Discussion: Ripptyde's Tourney Strategy

{Split by Xianti from Ripptyde's Tourney Strategy}



rippy what would be the correct move if you have medium stack,

and rep the ace on flop and short stack calls for 50% of his stack

do you put him allin or check to river?

Fold, fold fold, fold fold fold, 10/10 all in …Q/2 calls hits a Queen on the river….or fold fold fold fold fold fold fold all in A/K no help…..you've seen it…

looks a lot like some one i know









p.s, which buy in sng's do you play rippy? how often do you fish ITM?

thx for great post.

Despite that you probably consider me one of the stat guys here (and maybe a camper, although I hope you know that I'm a lot more aggressive than that by now), I completely agree with backing up your preflop raises on the flop, even with an ace out there, as long as they're checking to you.

Only thing I disagree with is: "The self proffessed 'tight' players who fold and fold and fold and fold to their hearts content, and then boldly thrust all their chips into the center of the ring with pocket Kings UTG seem to inevitably get burned by a loose big stack caller with A/2os more often than not catching that miracle turn or river card."

As much as you don't like to admit it, A2o wins 29% of the time. Always. If this person only has the opportunity to go in once with KK and loses to A2o, then he probably feels like you do, or starts talking like a conspiracy theorist about how the game is rigged. But like you know, even a very strong preflop advantage (and advantage at the flop usually) in Holdem still very beatable. In this case, the KK loses more than 1 out of 4 times.

But anyway, I completely agree that it works to steal blinds from late position with a 3x BB raise with rags, as long as the players at the table respect your game and you haven't been doing it too often. And if they call, for the love of god, you have to backup your preflop raise at the flop when you likely miss or hit bottom / middle pair. If you're not going to backup your preflop raise unless you hit big, you shouldn't have raised with rags in the first place.

What do you do with smooth-callers? Or rather, what would you do when you're afraid that someone is smooth-calling you?

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Very good read. Seems like a good fit for the turbos, but the campers can work against you in the regular games. Ive made the money >70% of my last 50 SnGs playing camper until ~half the feild is gone. Of course, after that, it's time to start playing.

Originally Posted by Ripptyde

Originally Posted by stuck

What do you do with smooth-callers? Or rather, what would you do when you're afraid that someone is smooth-calling you?

ease off and don't risk anymore chips. I guess its easy to simplify it with one sentence but I have a bad habit of not following my own advice sometimes and will try a power play instead of just realizing I am beat and getting out of Dodge. :P

Depends. Sometimes you can continue betting and they'll fold out. A few days ago (I don't have the HH), I was dealt AA very early in the game. (3rd or 4th hand). I was in early position (either UTG or one past). I wanted one caller, so I figured I'd raise it to 100. (Blinds were 10/15.) I got three callers. Flop is TTQ, with TQ suited, my aces off.
Crap, that was the worst flop I could see, possible trips, and flush and straight draws on the board.

I made a large bet hoping to either scare off everybody or get a reraise and then fold. I get two callers, so now I'm scared, thinking they're either drawing or have the set and slow-playing, I don't have reads on anybody. Next card completed the flush draw. So now I'm getting really scared. Make another large bet, and one guy calls.

River was rags ... Now I'm thinking, do I check and hopefully I have this guy beat. But that'll give him the option of raising at which point I'll have to fold, or I can bet big again and see if he pushes all-in.

So I bet another 200 or so, and the other guy folds. Won a huge pot (went from 800 to about 1600) without showing my cards....

but I know that can backfire as well .... personally, if I've got a monster (nut flush or boat), I'll let people keep betting then push all-in at the river...

Tried this strategy in a regular $10 SnG last night. I started using it once the blinds got to 25/50. I increased my stack by 30-40% on the blind stealing 3 hands out of about 30 hands; only got called once took that down post flop. I tried probably another 4 times and got called/reraised every time.

I took a fairly large pot with a good Ace rep. from early position after raising with KQs and 3 callers. Unfortunately, that was the last decent hand I saw, until my KK lost to AA after some dwindling of my stack.


I like the concept, and will be playing this again tonight. I may try it in a turbo, but I've never done well in them before (probably playing to tight)

Nice post: 2 places where I would disagree:

(1) Check-raising vs betting your set. It depends... if someone actually has the ace pair, theres a good chance they will be calling you down to the river or re-raising you on the flop/turn. With a re-raise from them, you have an extra bet (if you re-raise) vs a check raise. A check-raise might scare them out.
(2) Camping your chips in SnG. I find there isnt much a difference between 2x-4x chipcount in SnG games (only on Paradise). Especially if you have 3x+. You could probably post and fold and place in the top-3 90%+ of the times. Some strong preflop raises are in order to keep your chipcount level, but any competed pots (IMHO) your in, at those chipcounts are more risk than reward.

I don't know if you've read Doyle Brunson's Super System, but what you described is very close to what he writes about in his book. He always wants to be the one doing the raising and putting the other players chips at risk.

Not much to say other than thanks for the advice. I was seeing great results with this sort of play last night.

Ya... I tried out your suggestion and it really works! Always makin the top 30 in the freerolls now (I usually just quit after 30, because it takes too much time). I have a question though...

Today, I had a mediocre hand and I bet 3x the bb like you said... The flop came out and I paired... I raised 4x the bb and one person called. Then on the turn I raised again and he called. On the river, I had the 2nd or 3rd top pair and I raised again thinking he had nothing... He fires back an all-in on me.... How would I know if he was bluffing or not?

I've been doing what you said in $5 SNGs at partypoker and I have been getting a few firsts and a lot of top 3s. Now my problem is ring games.

The proof's in the pudding. Here's my last WEEK on Stars playing this style:

Dec 18 - 10+R 22:15EST - 1/1005 - $8795
Dec 19 - 10+R 22:15EST - 58/950 - ~$90
Dec 23 - 10+R 22:15EST - 16/942 - $337
Dec 23 - 5+R $500k Qualifier - Top 11 - win $530 seat.

That's not mentioning 3-4 bubble finishes.

hi i find myself to be a somewhat good tourney player although am a camper for sure probably why i always get to the final table UTG with little room for error what i found intereting is what u said about raising 3xBB even with marginal hands does this apply if someone raises? or is this better if no one raises? i place regularly ITM but have only one first place so far i want to win more consistently or atleast be in the top 3 at all times if possible.also i have bluffed a lot and won 90% of the time possibly because of position and number of players against.finally i have seen people raise a lot pre flop and rags come on the flop but they bet huge anyway is this to steal the pot or to remove limpers or is it to continue to show strength these are my 2 cents feel like 50 though happy new year!!!

Avatar -

How many total buy and rebuys including bubble outs?

Originally Posted by zenbitz

Avatar -

How many total buy and rebuys including bubble outs?

8x 10+R Tournaments @ $11/ea (10+1) = $88
20x Rebuys - $200
8x Addons - $80

Total Expense - $368
Total Income - $9649

That's cashing 4x (1st, 10th, 16th and 58th). The 4x I missed the money were all pretty close to bubble finishes.

I am new to this site (this is my first post), I read with great interest your strategy ripp, and tried using it in a 2200 player freeroll.. I tried to pay attention to position, and play aggresively when in late position and 4-5 folds in front. A few hands into it (15-20), after losing a couple of blinds and not having much to play, I was in late position with JJ with like 4 folds in front ,and maybe one call of the BB (blinds were up to 100 maybe at this point) , and raised 4x the BB, which depleted me by 50%percent or so... ) one caller. then the flop was 10 10 A , i checked (maybe not the best move since i had raised big preflop) and the other player bets 200 or something , which I called. turn was no help (Q I think), he bets big again, and I fold , odds seemed against me at this point. anyways, to make a long story short, I lost a majority of my dwindling stack, and couldnt recover as the blinds increased, went all in with 400 in my stack (again in late position) with 4-4 to lose to QQ. I finished right around the very middle of the pack. I will try your plan again though soon... Any thoughts?

I just used this strategy in my last multitable. I was in against 410 players. By the time we were down to about 19 tables I was ranked 30th. I was doing well and stealing a lot of blinds at a very tight table. I often folded to any reraises.

Then at the end I started getting sloppy and not playing correctly and/or too aggressive. I ended up playing some ahnds the way I shouldnt and finished 111.

This strategy has great potential especially when dealing with a tight table where 3x-4x BB will often scare those off without big hands. And often they will reraise which is when you know its time to cut your loses..

I think its necessary to understand your table environment. If your playing against a lot of lose or similarly agressive players I can see this running into trouble.

Great Post - Thanks

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Ripp,

I see now that I did read your post out of context- You make reference to playing the SnG games, I missed that part. I have read before advice that says to stay very tight in the early stages of a MTT or freeroll, which I have used with some success, (although have yet to finish ITM) as I am, while not a novice, certainly not as experienced as you and some of the others here. About to play another freeroll, and will take your advice regarding laying down hands and surviving. Thanks for your advice man!

Jamie

Ok,

Finished 81st in the 2200 player freeroll, adopting a tight in the beginning (survival ) strategy, and looser and more agressive in the 2nd hour. Got caught by somebody slow playing trip jacks on me though, near the end, and that took a large part of my stack. couldnt bounce back with the very small stack... still a pretty good showing for me

8-)



P.s. also looking forward to your edited post on freroll and MTT strategy! 8-)

Hi - I enjoyed the post.

I didn't agree with some of it. Pieces of it echo what masters have said about positional play. My normal play is MTT vs SnG, so maybe your revised strategy will speak to that.

Sklansky's book on Tournament poker starts with a couple of sections that basically state the obvious: when they're out, they're done; when you're out, you're done type of a thing. This is critical in SnG where you only have to beat your table, and maybe one more. You can get a read on players without being bounced around.

In MTT, you have to rely far more on the cards and have more patience. You can't really get a read on a player before you're bumped to another table. (I'm speaking of the first two hours.)

I feel you contradict yourself a little bit in this: you give advice to raise 3xBB based on position - because everyone will fold 80% of the time and you can steal. You also state that when you have a monster, don't put more in the pot, because people will not call you. Just put in 3xBB. Well, according to your theory on stealing the blinds, no one will call you when you bet 3xBB on your monster, which is actually what you WANT.

Also, I never try to steal from the "steal" positions (button, SB). People expect that. I steal from mid-late - then it isn't as obvious.

As an FYI, I usually play the $30 - $50 (non-turbo) sng's on Stars and the $10 MTTs.

My $.02.

Good luck,
MD

double post

Originally Posted by md_yoda

Hi - I enjoyed the post.

I didn't agree with some of it. Pieces of it echo what masters have said about positional play. My normal play is MTT vs SnG, so maybe your revised strategy will speak to that.

Sklansky's book on Tournament poker starts with a couple of sections that basically state the obvious: when they're out, they're done; when you're out, you're done type of a thing. This is critical in SnG where you only have to beat your table, and maybe one more. You can get a read on players without being bounced around.

In MTT, you have to rely far more on the cards and have more patience. You can't really get a read on a player before you're bumped to another table. (I'm speaking of the first two hours.)

I feel you contradict yourself a little bit in this: you give advice to raise 3xBB based on position - because everyone will fold 80% of the time and you can steal. You also state that when you have a monster, don't put more in the pot, because people will not call you. Just put in 3xBB. Well, according to your theory on stealing the blinds, no one will call you when you bet 3xBB on your monster, which is actually what you WANT.

Also, I never try to steal from the "steal" positions (button, SB). People expect that. I steal from mid-late - then it isn't as obvious.

As an FYI, I usually play the $30 - $50 (non-turbo) sng's on Stars and the $10 MTTs.

My $.02.

Good luck,
MD

You can get a read on players in a good 2 orbits. within two orbits its pretty easy to peg, level of play, betting habits, ect. It takes practice but you can get there just fine.

As far as monsters. There is no contradiction, if you people fold, they fold. Thats the breaks. Better to win the blinds with AA then to limp in and let the BB flop that straight with 52o. even moreso in a tourney situation, because as you said. When you are out, you're out.

There is a hude advantage to Rip's strategy in that if you steal blinds half the time you're on the button/late pos for 5 orbits, people are going to catch on and put in a reraise to shut you up. Tight players will put in this reraise on a good hand and monsters dominate good hands even more than they do bad hands, and the bad hands will fold - you can push in this situation, take down the reraise, or eliminate a player/double up, and get the chance to show a monster which lets players know that you will definately push with a monster, and that even though you play aggressive, you often have the cards to back it up.

what do you do with a table full of rippys ... stealers, re-stealers ... talented LA players ... u push someone else pushes ... getting kind of like a crap shoot? or a game of group chicken ...

On average, what type of percentage of hands played do you have, how often do you see the flop?

Right now I'm around 20-25%. It seems to me if you play rags occasionally that yours could be around 30-40%, and I'm just curious if yours is really that high.

Thanks.

Originally Posted by Obertray

what do you do with a table full of rippys ... stealers, re-stealers ... talented LA players ... u push someone else pushes ... getting kind of like a crap shoot? or a game of group chicken ...

hehe The table is broken up pretty quickly, as for strategy at this point, you either excercise your stack or get out of the way . Its not a crapshoot, it becomes poker. Anyone can be playing a variety of things. If they are all talented players I bet it would make the best (and probably shortest) TV segment .

Originally Posted by Ultimate George

On average, what type of percentage of hands played do you have, how often do you see the flop?

Right now I'm around 20-25%. It seems to me if you play rags occasionally that yours could be around 30-40%, and I'm just curious if yours is really that high.

Thanks.

I play a similar style and usually sit about 35%, i've played deep into a tourney with a 60% flops seen, it depends a lot of what rags, table position, table dynamic, stack size and what not.

A question about Rippy's strategy,

Would you Rep. the flop if you were the first person to act? Lets say you have QJo and the flop is A 4 7 rainbow? Their are 3 more people to act behind you.

Good question, this gets me in trouble sometimes.

Would you Rep. the flop if you were the first person to act? Lets say you have QJo and the flop is A 4 7 rainbow? Their are 3 more people to act behind you.

Depends on pre-flop, action, reads, and most importantly stack size. If you are the big stack, then yes, you throw out at least a 1/2 pot bet. Probably bigger, because you want to bluff out the AX guys.

I assume the other 3 guys limped, because if it was raised pre-flop, then someone's not only got an ace, but probably a kicker as well.

If it was raised PF, I might check it, and raise a a weak looking bet.

If you are a small or average stack... I probably just check-fold it. Especially if the pot is small (like 200 chips), unless my opponents were super tight-passive. You gotta pick your battles, and you have no hand and no draw. You gotta ask yourself - what am I going to do if I'm raised back? Push? Fold? Call? What if the turn is another blank, or worse, a Q! How many chips are you willing to risk to find that Ace?

Originally Posted by Ripptyde

For example….you are dealt K/Jos…decent starting hand worthy of playing. You raise pre flop with a big chunk of your stack and get a caller or two. ACE/rag/rag on the flop.

What now ?

Check in 2nd or 3rd position after a check or two because you didn’t hit your King or your Jack ? WRONG !!! REP that Ace !! A: you get reraised and you cut your losses. B; you get 2 scared little kitties folding and giving you a triple up from your original pre flop raise (which was hopefully healthy with a group 2 hand like K/J)

or C: one of them calls you? Turn is Q? Bet more?

Originally Posted by BreakfastMan

A question about Rippy's strategy,

Would you Rep. the flop if you were the first person to act? Lets say you have QJo and the flop is A 4 7 rainbow? Their are 3 more people to act behind you.

This is probably a given, but as a micro-limit player I'd like to put my two cents worth in (pun intended).

In the lower limits, this is only a limited upside to betting out at the pot. Players in the lower limits will take their A2o into a bet pot, and hold onto it for dear life when they hit it. It just so happens at this point that they would be milking you for money as they would think they would have the best hand, not even considering another Ace out there as they only play thier *own* hand. A reasonable bet would dump the chaff out of the hand, but anyone still in the pot you would have think is sitting on Ax.

The chance of someone keeping A2o is much higher in the lower limits I find, and the raise might only be 50% effective.

One comment/question here:

Playing Low Pairs

I think some people make the mistake of betting the ranch on low to medium pairs too often. I think (unless it's late in the tourney or you have position and a stack advantage over remaining players) its wise just to call medium bets and play them for the set. Betting the ranch on deuces or sixes or a hand that will invariably be going up against two overcards is asking for trouble more often than not. But again...stack size should determine the size of your bet after you have assessed who will and won't be in that hand for the remaining cards.

I agree with this for the most part, but what about if you're up against a hyper-aggressive player heads-up? If I'm dealt 22 or 66 I will push. Chances are he can't stand the re-raise and will fold, or if he does call, well you DO have to win those races now and then.

Do you agree?

But that is a pretty specific situation. For the most part I agree with what you've said - call a moderate raise and play for the set.

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Rip and Rad,

Just read your posts today and decided to try it out on a freeroll on UB. Wish I could say I made final table or even ITM, but I DID do a lot better than what I had been doing. Thanks for taking the time to post these.

One minor adjustment for mtt's that seemed to help out. When they split up my table (four times) I switched gears and went on a camping trip for a while . This accomplished a couple of things. It gave me a chance to get any reads on the new table and seemed to give THEM that I was a tight player. So when I did start stealing some blinds and a few flops it seemed to take them longer to catch on.

Thanks again!

Dean

rip(or whoever),
lets say you raise with rags from the CO, and both of the blinds call. how do you play postflop differently when you didn't isolate one player? if the button calls and one of the blinds calls, how does that change since your play since you no longer have position?
thanks

Just a little funny story about this topic...
Playing in a little $5 SnG on PP the other night, blinds were up to 25/50, about 7 players left. I had decided I was going to attempt a steal when the button got to me, a few hands in advance. (I had the third smallest stack) The button came and I got AA. Thought I would have a little fun. Two limpers came in before me. In the chat window, I typed, "alright this is a steal, everyone lay down your cards and no one gets hurt" (This was a pretty chatty table to begin with) Then I bet 300. The big blind calls, and one of the limpers says, "bullshit" and reraised all in. "I told you no one would get hurt, but noooo...." I call, BB folds, and I take almost all of his stack. Couldn't stop laughing for a while, especially all the cursing that was going on after that.

Some good points in Riptydes post, if a little self explanatory. It would be interesting to see how he would play a willhill tournament, in which there is much less margin for error and in which one decent raise will commit half of an average stack mid tournament.

Ripptyde could you post a hand history from one of the SNG's you have one?

Where is rippy's original post? I don't see it here. I am new to this board, so am I missing something?

its in a different sticky thread

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First of all, great sticky on the Tornament strategy, it's helped me loosen up my game and although the results are mixed so far, I'm pretty sure I'll get better at it.

Let me know if I'm wrong, but here's how I'm interpreting your early game stratagy. This is going to be a bit long. I'm trying to work out the kinks in it right now. Played 2 10+1 SnG and lost both pretty badly. Then played a 20+2 SnG and placed 2nd (AQ didn't hold up against 99). I've found that this strategy definantly works better as the skill level of players go up. At the 10 dollar level, players were calling me left and right when they had no business to

Anyway, here's my take on why Repping the Ace should always be used in situations where you pre-flop raised.

Let's say that this is the 14th hand of the 10 Player SnG.

Typical Early Game Scenario:
Assuming you have perfect reads.

5 folds to Player A.
Player A (50% flops seen): 800 chips (calls 30 chip blind)
You (25% flops seen): 1000 chips [KdTs] (raises to 90 chips)
Button (10% flops seen): 700 chips (calls 90 chips)
Small Blind and Big Blind both fold

Pot = 315

Flop comes out: Ac8c7d

Player A (doesn't call if flop doesn't hit): Check/Fold
You (first time repping the ace in session): Bet 200
Button: Plays straight up, no tricks.

Scenario 1: Button does not have anything, being a tight/passive player, he folds. You get pot of 515 (actrual value +225)
Scenario 2: Button does have Ax or a set, either calls you or reraises. At which points you fold. (actrual value -290)

Chances of Two Aces dealt out to players with one Ace on board: 60%ish
Chances that at least one player will call your bet with an Ace preflop and not re-raise: 40% (20% est. doubled due to assumption that two aces are dealt out)
Total chance of Button having Ax or hit a set: 30% (inflated to take into account possibility of only one ace or three aces being dealth out and one of them calling your bet).

This play would be the correct play to make as it would net you more chips by % than it will lose you.

Now suppose that Player A folded instead of making the initial call. Your actrual value for taking the pot drops to +135. Your actrual value for repping the Ace and failing becomes (-240) with a similar sized bet in relation to pot. Net profit after applying the 30% probobility is still positive.

The key to this is that you're willing to immediately check/fold if you're caught. Either he's counterbluffing or actrually has the ace, doesn't matter, it's usually not worth your stack to find out.

So, unless your opponants are so loose that they'll call you with mid pair, or you think they're onto you (for example, you've been caught repping the ace earlier), Repping the Ace works, even from early/mid position assuming your preflop raise limited the # of players.

So, good interpretation? And while you wrote a lot about how to play while you're "on the bubble," there isn't really that much addressed to early game (where you presumably set yourself up for the bubble by gaining a chip lead). It'd be great if you could go into more detail on early play (first 20 orbits) because right now, I'm still sticking to a tight/cautious style and waiting for reads.

Just a quick question for MTT's and what is considered early, middle and late stages. Would you look at the blinds as a guideline or % of people left in the tourney.Obiviously the first hour you are going to play tight but into the second and third hour what is considered the mid part. Just wondering when you should start trying to make your move and win some pots or take some more chances.

Ripp,

Thanks for the great post, I added it to our new tournament strategy section on the http://www.flopturnriver.com/MTT-Tou...-Strategy.html page.