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Zoom NL5 8Ts 2 pairs

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  1. #1

    Default Zoom NL5 8Ts 2 pairs

    I think I played it correctly, that's why I'm asking if there's another way I could have played it. Should I fold to his reraise on the turn?

    PokerStars Zoom No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (9 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com/

    Button ($7.20)
    SB ($3.07)
    Hero (BB) ($4.60)
    UTG ($4.48)
    UTG+1 ($6.85)
    MP1 ($4.21)
    MP2 ($3.46)
    MP3 ($4.39)
    CO ($5.05)

    Preflop: Hero is BB with 8, 10
    2 folds, MP1 raises to $0.15, 1 fold, MP3 calls $0.15, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.10

    Flop: ($0.47) K, 8, J (3 players)
    Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks

    Turn: ($0.47) 10 (3 players)
    Hero bets $0.29, 1 fold, MP3 raises to $0.66, Hero calls $0.37

    River: ($1.79) 6 (2 players)
    Hero checks, MP3 bets $0.89, Hero calls $0.89

    Total pot: $3.57 | Rake: $0.15
  2. #2
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Please post your thoughts on your Villains every time you post a hand.

    Even the most basic observations can be linked to reads and ranges with a little guesswork. We'll expect to be surprised by our wrong guesses a lot, but we'll learn from those surprises and get better.

    ***
    Personally, I'd fold it PRE in almost all cases and not even worry about this spot.

    You're first to act of 3, and - I can't stress this enough - this is a spot to play cautiously until you have reads on Villains. Being OOP reduces your ability to get value from your hands, and you need more info up front to compensate.

    ***
    Ultimately, my goal is to get you to turn your attention FIRST to your Villains, and then to the cards.
    First describe your opponents, then outsmart them. That's the strategy.
  3. #3
    Razvan729's Avatar
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    MP3 showed up w/ JT. AQ/79/TT would raise more on turn. Fold river. Whay can You beat?!
    All posts are just my own opinion about a hand or a general situation... not advices on how you should play...
  4. #4
    This is NL5, I'm playing zoom and I don't have a hud. I can't treat everyone as a regular who thinks on how to make every move. If I were playing NL200 then things change completely, but at NL5 I have seen lots of players who at the turn might think a king is the nuts. Given that I don't have a HUD and that in this condition I need to beat the average players at zoom I think my play was right. If you don't think the same please write a convincing argument. Preflop I had to put 10c into a 43c pot (already substracting rake) that means 4:1 odds and a hand like a suited gapper flops very well. I think the preflop move was correct because I would be able to win a lot of money from villian when I flop strong hands. I know its tough when I don't have info on players, but that were the conditions in which I played the hand, so I think I can't assume villian will always have a strong holding
  5. #5
    i think its an easy fold pre given that its zoom. just move on and play with a better hand. on the turn i'd fold to the raise AQ and Q9 have made a straight , Ax Qx 9x,7x all have straight draws, 88 tt andJJ all have you crushed.This just looks like it could lose you a big pot. HEM2 and i presume PT4 work on zoom as well
  6. #6
    Razvan729's Avatar
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    MP3 was last to act and he checked so he has no king. Even morone donț raise that turn w/ Tx so his raising range is 2pair+. Your T8 is the bottom of his range. Your guess that he has just TP on turn is wrong at any stake 90% of times. If You hâd KJ i'd Be thinking about calling turn
    All posts are just my own opinion about a hand or a general situation... not advices on how you should play...
  7. #7
    Razvan729's Avatar
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    Yes, both HEM and PT work on PS Zoom. You just need a good computer/laptop (fast i mean, good CPU)
    All posts are just my own opinion about a hand or a general situation... not advices on how you should play...
  8. #8
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matiusaa View Post
    This is NL5, I'm playing zoom and I don't have a hud.
    :/
    Reads don't come from HUDs. Reads come from observations.

    I fully accept that playing zoom makes this more complicated. However, you DO have information on Villain. You have less information than you might have in a ring game, but you still have information.

    I'll help you use every piece of information you have to your advantage. I just want to get you to realize that the tiny bits of information you do have amount to a good deal of insight, when properly examined.

    Quote Originally Posted by matiusaa View Post
    I can't treat everyone as a regular who thinks on how to make every move. If I were playing NL200 then things change completely, but at NL5 I have seen lots of players who at the turn might think a king is the nuts.
    See, this is the beginning of a read.

    Describe the average player at zoom. I don't play zoom, so I'm ignorant of the player pool. If I did play on zoom, and we were to compare our notes about the player pool, then we'd both likely learn a lot about what we could do to better exploit that player pool.

    Poker is a game of outsmarting your opponents. You start by observing them, then link observations to loose statements about their ranges. Finally, you make a guess as to their actual range, taking into account all the 'soft' reads.

    "A lot of players" overvalue TP hands on wet boards. THAT is valuable information.
    Unfortunately, even if Villain is overvaluing his hand OTT, this board is so wet that there is plenty in his (assumed) range which is much better than top-pair.
    I wouldn't mind the call if you had a flush draw, but I think you're failing to consider what other non-bluffy hands Villain might have in his range.

    If you can justify a call OTT, you're pretty hard up facing the bet OTR. I think you will see some wins, but so many losses that you need to fold here.

    Quote Originally Posted by matiusaa View Post
    Given that I don't have a HUD and that in this condition I need to beat the average players at zoom I think my play was right. If you don't think the same please write a convincing argument.
    I might fully agree with you if you described the average players at zoom. As it stands, I have only guesses as to whom you're up against, and I answered your question, given that lack of read.

    I would fold PRE and not even think about this spot.

    Suited 1-gappers (S1Gs) are simply not as strong as all that. They are speculative or marginal hands that are best used to have SOME equity post flop when you use them to steal the blinds and the blinds call. Playing S1Gs from any position but the BTN when it's folded to you (at FR) is usually burning money UNLESS you have some reads.

    When you have reads, you choose to play in a more exploitable way in order to exploit someone else.

    When villains play in an exploitable way w/o reads... here, fishy, fishy.

    ***
    The strength of the S1Gs is in the ability to catch straights and (to a lesser extent) flushes. One major difficulty in playing S1G's is that even the best players tend to get nearly 0 EV from them when played from late position in HU pots. This is anecdotal evidence of how marginal these hands are.

    When you play marginal hands, you want to have everything going for you: position, initiative, awareness, etc.
    There can be money to be earned with hands like T8s, but it's almost never coming from the blinds in multi-way pots.

    Quote Originally Posted by matiusaa View Post
    Preflop I had to put 10c into a 43c pot (already substracting rake) that means 4:1 odds and a hand like a suited gapper flops very well. I think the preflop move was correct because I would be able to win a lot of money from villian when I flop strong hands.
    The problem is that you're right, but I think you're overestimating how often you will flop a 'strong hand' and underestimating the times when you will flop a mediocre hand that is hard to get value from.

    In this hand, you called, thinking the good pot odds would help compensate for your weak hands, and give you a chance to get a big pot when you flop a big draw.

    However, here, you flopped middle pair with a weak kicker. I'm assuming you would x/f OTF. If you'd be calling a bit here, then calling PRE was almost definitely a leak in your play. You didn't call PRE for mid-pair/weak kicker. That's not winning big enough pots to compensate for all the folding you'll be doing on so many flops which you miss.

    The difficulty here is that the flop checked around, and now OTT, you get 2-pair. This is a dangerous spot in poker. Warning sirens should be blazing in your head right now. The adrenaline of catching 2-pair is severely mitigated by the checked around flop, and the fact that you face 2 villains.

    Quote Originally Posted by matiusaa View Post
    I know its tough when I don't have info on players, but that were the conditions in which I played the hand, so I think I can't assume villian will always have a strong holding
    Absolutely. Don't assume Villain is always strong, but don't assume he's always weak, either. The reality is that it's some mix of strong hands, bluff hands and random button mashing. We just want to get a feel for how much of each.

    more information = better advice
    no information = random advice

    What are your general player pool reads?
    What does each Villain's starting chip stack tell you?
    Even if all you provide is this info, it will yield you much better advice in this thread.

    ***
    If you're overwhelmed with putting ANY reads on your villains, then you may want to consider stopping with the zoom (just for a while) and move to "normal" tables.
    Obv. play the game you like.
    I suggest it because you seem to be approaching poker as a game of cards and not a game of people. Obv. it is both. I think you will find you improve at a much faster pace if you switch your focus onto the people.
  9. #9
    spoonitnow's Avatar
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    Pre-flop: The rake at 5nl makes it really hard to call here profitably. You need a little bit better conditions like an extra caller, a smaller initial raise size or a better position to make this something that looks appealing.

    Flop: This is a pretty standard place to check through.

    Turn: Good job with the value bet. I think calling this small raise is fine considering that any random Villain could be raising something like a pair + OESD here. The only issue is that you're going to have to decide on a check/call on the river, so what you should probably do before calling the turn is decide how large of a river bet you're willing to call so that the decision is made ahead of time.

    River: He bets barely more than half-pot on a card that most likely couldn't have helped him, so if you're ever going to call this river, this is a river spot where you should be calling.
  10. #10
    Can't say I'm playing this differently. I'd probably call pre too, but I know I probably shouldn't.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong

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