crushing SnG's?

What would you define as crushing SnG's, ITM and ROI?

I think ROI is the defining stat and I personally think 25%+ is very good and 40%+ is crushing the game.

well i don't think anyone could keep a 25% roi over a long period of time say of 5000 sng's. I see people syaying im pimping sng's i have 48% ROI. How many have you played? 4.

Interesting, how many SnG's have you played to come up with this conclusion?

You asked my opinion and I gave it, I never said it was fact. Ask DaveSimon and Radashack if you can maintain an ROI of higher than 25% and I promise you they will say yes.

And whats up with attacking me like this, I have in fact played 127 of the $10s over which I have a 40%+ ROI. It might not be sustainable at higher levels and I know its a small sample size but I still believe it might be possible at these low buyin sngs by a very good player even though I might not be able to.

As for the crushing, I dont take that term lightly and that is why I said 40%+ because I someone who is "crushing" the game should be getting insane stats.

So I dont mind you questioning those numbers but whats up with the attitude Muxy?

I agree. My statement was towards muxy.

i STILL stand by the 2+2 people, who have played more SNGs than I am sure anyone else here has.

40% ITM and 20% ROI over a few thousand SNGs is crushing the game. Granted at the 5s and 10s the numbers should be much higher, but as levels move up I think that this number constitutes "crushing".

There is a player at PP named gamboolholic_ who has a 6% ROI at the 1k Steps and WSOP Step 6s. She four tables. I believe that consitutes absolutely crushing the game.

And let us please contain the "GOOD ROI GOOD ITM" posts to as few posts as possible, or make a sticky.

It was a different subject. Its also pointless to regurgitate 2+2 and then state "I have my sources".

Once again, most of those players are playing PP. ROI's will be different with extremely different blind structures.

Yes the blind structure makes a HUGE difference. You just cannot compare ROI on party sngs with ROI on PS sngs.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...=&fpart=2&vc=1
Read every post in that thread if you want a good discussion on ITM and ROI. There are many people who agree and many people who disagree, but everyone brings up what they can

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...=&fpart=1&vc=1
A very short blurb on attainable stats that references the first thread.

You refer to the fact that most of these players only play PP. You are correct in stating that different blind strcutres would contribute to different numbers. Therefore, I would assume that your original question would read as "What ITm and ROI consitutes "crushing the game" at a)PP b)Pokerstars c)Pokerroom d)Prima and Skins e)Bodog, so on and so forth."

I'm confident that I could maintain a 50-75% ROI at the $1.10 SNGs, but this makes no money. Move up to the $5.50's and for a while I was at 50% ROI. But if anyone can attest to the fact that you can't maintain this, it's me.

Believe it or not, the cards you get do come into play and you can't win em all.

The biggest problem I have with Irieguy is that he says his post is opinion based on data....that he has no interest in proving his statemens. Then he proceeds to state things as fact.....because he is the authority on the subject. He acknowledges contradictory data, but says he doesn't care about that data because it does not support my conclusions or conflicts with the data he chooses to pay attention to.

Anyway, it all sounds impressive and seems legit but I am far from being convinced....just because an intelligent guy says some impressive things (albeit snotty and superior sounding at times) claiming supportive data does not inspire cofidence in the validity of his claims.
Why beleive him....why believe Soupie....why believe Radashack or myself?? Over time you get to know people....begin to trust them, yes even online you can develop a pretty decent picture of someone's character over a long period of time. I suppose if I got to know him through his posts over the last few years I would be able to more readily accept his claims. In the end, perhaps my exposure to a few truly exceptional people has clouded my vision.

As for "crushing" the game I suppose over 45% would be considered crushing it. I would be lying if I didn't say Irieguy's post didn't worry me a bit. I don't really have an explanation for my unusually high stats, I suppose I have been on a 10 month long "heater" I just hope I can keep it up and prove him wrong. The funny thing is....I had no idea they were considered above "normal" until Mike and Soupie said something - I guess that sometimes if you don't know there is a standard then you can't unconsciously conform to it.

You assumed wrong. I was wanting to know what everyone thought was crushing the game. You said you were crushing the $10's at bodog. Since I dont know what crushing means, I just thought Id ask.

DavSimon, I understand the issues that you have with Irieguys post. I have the same issue in questioning the validity of his statement, becase as one poster pointed out in that thread, his 10,000 SNGs were spread out over many different levels, and even 10k SNGs isnt a very big sample size. It is his opinion on that issue based on a questionable sample. However, in the end after many reading many posts on this subject, and hearing people such as daliman and gigabet, both very succesful players (gigabet recently placed 5th in a WSOP tourney might have been PLO), recount their statistics playing in the 200s and above, I have come to my own [attempt italics] opinion [end attempted italics] that over a very long term 20% ROI at high levels constitutes crushing the game.

ZeeJustin a very successful player (i think hes 19 or 20) who played in a EPT event, just started his quest for 1k 200s. I think over the first 250 or so SNGs he was running at around 25% ROI. If you believe that as a very god player your ROI could possibly be as high as 40%, here is an example of a very good player running as low as 25%. This would therefore imply that short term sample sizes as big as 250 could potentially represent hot or cold streaks, and that if you can run at 40% over a few hundred, you could also run much lower, and therefore over a long period of time your actual ROI would even out.

Hey gnomes sorry If my post rubbed you the wrong way, it wasnt supposed to. Its hard to discern peoples tone of voice over the internet, and I hope that i didnt come up as an A-Hole or anything.

At this point in time I am NOT crushing the 10s. My most recent statistics are in the "post ur statistics" thread. Those statistics are for my summer session so far. Hoping its just variance and that I dont really suck at poker.

I'd say davsimmon is running well ontop of crushing the game. I mean he almost literally wrote the book on sit n goes.

sit n go stats are even worse then ring game stats. by the time you have like a 1000 sngs under your belt you are a completely different player and the stats are irrelevant.

I agree with bmxcicles statement.

When I run bad in SNGs I go do something else, whether it be ring or MTTs or read more stuff. I took up poker in Feb, crushed (120% ROI over 200 SNGs) the $5s on Pacific then had a bad spell. I took that as a sign I had to up my game...so I learned different strategies to play ring. I turned my free $10 on Royal Vegas into $300 over a couple of months and then went back to SNGs. My game is constantly evolving so I try to take stats with a pinch of salt. This week I've come back to SNGs and am just breaking even (only 10 SNGs). I know I'm a better player now though so if I put my mind to it I'll be fine. I won't compare these stats to my old SNG stats, though as my game is different.

Making money is the important thing...ROI depends very much upon the type of game you play, rake, blind structure, opposition on the site, level, etc. Assigning arbitary numbers isn't very helpful or useful. Conversely, though, I don't see 20%+ being unattainable, but (as always) it depends!

Yea my bad. sorry for snapping back. I tend to get on the defensive bro, no worries.

Im running an amazing 80% ROI at the $22's on UB. This is over 52 SnG's which is not a huge sample but I think it's big enough to prove I can win consitently which I am proud of. I've had a lot of good fortune over this run but I still think over the long haul 50% is completely possible.

Its really not. I'm not saying your a bad player, but I had a 59% ITM and a 78% ROI for a long time. Its easy to get those numbers in a 50 SnG block. Play about 300 and its almost impossible, trust me I tried. Over 373 SnG's, I am running around a 40% ROI. You keep forgetting its not all about your play. Varience will hit eventually. You will have 1 month where you think you forgot how to play. AJ loses to AQ with an J high flop. That one card flush kills you every time. The only way to maintain a decent ROI is to not lose your head when this happens. If you do on tilt, it only makes the numbers drop further.

Did you mean: variance

No I was talking about something else.

Originally Posted by Staple Gun

Im running an amazing 80% ROI at the $22's on UB. This is over 52 SnG's which is not a huge sample but I think it's big enough to prove I can win consitently which I am proud of. I've had a lot of good fortune over this run but I still think over the long haul 50% is completely possible.

Over the past 100 10+1s iv played, im running at like 34.1% ITM and 3% ROI. Im a pretty good monkey too. Just wait till u run into variance. VARIANCE BITCH!

Originally Posted by ihategnomes

Its really not. I'm not saying your a bad player, but I had a 59% ITM and a 78% ROI for a long time. Its easy to get those numbers in a 50 SnG block. Play about 300 and its almost impossible, trust me I tried. Over 373 SnG's, I am running around a 40% ROI. You keep forgetting its not all about your play. Varience will hit eventually. You will have 1 month where you think you forgot how to play. AJ loses to AQ with an J high flop. That one card flush kills you every time. The only way to maintain a decent ROI is to not lose your head when this happens. If you do on tilt, it only makes the numbers drop further.

I have had short streaks like this but my longest OOTM streak was like 7 (I am very lucky thus far I know). And I know it will get worse but I still think 50% ROI is entirely possible. If I could even achieve 40% then all the better players than me would get 50% pretty easy.

Your ROI will suffer when one day every time you get it headsup, your opponent sucks out on u every hand. You dont get a first for like 19 tourneys, even though you consistently maintain >35% ITM. THAT is also variance.

Im sorry, but a 50% ROI is nearly impossible at even the 11's. A lot of people run hot for 100-200 sng's and have a 40 or so ROI but long run it is not possible. I revanmped my sng game recently and started from scratch and and started at the 11's about 100 games about 40% ROI, then moved to the 22"s and had about a 35% ROI after 100 or so games, it dropped to 22% and the 33's and now at the 55's im running about 17%. THe only way I see a 40+ ROI over the long haul is at maybe a 1-3 dollar sng's with total donks. I think people saying a 50+ ROI is possible have not played enough games to really back this up.

It strongly depends on what site you are playing on.. Starting chips, blind level increments, and player skills are going to have a very strong affect on your stats. At a party skin 45% ROI is impossible to achieve, period. I play mainly party skins and would say crushing the game at the highest limits for regular SnG's (200$) would be high teens.

Yeah I think your hourly rate divided by your buy in would be a statistic that can be used to compare accross different blind structures. HROI if you will...

sounds like a sore subject, but i'm embarking on a 500 sng quest on party at the 30+3$ 3-table sng's. I'll post my results in here every 100. so far doing really well, but I'm sure the variance is really going to affect these one's as you have to get thru many more coinflips per tourny. If all go's well i may just keep on playing these.

Good luck bud, I am very interested to hear about your results. What is your time frame?

The structure on UB is much better to achieve consistent finishes because you start with 1500 chips and blinds go up every 10 minutes.

As for variance, I think variance drops slightly for people who play LAGG (those who play it well anyways) because 80% of your chips are coming from pots without a showdown. I have played a few SnG's recently where I never had anything near a coinflip until I was HU with an 8-1 chip lead or so. Pushing people around on the bubble is where I make most of my chips, and this has nothing to do with whether JJ holds up against AQ.

I have no doubt that a good player could achieve at least a 50% ROI over thousands of SnG's at UB, if they only 1-2 table. Im sure a lot of people's RI suffers because they multi-table, which is ok if it increases your hourly rate.

im a noob and gotta ask, when you say ROI i assume you are using your averages... invest in 5+1 and u take it down for 45$ is your ROI 700%?

I've run +45 and -35 over a few hundred 215s.

I think a proper sample size would be nearling 10000 sngs.

-'rilla

Samples are never big enough

Originally Posted by Staple Gun

Samples are never big enough

THAT'S WHAT YOUR MOM SAID!

-'rilla

I suck at sit n go tourneys. I get to board siting there for so long. Ring games are for me. Preferably limit games so I don't get out of control. I get impatient.

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

I think a proper sample size would be nearling 10000 sngs.

It's pretty straightforward to calculate confidence intervals on the statistic if you have mean and variance information.

10K seems like a lot...

Originally Posted by koolmoe

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

I think a proper sample size would be nearling 10000 sngs.

It's pretty straightforward to calculate confidence intervals on the statistic if you have mean and variance information.

10K seems like a lot...

I know theres a way to do this mathematically, such as calculate the odds that someone with 50% ITM after 500 SnG's could go the next 500 at 40% or whatever. I dont know how to do it though, can someone who does please explain this?

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Originally Posted by Staple Gun

Samples are never big enough

THAT'S WHAT YOUR MOM SAID!

-'rilla

Is 4.5k posts a big enough sample to determine someone is homosexual?

Originally Posted by Staple Gun

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Originally Posted by Staple Gun

Samples are never big enough

THAT'S WHAT YOUR MOM SAID!

-'rilla

Is 4.5k posts a big enough sample to determine someone is homosexual?

nh

-'rilla

Originally Posted by Staple Gun

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Originally Posted by Staple Gun

Samples are never big enough

THAT'S WHAT YOUR MOM SAID!

-'rilla

Is 4.5k posts a big enough sample to determine someone is homosexual?

lol

Originally Posted by DavSimon

The biggest problem I have with Irieguy is that he says his post is opinion based on data....that he has no interest in proving his statemens. Then he proceeds to state things as fact.....because he is the authority on the subject. He acknowledges contradictory data, but says he doesn't care about that data because it does not support my conclusions or conflicts with the data he chooses to pay attention to.

Anyway, it all sounds impressive and seems legit but I am far from being convinced....just because an intelligent guy says some impressive things (albeit snotty and superior sounding at times) claiming supportive data does not inspire cofidence in the validity of his claims.
Why beleive him....why believe Soupie....why believe Radashack or myself?? Over time you get to know people....begin to trust them, yes even online you can develop a pretty decent picture of someone's character over a long period of time. I suppose if I got to know him through his posts over the last few years I would be able to more readily accept his claims. In the end, perhaps my exposure to a few truly exceptional people has clouded my vision.

As for "crushing" the game I suppose over 45% would be considered crushing it. I would be lying if I didn't say Irieguy's post didn't worry me a bit. I don't really have an explanation for my unusually high stats, I suppose I have been on a 10 month long "heater" I just hope I can keep it up and prove him wrong. The funny thing is....I had no idea they were considered above "normal" until Mike and Soupie said something - I guess that sometimes if you don't know there is a standard then you can't unconsciously conform to it.

hmmm
http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/643/davsimonse9.png

lol

Now there's a bump - more than 1.5 years between the last post on the original thread and the bump, is that a record?

thats what i was going for.

but really i saw that and i had to posts the sharkscope results.

45%??? lolllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll

He could have better results on a different site.

hmmm...

BCeagles23

Joined: 10 Mar 2007
Posts: 7