars on the account and am now up to 500 in a matter of 5 days. Play 20 D or N on average but occassionally go over to the 104 table where the games tighter but seems easier....

If I can reach 15K before Dec. I'll let you guys know who I am

nobody thinks this is an old-timer here? you guys may wish you werent giving noobie br advice to this person once he/she reveals their identity.

This is my first post..! I have some thoughts on this topic.
Thought No 1...These double or nothing tables are a great way to rescue yourself when you are close to crashing out!
Thought No 2...bpashs is obviously a world famous poker personality!
Thought No 3...This poker personality must be a member of the Pokerstars Team!
Thought No 4...I,m gonna nail my colours to the mast and say that we are talking about Daniel Negreanu!
Thought No 5...or Moneymaker...or Hachem...
Thought No 6...think I,ll shut the **** up!

Man, you got me interested, I started with 5 bucks and have been grinding for months. Where's the blog link? Or was he saying he was going to link it up depending on results?

these tournies suck except when you have like 3 or 4 buyins as your roll

and bpashs you created another stars account or another ftr account? my bet is you are some undercover baller though, not an ftr reg

Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer

these tournies suck except when you have like 3 or 4 buyins as your roll

and bpashs you created another stars account or another ftr account? my bet is you are some undercover baller though, not an ftr reg

right on all accounts, jack. first, they suck. a bunch of rocks nitting up, doubling up, and sitting out until the bubble pops. and, the bubble takes forever. super gay, imo.

second, it may not be a balla, but he created both a stars account and FTR account, hopes to create a bunch of hype, so when he reveals himself, we all go "wow, you are cool."

Its a new FTR account and new Pokerstars account.........as to me doing this to say "wow your cool" ........ you'll just have to see....

Not saying its my first FTR account either

How much time did you invest in these would you say? Are you getting a good hourly-rate playing these?

I'm not all that experienced, but from the time I've spent in these games, it's mostly mindless play, at least at the lowest stakes. The right play is even more tight/aggressive, so it's really easy to have one of these games going on in the background, playing for a few pots and then coasting to an easy finish.

I definitely wouldn't recommend trying to make all of your money on these tables, but I think it is probably a good way for a beginner to multi-table and bring in a little extra without diverting too much attention from the one or two games that they are used to playing.

At least on PokerStars, in the $1+.15 ones, placing in just 6/10 should be easily attainable and is just above the breakeven point. With some experience, 7/10 or 8/10 isn't out of reach. 7.5/10 represents a 30% ROI, so it's not all that bad. It certainly is tedious play, though, so unless you are running like 6 of these at once, I definitely recommend playing a different style at the same time.

ive had great luck playing these. play them on both stars and cake. roi is 12% on cake out of 184 games, and not as much on stars, but still positive. my total bankroll (that includes everything ive got in cash and in the bank--not just online--is now at $4100 and it was at $2500 when i returned home from vegas sept 5.

i know im new here, but ive made close to 700 posts on twoplusttwo forums, my id there is sevencard2003 for anyone who might have seen that name before.

Here's the trimmed tourney for a recent DoN:

The Tournament Trimmer (v1.1.4w) was developed by JeffreyGB at http://www.FlopTurnRiver.com.

---Tournament Summary---
$1.10 SNG: Finished 1/10 for $2
Data for 19 hands.
You played 1 hands (5.26%)
You raised 0 times preflop (0.00%)


-----Hand 1-----
Hero's M = 50.00
PokerStars Game #21210793912: Tournament #114308217, $1.00+$0.15 Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2008/10/15 8:13:15 ET
Condensed history provided by the Tournament Trimmer (v1.1.4w) from http://www.FlopTurnRiver.com
Table '114308217 1' 10-max Seat #1 is the button
First hand, I'm on the button
Preflop: DoanDiggy dealt 3 3
5 limpers
DoanDiggy: calls 20
BB checks
Flop: 2 9 J
bet, call, fold, raise, call, call in front of me
DoanDiggy: folds

9 Q CO (M = 49.33; c+f+f+f+c+F)
2 4 MP2 (M = 49.33; f+f+c+F)
4 3 MP1 (M = 49.33; c+f+F)
3 T UTG+1 (M = 49.33; f+F)
T 3 UTG (M = 49.33; F)
A 5 BB (M = 49.33; c+c+c+f+r+c+F)
8 9 SB (M = 32.44; f+f+f+c+f+F)
8 Q BU (M = 32.11; f+c+c+c+F)
2 A CO (M = 32.11; c+f+f+F)
Q 7 MP1 (M = 32.11; c+f+F)
7 T UTG+1 (M = 32.11; c+F)
4 5 UTG (M = 32.11; F)
Q 4 BB (M = 32.11; f+c+r+f+f+c+F)
5 3 SB (M = 31.44; c+f+f+f+c+F)
2 6 BU (M = 12.73; p+f+f+f+F)
J T CO (M = 12.68; f+f+c+F)
T 8 MP1 (M = 12.64; c+c+F)
3 7 UTG (M = 13.19; F)

The Tournament Trimmer (v1.1.4w) was developed by JeffreyGB at http://www.FlopTurnRiver.com.


That's right... I never even had to contest a hand to win . (It's a good thing, too, since I never got one.)

wow, nice. How long does it take for half the field to donk out in 19 hands? about 15 mins or so?

normally its more hands and takes about 30 min or so

i hate these.
they are boring.
i would rather play old maid.
that is all.

and what's up with the guy above me's signature
"over 650 posts on 2+2 forums"

llllllllooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool????????A?! ??!?!?3/4/?24./';
df

Originally Posted by DetroitHusling101

i hate these.
they are boring.
i would rather play old maid.
that is all.

First of all, at "old maid". And I agree with you that they are boring if that is all you are playing. If you are playing a SNG, MTT, or satellite at the same time though, it's nice to be able to play another table for almost guaranteed positive ROI without paying much attention to it at all.

Surely you could multi-table a ton of these things. What happened to trip's experiment I wonder.

A couple things about these:

1. When there are 6 players left, and 1 of them has 2 BB's or less, you should fold every hand. I've been mass multi-tabling these, and it feels great throwing Aces away when you know it doesn't matter.

2. Stack size is THE most important thing late game in DON's. If you're the short stack by a long shot, do NOT be afraid to gamble. You will have to double up to stay in; you're already in a -EV situation, don't make it worse by blinding out when you have an okay hand to go all in with. Additionally, be EXTREMELY aggressive against people with shorter stacks than you. BVB you should almost always push ATC on the BB if there's an extreme shortstack who's already folded.

3.Bubble Factors are EXTREMELY HIGH- This means you cannot call all-ins in most circumstances without a monster hand. On the bubble, you're all playing for the same prize, do you really want to ruin it by taking an unnecessary coin flip with your AK?

4.When blinds get high with 7-8 players, what are our BVB calling ranges? I ask because I often get pushed on (correctly) by regs in these spots, and I'm wondering how far we deviate from normal SNG calling ranges if we know these guys are shoving ATC.

1-3 are mostly advice and things I've gathered from playing, I'm interested in hearing discussion on number 4.

BTW, I've made almost $400 since I started playing these 3 days ago. 15 tabling FTW!

[quote="zachaser"]A couple things about these:

1. When there are 6 players left, and 1 of them has 2 BB's or less, you should fold every hand. I've been mass multi-tabling these, and it feels great throwing Aces away when you know it doesn't matter.

Additionally, be EXTREMELY aggressive against people with shorter stacks than you. BVB you should almost always push ATC on the BB if there's an extreme shortstack who's already folded.



quote]

i don't play these and pretty much hate them and despise the fact that it's just another way grinders are gonna lose fish in their games because they are gonna b attracted to this game , but yeah thats just my opinion.

but
your first point and the second seem to contradict each other. what do we gain by rapeing the bubble? what do those blinds gain us if there is a shorty around? nothing imo. smidges of equity since having a huge stack itm doesn't matter because were done once were itm and are never getting more than 20% of the prize pool, which is why i hate these. no fun , no huge +EV spots.

i could be way off about not pushing extremly light too , that's just my view of it.
say its smthing like
bb200 +ante
utg 500 stack folds
3 other stacks between 1500-3500 fold
you in sb with 2500
bb 2000

i don't see what we gain shoving super wide here. the blinds+ante's arn't really doing much for us and it's like all kinds of bad if bb wakes up with a hand or if he decides he's gonna call us light since he doesn't care (which i assume happens just like it does in reg. turbo sngs)

and in my example in theory bb should prob fold EVERYTHING , including AA , but are regs even doing so? i mean i guess if you know the bb is folding EVERYTHING there than meh do it for shits and giggles , but your really not gaining much if any equity $ev or w/e since your pretty much freerolling into the money with that setup. and chances are randoms are not folding big pairs. ak , aq and who knows what other kinda bad calls they make , i wouldn't know since i've only played a handful of these.

your first point and the second seem to contradict each other. what do we gain by rapeing the bubble? what do those blinds gain us if there is a shorty around? nothing imo. smidges of equity since having a huge stack itm doesn't matter because were done once were itm and are never getting more than 20% of the prize pool, which is why i hate these. no fun , no huge +EV spots.

I wasn't specific enough in my first two points. In your example, everyone is pretty much freerolling, so yes, shoving into the BB would not be worthwhile. What I was talking about in my second point was situations where there's a microstack who's already folded, but you are a shortstack. For example, 200/400/25, you have a 500 chip utg, you're at SB with 1000, BB also with 1000, folded to you. It can be worthwhile to shove in that spot to buy yourself insurance (your smidge of equity) since the micro is not guaranteed to bust. The good part about this is that, theoretically, the BB should fold all hands, so usually you buy yourself another round, plenty of time for others to bust. Make sense?

Also, I hope these attract all the fish, they are proving very profitable so far!

yep makes sense in that situation.


heres a fun example of how stupid i think sometimes.
when they first came out i was like cool , ill grind these so i can hit supernova by the end of the year (not happening anymore) , and than they lower the rake and i was dissapointed lol.

do all you play turbo DON?

Originally Posted by Pino_Diablo

do all you play turbo DON?

I have tried both, but I find the normal speed ones really boring. Also, the rake is lower on the turbo games, so I prefer those. I would still rather play a normal payout structure SnG though, although I did play a few "Double or Nothing" games earlier tonight.

i am beginning to think these are nothing more than a novelty for Stars. they are designed to be 50/50 w/ only the rake coming out ahead in the end.

i have played in over 100 of them. i run about 58% ITM. not bad. but, the short stack NEVER dies on the first shot.

i have seen multiple examples over the last two days. most noted...

QQ v 99 v 55. 55 hits set, and was shortest stack.

AA v T3o. trip 3's hit.

i myself tested the theory and doubled up 4 times. with trash hands.

i understand this cant be proven, and its not necessarily rigged. but, i would look into the "altered deal" rumors and chalk this up there with something Stars may be trying off and on to "juice" the games/rakes.

just saying its possible...

if you post 100 HHs that we can verify where the SS never went out the first time it was AI I'll double your bankroll.

tilty comment to be sure.

but, the runs of crap sucking out are vicious.

all i am really trying to say is Stars/sites could feasibly be behind something where the s/w is altered a bit to randomly help smaller stacks stick around a bit longer to provide action to the tourneys.

and, if you think its unfathomable, you ought to read some of Ed Miller's thoughts. i am not saying "it's rigged." i am saying.....its possible. and, it hasnt helped that i have seen what i have seen while that article is fresh in my mind.

Originally Posted by drmcboy

if you post 100 HHs that we can verify where the SS never went out the first time it was AI I'll double your bankroll.

oh, and be careful with how you word sarcastic "bets" like this. if i were an ass, i would start saving ALL hh's over the next year and find them for you over 1000's of tourneys. then, post them, and tell you to "pay up."

but, i know what you meant. others might not.

Originally Posted by Chopper

Originally Posted by drmcboy

if you post 100 HHs that we can verify where the SS never went out the first time it was AI I'll double your bankroll.

oh, and be careful with how you word sarcastic "bets" like this. if i were an ass, i would start saving ALL hh's over the next year and find them for you over 1000's of tourneys. then, post them, and tell you to "pay up."

but, i know what you meant. others might not.

Judge Judy here we come.....

you said 100+ in a row, of course if you go through enough histories the SS will win their share, it's poker.

i have played in over 100 of them. i run about 58% ITM. not bad. but, the short stack NEVER dies on the first shot.

I'm not paying you because sometimes 55 beats QQ, although I'll happily pay you if it never does.

I'm not saying it's impossible stars is rigged, I'm saying your non scientific off the cuff statements aren't even close to enough to convince me and I'm saying to take your bad beat whines where they belong.

link to Ed Miller?

Also if stars wanted to rig these tourneys, the would rig them so the shorties went broke faster and everyone would go get in another one and pay more rake. Extending them makes stars less money.

Originally Posted by drmcboy

Also if stars wanted to rig these tourneys, the would rig them so the shorties went broke faster and everyone would go get in another one and pay more rake. Extending them makes stars less money.

i dont quite buy this one. the rigging would occur to make the games as close to 50/50 as possible. where no one dominates another...and takes his money. it would be rigged for the action players to return and return and return. the smarter players, obv not me, would move on and play games with larger edges to be had. but, whatevs. i've calmed down and am over it for the time being.

however, i will take to my grave all the shit beats i saw when not involved in the hand. my problem: not running pokerstove and checking just how much equity 95 has against KQ. or how much 8Ts has agaisnt A6s. no freaking wonder these look so much worse than they are. its not like AQ is beating AK.

anyway, here's your link. a super good read for the conspiracy theorists...

http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/a...ine-poker.html

Hmm, I had a go at these now.

I've just played 6 normal speed $5 and 6 turbo's at the same level. I placed in 4/6 in the normal's and 6/6 at the turbo's, which was pleasing considering I have played 6 tables at once.

Some thoughts...

- The turbo tables seem to fill up much quicker
- Turbo's tend to take about 30 mins and normal's about twice that
- Play at the turbo's seemed a lot worse
- There seems to be a lot more logic involved than standard SnG's. For example you tend to push less into opponents if you are a comfortable middle stack.

Overall though they seem quite fun and the standard of players seems quite poor. I think I might give more of these a go later.

Originally Posted by Nakamura

Hmm, I had a go at these now.

I've just played 6 normal speed $5 and 6 turbo's at the same level. I placed in 4/6 in the normal's and 6/6 at the turbo's, which was pleasing considering I have played 6 tables at once.

Some thoughts...

- The turbo tables seem to fill up much quicker
- Turbo's tend to take about 30 mins and normal's about twice that
- Play at the turbo's seemed a lot worse
- There seems to be a lot more logic involved than standard SnG's. For example you tend to push less into opponents if you are a comfortable middle stack.
- The rake is less on turbos.

Overall though they seem quite fun and the standard of players seems quite poor. I think I might give more of these a go later.

Added to your post. Hope you dont mind.

Originally Posted by Ed Miller

I see no reason to strip naked and go running through the streets screaming, “OMG IT’S RIGGED!!!1″

so please don't. Like Ed said, if you run a bunch of numbers and find something suspicious, I'll be reading and after what happened at UB/AP so will everyone else.

Originally Posted by drmcboy

Originally Posted by Ed Miller

I see no reason to strip naked and go running through the streets screaming, “OMG IT’S RIGGED!!!1″

so please don't. Like Ed said, if you run a bunch of numbers and find something suspicious, I'll be reading and after what happened at UB/AP so will everyone else.

point taken. which is why i tried not to go completely off my rocker there....realizing it was a tilty statement. but, then again, CONTROVERSY SELLS, eh?

i am trying to pay attention, but i am not a conspiracy theorist at heart...only when on monkey tilt. so, i doubt i will ever have any solid data to back up any verbal spewage.

one other thing Ed said roughly.....its not like rigging the games cut into a winner's pockets that hard. it doesnt make them a loser. it only slightly diminishes their winrates.

something like that.

here's the thing to learn. no matter how long we've played poker. no matter the stakes. no matter the game. no matter how badly we have/have not beaten the game. WE ARE ALL STILL PRONE TO TILT FROM TIME TO TIME.

the trick is: how often do you tilt? and, how quickly do you stop it?

and, these tourneys, will do it. if nothing else because the turbos are fast and shovefests lead to very high variance, which can often bring on tilt.

The DON's seem insanely easy to me. I find decisions in them very easy, and the level of play is really terrible at times. It seems like to me folks make a lot of incorrect calls, which can be frustrating when an opponent calls your 10x bb bet with AJ and sucks out on your KK.

As you might expect variance is much lower playing these tourneys than standard tourneys, since 5/10 players are paid instead of 3/9). Even though I am 6-tabling it's rare for me to lose at more 2 tables (in fact it's only happened once). Coincidently this can indirectly control your tilting, since your psychological state of mind is much better if you are winning more constantly (albeit smaller amounts).

Consider the player A who plays normal turbos. He plays in 10 tourney's and achieves the following results:
$16.20, $16.20, $27, $27, $0, $0, $0, $0, $0
Total amount paid = $65 Total won 86.4, ROI = 33%

Player B plays 10 $5.20 DoN's and gets the following results:
$0, $10, $10, $10, $0, $10, $0, $10, $10, $0
Total amount paid = $52 Total won = $70, ROI= 34%

Even though they have won similar amounts at similar ROI, which player is more likely not to go on tilt? And which player is going to be better prepared to give his A-game to the table?

As a side note, at the moment I'm making more money 6-tabling these than I would be if was playing standard turbos. At the $6.50's I can 4-table at 25% ROI, but these I'm getting much higher returns 6-tabling (32% at $5.20 [n = 62], 35% at $10.40 [n=40]). The decision to play them or not seems obvious in my case.

Originally Posted by bpashs

Hey new to the site. I just created a fresh account on Pokerstars to be able to judge just how profitable these tables are. The name is bpashs if you want to sharkscope it and follow my progress....

Started with 5 dollars on the account and am now up to 500 in a matter of 5 days. Play 20 D or N on average but occassionally go over to the 104 table where the games tighter but seems easier....

If I can reach 15K before Dec. I'll let you guys know who I am

It's December, and I wonder what the outcome of this experiment was. Bpash's goal was to make a lot of money quickly in double-or-nothings, in an experiment along the line of Ferguson's experiment in starting at nothing. However, unlike Ferguson, his BRM was looking problematic, playing $20 and the occasional $100 DON on a $500 BR. As in: Don't Do This At Home, Kids!

My guess is that he lost this particular stash in short order.

The thing is that, even if he didn't, even if he made a bundle, how he did it should not be emulated. The point of Ferguson's experiment was that BRM matters, and one can do very well without undue risk. Eventually.

The point of the above experiment is that one can maybe do very well while taking outrageous risks. Well, we knew that.

We also are too aware that there is a reason to practice BR management... I, for one, hate going broke.

I've now played the DONs on occasion. Seems to me that the play has become much more controlled, even at the low levels. It's harder than it was, at first, to get to the money, because most people will not go allin. Or risk their stacks. One has to either triple up somewhere along the line and wait it out, or play hard for small gains. That's my opinion of how these games have changed over the months. But I don't play them that often...they are not much fun to me. I like trying to win... ties are only OK in sats.

bpashs must have went busto or something because his sharkscope shows him playing .10 360 mans and his roll is $257 with a 7% ROI.

Originally Posted by Sprayed

bpashs must have went busto or something because his sharkscope shows him playing .10 360 mans and his roll is $257 with a 7% ROI.

It was inevitable that he would, just as it is for everybody who continually plays outside their roll.

I hate these things, The variance is a killer if u have a loooong bad

Originally Posted by nice_aiau

I hate these things, The variance is a killer if u have a loooong bad

IMO these are much lower variance than normal SnG's, particularly since you only need to place in the top five coupled with the fact everyone earns the same amount regardless of the stack size at the end.

I played a handful of these the first couple days that they came out on Stars. Couldn't stand them. Maybe (probably) have changed a bit since then. My experience was that there were alot of morons in them... calling down really light. Was the most boring games I've played online by far. I suppose for someone with a really small bankroll it'd be okay to play a bunch... idk... cut the neighbor's lawn or go shovel a driveway imo.

Man I dont know... I've read countless posts on here and other sites, have read books and watched videos on sng's... and still playing DON is the clear money making choice for me. They're really boring to play (although playing 6 at once makes it a little more bearable). I would say i increase bankroll by at least 3x the speed I would playing other SNG's. I can't turn a profit at 6 max. FR and HU I do alright. MTT takes way too long, and it's really hard to get into a significant cash. 45-180 man is probably my best option other than DON. But I rarely ever even HAVE a losing session playing DON, so while it's the most boring choice, i guess it's the most logical one, since i'm playing to win, and not for entertainment.

I'm undefeated at the $52 level!*

*Over a sample size of 6 sngs.

Originally Posted by givememyleg

I'm undefeated at the $52 level!*

*Over a sample size of 6 sngs.

Hey thats 100% ITM! lol

And after having just played another round of DON 5 minutes ago i realized something.... LMAO at the early posters commenting "too boring" and "too easy". Too easy?If your making money than why wouldn't you keep playing. THAT argument made no sense. Too boring? then go play the play money tables... there should never be a reason to play on cash tables other than to make money, fun is unfortunately not a factor IMO.

Also I am wondering if normal bankroll rules apply to these? Since the variance is so much less...

Too boring relative to a normal SNG.

The ROI you can expect to earn playing DONs is significantly less than that you can earn playing regular SNGs. Also the regular sit and go players get a satisfaction in winning, that doesn't seem to come from cash games (cos the game's never over), or DONs (cos it's like yay I almost doubled my investment and case joint 1st with 5 other people).

I think that players who are break even or losing can do ok with DONs and perhaps make even a little money. Players who want to make lots would have to 20 table these and have a sick push/fold game. If they have that and the ability to 20 table they would make more in regular SNGs.

Originally Posted by gingerwizard

Players who want to make lots would have to 20 table these and have a sick push/fold game.

Then correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this a strong characteristic to have in MTT SnG formats?

And 1 thing that I can not understand, is there are alot Topic Posts #$^% Bubble Post, or XX bb Bubble. If a person is truely having a threshold issue with dealing with being on bubble and how to play push/fold, what better way then constantly BEING on the Bubble?

Originally Posted by Xo_Sirk_oX

Originally Posted by gingerwizard

Players who want to make lots would have to 20 table these and have a sick push/fold game.

Then correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this a strong characteristic to have in MTT SnG formats?

And 1 thing that I can not understand, is there are alot Topic Posts #$^% Bubble Post, or XX bb Bubble. If a person is truely having a threshold issue with dealing with being on bubble and how to play push/fold, what better way then constantly BEING on the Bubble?

Yes it is a strong characteristic to have in MTT formats, depends if you have time to sit and play MTTs that take hours, and if your MTT push/fold game is good.

The bubble is completely different in a DON. 5 players and flatter payout structure make all the difference. You are aiming for 20% equity and can never have more. WAY WAY different in a SNG where bubble is shorter handed and more equity at stake. You would open fold AA never in a SNG but quite often in a DON and that's just the tip of an entire iceberg of subtle and not so subtle differences between the 2 formats.

If you have a sick push/fold game in one format, then you will have the ability to learn the push fold game to a sick standard for another format. Just because you have it in one (say for instance your push/fold game in MTTs is brutal like mcat's) it doesn't mean to say you have it in another (like SNGs where there are guys who having spent forever fiddling with WIZ and can now 24 table the $114s and be uber profitable playing perfect ICM poker).

I think the decisions in the DoNs are much simpler than in regular structure SnGs. For this reason, you should be able to play more tables at a time. If you are only playing 4 tables or 6 tables, I would stick to regular SnGs. If you want to try 15 tables or 20 tables, the DoNs may be the way to go.