AK pre-flop choices with different stack sizes

Having 16 big blinds in a recent home game tournament, I raised 3 big blinds in middle position with AK. A late position player 3-bet up to 8 big blinds leaving him just 5 big blinds (I had him covered). I figured the choices were either stop and go (call and shove on the flop regardless of what comes out) or just shove pre-flop. I shoved pre-flop.


Folding AK pre-flop with 16 big blinds wasn't an option.
Of course I can sometimes fold AK pre-flop with 100 big blinds.
It gets kind of complicated with stack sizes that are in-between. What is the smallest stack size you've ever had when folding AK pre-flop?

I actually like the stop n go there cuz it gives bad players the chance to make horrible folds.
I might be able to find a fold with 25ish bbs if there was crazy action.

I've open folded AK at bubble with under 10bb before. I was short rolled at the time and the game was a ticket only event; cashing the bubble was worth around $50 iirc, comparable to my BR at the time, which I wasn't prepared to gamble with AK considering I'd been through a qualifier and of course many hours of this game just to get this far. I went on to finish 2nd for a $4k payout, so I'm never going to see that as a mistake, even if I know it's an easy shove 99.99% of the time.

Generally, I think I need 30bb+ to consider folding AK, in all but extreme cases of BR management. Or at the very least have notes on villain that have me confident folding is best.

Originally Posted by chardrian

I actually like the stop n go there cuz it gives bad players the chance to make horrible folds.

I think you're right, giving people a chance to make a bad mistake is probably better in this example.
I guess I'm used to shoving because I don't want to be the one making the mistake. For example, I don't want to put in between 1/4th and 1/3rd and then fold. I'd rather just shove pre and take the guesswork out. If it's less than 1/4th (for both of us of course) then I can fold if the flop texture is bad.

Originally Posted by chardrian

I might be able to find a fold with 25ish bbs if there was crazy action.

If there is something crazy like a 4-bet in front of me then I can fold easily with 100 bbs. I can also do it with 50 but it isn't quite as easy.
It would be cool to see some examples of it happening with less than 50. I know we have examples here in the forums but I'm not sure how best to search for them.

Originally Posted by OngBonga

Generally, I think I need 30bb+ to consider folding AK, in all but extreme cases of BR management. Or at the very least have notes on villain that have me confident folding is best.

Yeah, if there is a lot of action by conservative villains then it can be done but it's hard.

Out of interest is there any reason you're opening 3bb with 16bb? Seems bad to me in general. In this circumstance you should be getting it in and doing so on the flop is just strange.

It's worth looking at flop textures that people might be tempted to make awful folds on and compare this to how much of a mistake it actually is. Most stuff people may find a fold with on flops is stuff you're beating anyway. No one is folding TT for tiny bets on a Q42tt board for example. Boards they may (rarely) find folds on are definitely much stronger for you. I'd imagine people are folding really tiny amounts in both circumstances though if I'm being honest so the mistake probably isn't that big either way.

In a home game you should know the person well enough to know what they do in spots like this. If they're nits it can be an easy fold, if they're any sort of competent you're getting it in pre and just being happy.

Originally Posted by ImSavy

Out of interest is there any reason you're opening 3bb with 16bb? Seems bad to me in general. In this circumstance you should be getting it in and doing so on the flop is just strange.

Sometimes I just shove instead of raising 3bb here, not sure why I chose one over the other. This is towards the bottom end of the stack size range for not open shoving. In other words, 15ish or less is just an open shove. When I have between 15ish and 25ish then I can do either an open shove or a standard raise. When I have more than 25ish then I like to do a standard raise.

I meant min raising rather than open shoving. There's even room for developing a flatting range I'd imagine but that's complicated and something I've never looked into myself. Like everything I suppose it mostly depends on your whole game plan and image & what villains are doing.

Tbf in a home game dynamic I'm not sure how this makes things differ & same for if you have larger amounts of people playing. There should almost definitely be a points where you are varying opening amounts though.

All this being said I was never good at poker, never played live often & I haven't played in a year or so.

Originally Posted by ImSavy

I meant min raising rather than open shoving.

Ah, min raising. Yeah, we were late enough where 3x was a bit rich. Sometimes at that level I just open with 2 1/4x or 2 1/2x but I rarely go all the way down to 2x. However, it depends on who is behind me. There are a few players in the game who have no concept of bet size so I can and do accomplish the exact same thing with 2x as with 3x but I didn't have those players behind me that night.

I have folded AK with 25bb in 9handed when I opened from UTG+1 for 2.2bb then LAG from UTG+2 minraised, call from BU (he was solid player) and reraise from BB (total nit). Actually it was satellite for 109$ tourney and we were near the bubble.

if you have no FE pre, ALWAYS stop and go postflop. Versus weak players it's not close.