First of all I am not trying to be UL. (made 3k profit this week)
But I have had spots this week 4 times both MTT and Cashgames where I get dealt KK action goes like a way, I am almost certain villian has AA (basically all the times not much reads at all on villian as a whole) but mostly the small 4bet sizing and in last hand which happened today i had only 15BB 3bet KK and he like min4bets me.
So all the 4 times I put villain on AA but can't fold my KK.
I am angry at myself for not learning , most people say its hard to fold KK pre, but I think if the read is there maybe you should.
Last hand which was last of 4 so have it available now was the one i did get 4bet OOP while I only have 15BB.
Depending on the stakes at cash games I think there are certain areas where you can easily fold KK. Ie. you open and a super tight player jams 100bb in your face; among others. Or maybe even to a 4b clickback if the player is super tight.
As far as in tournaments late stage like the posted hand to a 4b clickback, I wonder if it's better to just:
a) assume it's AA and fold readless (unless pot odds)
b) assume it's something like a top ~2.5% hand (AA, KK, AK, QQ) or even just AA, KK and call readless.
I am angry at myself for not learning , most people say its hard to fold KK pre, but I think if the read is there maybe you should.
But you said in your post that you didn't have any reads on the villain all the times, so I'm not sure why you're angry at yourself.
Originally Posted by dombo
Last hand which was last of 4 so have it available now was the one i did get 4bet OOP while I only have 15BB.
Not gonna lie, I regret watching that hand. I don't know why I did, I should have stopped at your post saying you had 15bb. Seriously, you 3-bet with KK and 15bb and want to fold????
Trust me when I say that trying to figure out when to fold KK preflop is the LEAST of your concerns. Spend your time learning and studying things that will actually improve your ROI significantly rather than this trivial spot. You'll make plenty of money by following Eric's advice and just never folding KK preflop for less than 100bb.
Originally Posted by Fnord
Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.
Trust me when I say that trying to figure out when to fold KK preflop is the LEAST of your concerns. Spend your time learning and studying things that will actually improve your ROI significantly rather than this trivial spot. You'll make plenty of money by following Eric's advice and just never folding KK preflop for less than 100bb.
I completely agree that folding KK anytime is just gross, but in this spot, late stage tourney with the stack sizes where they are, what hands are 4bet clicking back there other than Aces? Any other hand I can think of would be 4Bet jamming (this doesn't account for ppl that are complete droolers obv)
Well honestly it could be anything if it's a fish. People do some really stupid shit. But do you realize the read you have to have to fold this? Your read has to be so strong to even consider a fold, and it has to be over a large enough sample to know that the read even means something. That kind of read is impossible in a small stakes MTT. You can't fold. It's just absurd to fold.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a little sad when the guy raises NAI. Not because I know he has AA, but because his raise narrows his range and yup AA is still in it. But that doesn't mean we can fold KK preflop with 15bb after 3-betting.
You said "late stage" in tourney. If we're talking a final table ICM spot with stack sizes and payouts that matter, then I'm willing to listen. But this wasn't that.
Originally Posted by Fnord
Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.
Don't 3bet this sizing with this stack then ever consider folding to a 4bet, with the exception of some bubble situations.
People will absolutely click it back with anything they are going with, for the purpose of leveling you into folding this hand and massively increasing their EV.
But you said in your post that you didn't have any reads on the villain all the times, so I'm not sure why you're angry at yourself.
Not gonna lie, I regret watching that hand. I don't know why I did, I should have stopped at your post saying you had 15bb. Seriously, you 3-bet with KK and 15bb and want to fold????
.
This was the most extreme one of 4, but still I think it was the most obvious one of the 4, it might be me but I just rarely ever have seen someone at the microstakes doing this without AA, unless it was a fish or donk (and the no reads is more as I have no sample on them yet , but mainly all 4 players looked more on the tight side)
Do agree that the 15BB made call here and that I never fold KK with this stack ever (unless ICM or satty) ow maybe a DoN SNG but rarely play these and prolly in a DoN would shove KK or fold if I am save or bubble.
Trust me when I say that trying to figure out when to fold KK preflop is the LEAST of your concerns. Spend your time learning and studying things that will actually improve your ROI significantly rather than this trivial spot. You'll make plenty of money by following Eric's advice and just never folding KK preflop for less than 100bb.
I do agree on study other parts is probably better, still I just don't like to not keep other options open and play hands on default. <---
Basically a JCarver principle to keep thinking bout this if you watched some of his RunItUp MTT shows.
Like you just say that I have to listen to Eric just never folding KK under a 100BB stack, I totally disagree on this. (I know you mean it well) and I prolly put the KK in close 2 100% of the times allin pre if possible without much hesitation, but just saying never do this, its just not my ballpark.
I've never folded kings preflop with 100 big blinds or less.
I've run into aces plenty of times but there have also been plenty of times when I was pretty sure the villain had aces yet it turned out he didn't.
Seemingly this year if I give them a very narrow range in this spot they will open AA like expected and when I give them a wide range they don't maybe its coincedence in 2015 or so (I have to agree other years it was more random like your comment)
Don't 3bet this sizing with this stack then ever consider folding to a 4bet, with the exception of some bubble situations.
People will absolutely click it back with anything they are going with, for the purpose of leveling you into folding this hand and massively increasing their EV.
I agree on this also and again I wasn't ever planning on folding KK here with 15BB, even when my read said AA only here (and in the other 3 spots) but this basically made me make this thread, cause it is just so common to never fold KK pre (.
Also I almost never narrows peoples ranges to one hand only (unless what DonkBee said if you have enough sample) but maybe it just was instinct or so idk, I just didn't see another hand they could play this way.
And for the clicking back in micros? With these stacksizes, I play a lot of volume , but rarely see this, might be cause I am rarely playing PS, but softer sites?
Well honestly it could be anything if it's a fish. People do some really stupid shit. But do you realize the read you have to have to fold this? Your read has to be so strong to even consider a fold, and it has to be over a large enough sample to know that the read even means something. That kind of read is impossible in a small stakes MTT.
It wasnt a fish and was less 100 runners left or so big5 and I didn't have much info like said , but sizings/stacksizes do tell a lot imo.
And your last comment is not right at all, on almost every site I play I do have enough sample in small stakes MTT's, just cause the average size fields aren't that big and I play lots of volume and see same players more often.
This was just on PS where I don't have the sample. Besides that was moved to this table 11 hands before or so.
I don't think anyone can fold KK with 15BB profitablly. In cash game with 100BB not a lot of people can fold KK preflop.
With 15BB left I would never fold AK, QQ, JJ unless I face some ukrainian nits' action )
And your last comment is not right at all, on almost every site I play I do have enough sample in small stakes MTT's, just cause the average size fields aren't that big and I play lots of volume and see same players more often.
Well obviously if you see someone in multiple tournaments repeatedly day after day, that's different. Your post gave no indication that your hand was that situation. Your hand was from a large field tournament on Pokerstars, where my statement is perfectly applicable. I know from experience that most people vastly over adjust based on their "reads" on players. I play HU SnGs and see situations where someone can play the same player for dozens or even hundreds of games and still over adjust based on their reads. People vastly underestimate the number of hands required vs someone before a read actually becomes meaningful.
Originally Posted by Fnord
Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.
I fold KK maybe 1-2 times a year in live poker and run into instances maybe 5-10 times a year where I really want to fold it but don't, and in those cases I'm probably right ~50% of the time.
You could probably fold KK pre with 15 BBs after about 4 straight all-ins from normal tight players. After 3-betting a 15-bb stack there are several hands worse than KK that you can't fold.
Had a similar spot yesterday, immediately tagged the hand.
Should I have fold KK here? I did 5bet KK , but he 6bets and leaves room. (5bet fold or flat 4bet?) with flatting 4bet here I would have gone broke post , i think 5bet folding leaving my self with like 80BB;s?
Also totally not a guy that is going out of line pre so deep.
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, 27.5 Tournament, 200/400 Blinds 40 Ante (9 handed) - Party-Poker Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com
I don't think it is similar when you look at it from a Harrington on Holdem II perspective. In the first spot you have 15 big blinds but in this latest one you have 131 - night and day difference. You're in completely different zones.
I think if there was some magical way to spot aces and get away from them then life would be much simpler. But especially nowadays even when people are clicking you back it definitely isn't always aces. I mean look at some of the pros going on clickback wars with ex. A9o v 55. Unless you have a SOLID read on someone that they only 4/5B clickback aces then you just have to go with it; I mean even if they do, you still have around 18% equity with KK to take down the pot and in late stage tourney play you're looking at a usually large double-up when you bink it putting you in a good position to take down the tournament VS the alternative of folding and giving up whatever large portion of your stack you already have in he middle (taking into account whatever possibility, even sometimes small, that it's not actually aces).
Unless you have very good read about your opponent (who you encounter many times before) and put his hand on Aces because he made similar action when have aces, you're not gonna fold your Kings, even with 100BB. Kings is like the magic hand you get when your stack is 15BB, why you have to regret )
But I do see some players just flat call with Kings when facing tight players' open raise, so you can dodge Aces once in a while with this play, but not sure this play can bring your best profit in the long run. Give it a try )
This demonstrates perfectly why I'm never folding kings pre.
Last hand last night, some dude who had been playing relatively solid stuff on a fishy table decided to 3b shove 53o for 30bb into my button raise with AA. It wasn't that bad a shove, I mean I fold JJ and AQ because he had done nothing over an hour session to demonstrate that he was capable of shoving AJ in that spot, let alone pure junk. He probably actually makes money in that spot and was unlucky to run into my unfoldable range. Point is, bee is right. People do stupid shit all the time, myself included.
I can see some reason for paranoia if PFR was UTG and you 3b UTG+1, but even still I'm jamming for 15bb's and it's not even close.
You're on the BTN, where it could easily be assumed you are getting more out of line than any other position. Barring some amazing read, you just can't ever fold this.
Agree with donkbee, there are so many other spots that come up more often that will impact your game, than worry about folding KK with 15bb's.
Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
You should consider your own table image. Have you been playing a bit loose, making it seem reasonable that another player could push you around with a marginal hand? If so, then pound with KK - you're very likely the overwhelming favorite.
I have lost so many comps and big money by over-playing KK. Seriously thinking about open-folding from now on, or just set-mine or get to a cheap showdown
I have never folded KK preflop in 16 years of playing poker.
Field mice are fast, but owls can see in the dark.
<Bbickes> i still wanna know if the thing in your avatar is a real chick or not
<Bbickes> or am i e-crushing a dude
I would hardly ever fold KK on an online poker game. The problem is that most players that play online are wild players. They do not play as if it was a professional game. So most of the time your KK is good. It is very unlikely you will run into AA. Now if you were playing a live tournament for big stakes, just then I would question if the player has AA. I ran into this problem at a WSOP tournament. I had KK under the gun and had 3 players go all in. I folded my hand being almost positive some one had AA of at the least AK or AQ. But when the players showed their hand, they had 44, 55, and QQ. I would have won a huge pot if I would have called.
I have a couple times. One time I was shown aces. Another time I made a mtg raise, there was then a re-raise and 3 pushes. Showdown was AK, QQ, and 10 10 I think. One of them flopped a set. Idk, if ur all in vs these hands you,ve got to be like 30 percent to win hand. You may not want to gamble depending on your standing in tourney.
I have setmined KK once. Can't remember exactly what happened, I think I faced a min 5bet from a solid deep stack. I snap folded rags flop and he showed his aces. I didn't tell him I folded kings, because I didn't want him to know how face up he was.
Don't think I've ever folded them pre though. And I've got it in many times "knowing" I was up against aces.
I've folded AA pre once, but that was a satellite at the bubble, I was covered and I was deep enough to fold to victory.