Read some SnG Tactics from this site....but one question

I have read a few guides for SnG's and I like the info. Almost unamimously the guides say to start tight and loosen up as the game moves in levels. I would say that makes sense but it leads to a problem I have been facing lately:
I start out tight but most others don't. I see early hands go with 5 people in the pot and usually only 2 deserve to really play, however, whoever gets lucky on the flop usually gets a nicely built pot and they get a good stack going.

By the time its time for me to loosen up I find myself trying to get involved but my cards aren't great and I have to go up against 2-3 opponents who have built huge stacks based on my above explanation: They got lucky in a few pots that they probably shouldnt have played and they get a huge chip advantage.

Now I have to play looser and raise preflop knowing that they won't fold and will call just about any hand and make bets that are difficult for me to call.

I have been playing the small buy-ins ($1.15 on PS) Is this just the nature of these low buyins or is there a way to combat this?

Thanks

you want to make it down to where the blinds are high enough that you either push or fold. then just work on knowing which hands to push from which position and when you have to fold. a lot has to do with reads and stack sizes. an early chip lead dosn't nessasarly mean in the money... i found posting hands in these push/fold situations and reading others posts really helped.

Hi Vinland, welcome to SNG land!!!

Let me explain why the scenario you discussed is a good thing.

There are 9 sets of money going into the pot for an SNG. Good players are not guaranteed to get a share of that this time, but they expect a greater share than bad players. If you have 9 perfect players, the house wins in the end.

This is because you'll all make perfect moves relative to your position and cards, and after you've all played a thousand games, everyone is back where they started, and the house has the rake.

When there are bad players doing silly things you win. I know it's hard to believe you win when you folded and the guy on your left doubles up with AA to 42s, but believe me you do. This is because now, there are only 8 people left sharing 9 people's money!!! DO you see. By folding crap and enjoying the show as silly people push and go bust with silly hands, you gain a bigger share of the pie without doing anything!!!

What is the other advantage of crazy loose players? When you have KK, AA, QQ, they give you money. Ok so 42s wins sometimes and you want to electrcute the goldfish, but mostly you win way more than just holding AA in a tight game will allow you to.

Ok so crazy players giving stacks to better players when you don't have cards may seem a disadvantage. It's not and the reason is mathematical. If you want me to explain the maths I will, but for now we'll leave that there (as most people fall asleep when I start writing maths).

To your other problems. Firstly fulksy's advice is right. Learning when it is and when it isn't mathematically correct to push or call and all in is the real SNG skill. If you don't have SNGPT or SNG wiz to help you post hands and me, Tai or one of the other regs will take a look and help you out.

Your comment "I have to loosen up and raise when I know they will call my raises" worries me. You need to change your mindset.

If you raise try to raise because with the hand you have, you want to play for more chips. I.e. raise like you want a call. If you don't want a call, and you're not short enough to be pushing, is it worth stealing the blinds? Are you raising KJs UTG because you think it's a good idea, or because HOH said that with an M of 15 we "open up" (wtf does open up even mean?)

You're worried about people calling your raises. If you have a better hand than someone who might call, do you want them to call? If they call your cbets 100% of the time, why are you still making them without a hand?

When you play a high buyin SNG, usually everyone is good. The 9 buyins are split fairly evenly, and the little differences between good players and fairly good players make the difference between winning and losing players. When you play a low buyin, when you are good, 4-5 players will kill themselves, you have an edge over the remaining players anyway so you share the 4-5 buyins they donate, and you get a larger percentage because you're better.

I suggest step one. Learn what the phrase ICM means and why it's important. Step 2. Post some hands and we'll help you out however necessary. Step 3. Accept or understand that everytime a donkey does something stupid and busts out you just made some money, even though you didn't gain any chips.

i think ginger has really hammered away at the right stuff tbh, you should go get him some sugar puffs dipped in a beer as thanks.

Seriously though, if your playing tight in $1 games and consistently find that your not extracting most from the opportunities to improve your chip holdings then I would suggest disecting post flop play in much more detail then you are atm, with better tools.

Your hand selection may be strong but if your not making the right actions after the flop then you may need to actively establish some leaks and then begin to work them out.

Playing tight early on should invariably give you opportunities to obtain a chip lead, or at least double up against the players with a larger opening range over a large amount of games.

There is no reason why you HAVE to play looser to beat these players. Personally I would only play looser against the ridicously poor players.

Hi and welcome to the SNG forum! I think the others have pretty much covered it, but the best way to improve is to post hands/tourneys for comment and review.

Hi vinland, welcome to the forums...check this site out, its a great site for getting to know how ICM works and what it is etc.

http://www.chillin411.com/icmcalc.php (click "home" and you'll see a few different sections dedicated to ICM, ignore the Jeapordy bit llf )

also post some hand histories and full tournies. you'll get all the help you need here

While the math behind the argument is not simple, the final analysis of the math is.

Early on in the tournament the chips are worth more in your stack than being flung around the table. Later on in the tournament, the chips are worth more being gambled with than they are sitting in your stack.

To break it down a bit further, if you imagined that each chip were dollar for dollar equivalent (Ie a $10,000 bought you 10k tournament chips) the math figgured out, that early in a tournament the chips are worth MUCH LESS than a dollar each.

As the tournament progresses, the more the chip becomes worth, and the more you should be willing to accumulate more chips to protect that growth. Also the more risks you should be willing to take to gain chips go up also.

But the math includes a lot of things. The blind structure is only part of the equation, how many blinds you have in your stack matters, how many people left before the cash matters, and a few other things I probably don't know about.

Ive finished Kill Everyone, and starting again for the second time. He has an idea of playing very loose in the early stages as its not expensive to see a lot of flops. I took this strategy on and ended in disaster! any thoughts!

A lot of what is said here is true, chip value is not the same as cash value, and any player knocked out adds to your EV from the Sng.

However if the table you are playing in is relatively loose passive (5 people seeing the flop for a limp or a 3BB raise) there is a lot of value to playing hands that have good multiway potential in position - that is limping or calling small raises in multiway pots with small PP, SC, mid-high suited one gappers etc..., however you have to know how to fold them on marginal flops

In addition on those types of tables you want to increase your PFR from 3-4BB to 5-6BB

Originally Posted by Marbleboy

Ive finished Kill Everyone, and starting again for the second time. He has an idea of playing very loose in the early stages as its not expensive to see a lot of flops. I took this strategy on and ended in disaster! any thoughts!

Kill Everyone is mostly about MTTs which have a very steep payout structure at the top but relatively shallow structure at the bubble, so getting ITM gets you only a little more than your buyin back but finishing 1st-3rd can get you several hundred times your buyin. In this sort of structure it pays to gamble early and try to build a big stack which you can use to beat other players with.

However, SNGs are unique in that they have quite a steep difference in payout between 4th and 3rd but a relatively shallow increase in payout thereafter, so chip preservation is essential when you are not ITM. Therefore, a "loose early" strategy is less optimal than a "tight early" strategy for standard SNGs. Hope that made sense!

but don't increase your raising range

Watch some of the videos here, they will help you a lot. Sometimes you'll pick up a hand like TT+ or AQ+ in the blinds with a bunch of limpers or maybe a raise and a few calls. At low stakes, you can almost always just shove here profitably and get called by horrible crap. This was something I didn't realize until I watched some of EllipsesJeff's videos. Taking advantage of edges like this can help you out a lot if you find yourself missing the money a lot.

Another thing that you'll figure out as you play more is that usually you're best off hammering away at shorter stacks and trying to leave the big stacks alone without a good-to-great hand.

Those are just a few ideas for you to think about.

Doan I think those vids are for mtts as well.

Yeah, you're right there, but some of those same ideas do apply to SNGs.

Watch some of the videos here, they will help you a lot. Sometimes you'll pick up a hand like TT+ or AQ+ in the blinds with a bunch of limpers or maybe a raise and a few calls.

And this is part of my problem. When there are say 5 players left and say 3 limp in and I have tt or A10 in one of the blinds, I'd like to raise big. I cant just do the standard 3BB raise. The problem is by the time I get to 5 players, the blinds are pretty big and I can't raise 6-9XBB b/c of my stack size. I might as well push and I can't be sure that I'm winning. See what I mean? I don't play with a lot of blind aggression, I like to at least try and figure out where I am before the money goes in.

Really the main consideration here should be "Has anyone limped with a hand that is dominating me and they won't fold?" In this situation, if you're holding AT, it's a bit risky since I see AJ get limped fairly often, but if your stack is low enough, that is a chance you'll have to take. If you're holding AJ+ or TT+, it should be a pretty easy shove. If someone limped AQ+ or JJ+ with the blinds high, gg them.

Of course, this changes in a bubble situation, if the amount in the pot isn't enough to make a huge difference in your stack, or if you've seen someone who is in the pot limp with a big hand.

SNGs are about knowing when to pull the trigger.

Figuring out where you are is wrong, and least in the sense I think you mean it.

You need to assess where your hand is relative to your opponents RANGE. This is absolutely a key concept for a beginner to understand.

Let's take your example. 5 left, 10BBs (ish), TT in BB, 3 limpers.

Think of all the hands these donkeys limp with.
Think of all the hands they call a push with (a lot less than they limp with).

If you push what % of the time will you get folds. When you are called, how does TT do against their range (pretty well as limping JJ+ is unusual (although not unheard of)).

Lastly does the addition of 4.5BBs help you a lot (yes it's a 45% increase on your stack).

That is where you are, and here I can't click the All in button fast enough.

Too many beginners have a mentality of "putting their opponent on a hand." Put them on a range and suddenly, when you understand just how big that range is, and how rarely they have that hand that beats you, you'll be a lot more inclined to shove good spots like this.

Please consider posting some hands

Yeah. I need to play a couple and I'll post a couple of hands that hopefully show my problems

Originally Posted by gingerwizard

SNGs are about knowing when to pull the trigger.

This is a good line to write on a sticky note and leave it near your computer screen. I think alot of players could boost their ROI if they thought about this every time before they make a push fold move. This is especially important if you get a little antsy near the end of the thing.

In order to learn when to pull the trigger, you better do some serious reading on ICM. It helps alot. After 20 SNG's with solid ICM knowledge you'll really start to see the spots open up where it is correct to start shoving - yet you would never have noticed before if you never read up on ICM. I found after I learned about ICM I am able to pick off lots of good spots to shove/fold where I would have been clueless beforehand. Although you can't really do thorough ICM analysis while in a hand (I think there might be programs for this) it pays off just understanding the concept.

Everyone here is leading you on the right track with the ICM suggestion. Don't forget that it's all about the ranges.