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How do I construct Villains bluffing range?

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  1. #1

    Default How do I construct Villains bluffing range?

    I first give them a range of hands

    then break them into value range and bluffing range

    the value range for example on the flop after villain bets would be

    top pair top kicker, sets, 2 pairs ,

    and bluffing range would be like any 2 cards? overcards with draws and stuff like that?

    trying to construct bluffing ranges for villains but am unsure how to select his bluffing range after I have marked his value
    It doesnt seem right that he would bluff anything thats not in his value but idk was just asking incase someone knew
  2. #2
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Do not assume any Villain has a bluffing range until you see objective proof thereof.
    Once you see that, you can back track what the line they took was and take a note.
    (To be fair, it's not that hard to spot a Villain playing similarly to yourself, and if you see someone playing positionally aware, then it's not a hard stretch to think they may be playing villains as individuals, too. If so, you can assume they have a bluffing range, just don't assume it's the entirety of their range.)

    There's not a single way villain's bluff. They all do it poorly at the micros (if not, they wont be at the micros for long), and each villain's leaks are different.
    I've counseled you as to how to change your range by either merging or polarizing it when villains fold or call "too much," but we haven't at all talked about what is the "right" amount and what is "too much."

    We need to dig into some heavier math and look at poker from a game theory perspective to learn what does Game Theory Optimal (GTO) mean, and how can we find what are our GTO plays, and when should we use GTO and when should we not. That's a lot to take in, and while it's useful, it's a bit high-end for the micros. You don't need that thorough an understanding of GTO plays to beat the micros.
    You just need to acquire the discipline to play a straight-forward, "face up" game of ABC poker. Seriously, the amount of crushing you can do at the micros by just having sensible pre-flop ranges and value betting when you hit the board is surprising.


    Remember that you do not bet the same ranges against different Villains. So they may not be, either. Just because they bluffed seat 2 doesn't mean they'll bluff you. Prob they will, cause you can (hopefully) make some disciplined folds OTR when you're not bluffing, but pay attention. Your own play should vary significantly from villain to villain. Maybe theirs does, too.

    Just 'cause you b/f doesn't mean you were bluffing. You may bet a draw as a semi-bluff, indifferent to whether Villain folds or calls, but if they raise and change the drawing and implied odds, then that may no longer be a good spot to draw, so you may choose to fold. Most villains will think, "I knew he was bluffing," but you weren't exactly bluffing. You were just playing a smart +EV line and Villain either had you beat or outplayed you post. It happens. Don't feel like you need to never be outplayed. You get them and they get you, sometimes. Playing a straight-up ABC game will have you winning more than they do.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  3. #3
    I understand what your saying, for a beginner or weaker poker player its better to focus on the basics and fundamentals before moving on, i just feel like players at the micros alot of them are folding whenever I have a hand and i feel like i need to play with a bit more theory to get the edge against them. micro is full of people who bluff its gross.
  4. #4
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    I understand what your saying, for a beginner or weaker poker player its better to focus on the basics and fundamentals before moving on
    Literally everyone at the micros is a weak, beginner player. Otherwise, they wouldn't be at the micros. If they're any good at all, they'll be moving up and out like rocket.

    i just feel like players at the micros alot of them are folding whenever I have a hand
    Awesome. Bet wider (polarized) ranges so they fold not only when you have a hand, but also when you don't have a hand.

    Remember that any player will only have 1 pair+ about 1/3 of the time when not starting with a pair. You bet - they fold - doesn't mean you pushed them off an actual hand. Just means they have rags (that probably should have folded PRE, anyway. Tight play = money at the micros)

    ***
    They're your feelings. They're not "just" your feelings.
    As a scientist, I would deride someone for such drivel as I just said. In poker, though, you gotta train and trust your gut.

    and i feel like i need to play with a bit more theory to get the edge against them.
    I don't think there's any evidence to back this up, and I think there's a wealth of evidence which suggests the opposite is true.

    You just need to play tight pre-flop and play face-up post flop.
    Bet more with big hands. Bet less with small hands. You think they'll see right through you, but they're barely even noticing you. Their assumptions are very similar to your assumptions when you first broach a new topic with us.
    You assume that asking "How do I correctly play this hand?" can be answered with no information about Villains. (Again, no judgement from me. I started in the same spot.)
    You play 75o. You play weak, suited 3-gappers. You bet too small when you have the goods and call big river bets with flushes on paired boards.
    That's exactly how they're thinking.
    None of that is necessarily bad in the greater world of poker. It's just terribad at the micros. You don't need to "mix it up" against people who don't even notice your normal.

    If you see someone who you think is being tricky with you, stop yourself. Anyone can get hit over the head with the deck from time to time. It probably doesn't mean they're pushing at you, specifically. It's just variance.

    micro is full of people who bluff its gross.
    You misspelled awesome.

    Once you know they bluff, make notes. Try to estimate their bluff %-age. How many hands in their range would they bet as a bluff vs. how many hands in their range they bet for value.
    If your pot odds are greater than their % of non-bluffing hands in their range... you can profitably call with A-high.
    E.g. if they bet a full PSB OTR, and if you call, you need to win the hand at least 1/(1+1+1) = 1/3 of the time.
    ONLY 1/3 of the time!
    If they bluff more often than 1/3 of their range, then you can call and print monies all day... even though you expect to lose more than half the time you call.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  5. #5
    thank you for all the feedback this information is very valuable and eye opening, I'm realizing I just need to play solid basic poker, Im going to post some mistakes i made earlier if you want to give your opinion on them would be appreciated
  6. #6
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Please keep posting your ideas and your hands.

    I hope you're enjoying the conversations. I am.

    Just keep in mind that you may someday be better at poker than I am. I'm passable and can crush the micros, but then I got a real job and I stopped playing poker like a career and that pretty much stopped my growth in the game.

    I'm happy to help you as long as it's helpful, but feel free to consider us equals in these conversations.
    If you keep at the studies, you'll probably surpass me in a less than a year.

    Here's hoping it's sooner than later!
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  7. #7
    You really do have to pay attention to showdowns to get better at constructing ranges, especially when it comes to peoples' bluffing ranges. Most people can bluff complete garbage on the flop when they raised and got called, but do they keep on betting? If you see someone double or triple barrel AK when it misses, make a note, because chances are they don't like losing with AK. If you see someone check/calling the nut flush draw, make a note, because chances are they don't bluff with it when perhaps they should. If you know a villain likes to call down his draws, then when he raises it probably means top pair isn't good. But if villain likes to raise his draws, top pair can stand more heat. How a villain plays his draws can help you to play your value hands better.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong

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