Select Page
Poker Forum
Over 1,282,000 Posts!
Poker ForumSmall Stakes NL Hold'em

Calling all MojoMonkeys and OngBongas, was this bluff bad?

Results 1 to 35 of 35
  1. #1

    Default Calling all MojoMonkeys and OngBongas, was this bluff bad?

    Villain stats VPIP 53/PFR 6/AF 2 over 30 hands


    PokerStars, Hold'em No Limit - $0.01/$0.02 - 9 players
    Replay this hand on Upswing Poker

    UTG: $1.59 (80 bb)
    UTG+1: $3.13 (157 bb)
    MP: $0.71 (36 bb)
    MP+1 (Hero): $1.20 (60 bb)
    LP: $2.40 (120 bb)
    CO: $1.09 (55 bb)
    BU: $2.41 (121 bb)
    SB: $0.82 (41 bb)
    BB: $2.00 (100 bb)

    Pre-Flop: ($0.03) Hero is MP+1 with 9 J
    3 players fold, Hero raises to $0.06, 2 players fold, BTN calls $0.06, 2 players fold

    Flop: ($0.15) 2 K 5 (2 players)
    Hero bets $0.08, BTN calls $0.08

    Turn: ($0.31) K (2 players)
    Hero bets $0.20, BTN calls $0.20

    River: ($0.71) T (2 players)
    Hero bets $0.86 (all-in), BTN calls $0.86

    Total pot: $2.43 (Rake: $0.09)

    Showdown:
    MP+1 (Hero) shows 9 J (a pair of Kings)
    (Equity - Pre-Flop: 68%, Flop: 27%, Turn: 36%, River: 0%)

    BU shows T 2 (two pair, Kings and Tens)
    (Equity - Pre-Flop: 32%, Flop: 73%, Turn: 64%, River: 100%)

    BU wins $2.34


    I raised from MP, and BU calls. I think my range can look something like ATs+,88+, and some suited broadways, I had very tight image and had not been in a pot with this villain yet.I was shorts-stacked. Villains range looks weaker than mine when he flats on the button.On the flop I think he could have hit a piece of the board, I think he can hit bottom or middle pair with much of his range, even the king but his range is weaker so more likely weaker pairs,pocket-pairs,some suited stuff that has missed,Ace-highs. I c-bet and he calls. OTT comes another king and I pickup a flush-draw, I decide to continue the story and he calls again, So now I am thinking he has alot of middle or bottom pairs maybe A2,A5, 34, some weaker pocket pairs like 33.44.66.77,88. , Its possible he has the king but since hes a calling fish I think I can try and represent either a King, or a high pocket pair,on the river I miss my flush and go all in. He turned a T for 2pair and calls. Was it a bad bluff ? I didnt have too many hands on this player, just because they're vpip is high does that necessarily mean they are calling stations? idk I kind of feel like it was just unlucky river and my hand looked strong enough to get a fold sometimes also I thought I had fold equity versus most of his range that had bottom and middle pair once the T came on the river. I didnt put him on T2 but hey... just trying to work on my skills I dont bluff often.
    Last edited by DonkeyBets; 02-05-2020 at 04:34 PM.
  2. #2
    It's bad because of your stack size. You're left with little option but to shove the river. If you have a full stack, you can make a standard 50c river bet and fold when raised. Your short stack cost you 36-odd cents, or 18bb. A solid player can have Ax or 88, and fold to this river shove, so this wouldn't be the worst bluff against many players, but not this guy.

    This guy is not the kind of villain we want to be running three-street bluffs against. If you didn't know that before the hand, you do now. Make a note and just value bet this guy in future.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  3. #3
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    9,132
    Location
    St Louis, MO
    Sorry to leave you hanging. I've been sick and haven't gotten a full night's sleep in almost a week.

    I'll be back in the forum once I'm human again.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  4. #4
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    9,132
    Location
    St Louis, MO
    "Was it a bad bluff"

    YES

    why?

    "hes a calling fish"

    DON'T BLUFF THE CALLING STATIONS

    "just because they're vpip is high does that necessarily mean they are calling stations?"
    No, it doesn't. However, the fact that you don't KNOW this villain is capable of folding to a bluff, you don't bluff them.
    This is the micros, you're probably safer to assume the population read is "calling station" than to assume they're aware of your range, hand or betting habits.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  5. #5
    What we learned about villain...

    He calls T2s on the button vs a MP raise, which probably means he calls every suited hand,
    He calls flop with bottom pair vs PFR on Kxx,
    He continues with bottom pair+flush draw on paired turn,
    He calls off stack vs an overbet shove with a bad second pair, which he might believe to be stronger than it is because both his cards have paired (though he only plays the ten).

    At every street, this villain has shown himself to be a very bad player who we should not target with bluffs. Now we know this, we adjust and target him with value bets. Giving him our stack this hand is +ev if we get to play another 100 hands vs this guy.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  6. #6
    Let's pretend you're the villain, asking for advice on the hand.

    Fold pre, fold flop, fold turn, fold river.
    ez game.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  7. #7
    Thank you guys for the feedback, hope you get well soon MojoMonkey. I will refrain from bluffing high vpip and selectively only try to bluff Tight-weak players but only with proper stack sizes as you mentioned here.Solid advice thank you
    Last edited by DonkeyBets; 02-06-2020 at 03:53 PM.
  8. #8
    You didn't plan the hand very well either. By planning the hand, I mean betting such that we're not having to make overbets to get the money in. On the river, you had to overbet to shove. Had you bet a little more on the flop and turn, then your river shove would be under the pot. That's a more natural line to take with value hands. It wouldn't have made a difference here, largely because you were bluffing, and also because villain is really bad, but if you had AK vs 99 against a reasonably skilled player, for example, you might have got a fold on the river with this line that would have called if villain had better pot odds at the river.

    This is another reason to be at least 100bb deep. You don't really have to think about this so much when you're deeper, because it's less likely you'll get all of the money in anyway, even if you want to.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    You didn't plan the hand very well either. By planning the hand, I mean betting such that we're not having to make overbets to get the money in. On the river, you had to overbet to shove. Had you bet a little more on the flop and turn, then your river shove would be under the pot. That's a more natural line to take with value hands. It wouldn't have made a difference here, largely because you were bluffing, and also because villain is really bad, but if you had AK vs 99 against a reasonably skilled player, for example, you might have got a fold on the river with this line that would have called if villain had better pot odds at the river.

    This is another reason to be at least 100bb deep. You don't really have to think about this so much when you're deeper, because it's less likely you'll get all of the money in anyway, even if you want to.
    Very interesting stuff. I have a question though, isn't overbetting on the river giving villain worse pot odds to call? I don't know alot about giving villain specific odds on the river like with all the bluff:value ratios OTR and how they tie in with balance. On this river we are giving villain roughly 2:1 , if the pot was large and we put less into the pot that would give him better pot odds to call? I google search and it says 1 bluff to ever 3 values so is that what you mean? we will be giving him those odds if we bet differently with a bigger stack against a competent opponent?
  10. #10
    I have a question though, isn't overbetting on the river giving villain worse pot odds to call?
    Yes, which is bad. We either want villain to call, or we want him to think we want him to call. Also, if we're overbetting when we bluff, we need to be successful more often.

    I don't know alot about giving villain specific odds on the river...
    Frankly, neither do I. I just know that when I shove river, I usually want to be called, so I prefer the pot odds to be good for villain, not bad.

    On this river we are giving villain roughly 2:1 ,
    He'd be getting 2:1 if your bet was pot size. It's an overbet, so his pot odds are worse than 2:1, though not by much because the bet isn't much over the pot.

    ...if the pot was large and we put less into the pot that would give him better pot odds to call?
    Yes. It also means our bluff doesn't need to be successful as often to make money.

    If we bet pot as a bluff at river with a hand that never wins at showdown, we need him to fold 50% of his range to break even. If we bet half the pot, we only need 33% folds.

    I google search and it says 1 bluff to ever 3 values so is that what you mean?
    I'm not sure where you're getting that but it's far too simplistic. Your bluff frequency should depend on villain's range and tendencies, not a google search. If villain is passive and folding too much, bluff more, at least until he adjusts. If villain is a terrible calling station (such as this one), bluff less.

    1 bluff for every 3 value bets might be an ok average, but that's a general figure and not useful when thinking about a specific hand.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  11. #11
    Yes, which is bad.
    I mean, we want villain to call the worst pot odds he'll call with, at least when we're value betting. It's just that the worse pot odds villain has at river, the less likely he is to call. That's fine if we're bluffing, but we do need to get called at river when we're value betting, and we do need to be balanced (not only overbetting when we bluff), so we don't want to be finding ourselves in position where we're overbetting river unless we know villain is an idiot and will call regardless.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  12. #12
    ahh...okay, I am understanding. Thank you for the responses
  13. #13
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    9,132
    Location
    St Louis, MO
    Thanks for the good wishes. I'm a little under-slept, but other than that, I'm all good.
    It's getting late on a Friday, too, so woohoo for a restful weekend.


    My only thought is that I agree with the whole tail end of the conversation, but I'd add that while it's important, it's not that important. I did some calcs on it a while back and there's not much to think about to size your bets accordingly to get a good shove size OTR. If you're betting 2/3 - 3/4 PSB on each street, it's going to work out for you most of the time. If the pot starts out big because a lot of people paid PRE, then folded, it can be a little too easy to get stacks in, IMO. So in those cases, you don't necessarily have to go bet/bet/bet to get stacks in.

    It's not like you want to get stacks in on every hand. You just want to have the option to do so when you have your best hands without it looking like all the sudden you're acting funny with your big bets.

    Though, again, it probably doesn't matter as much at 2NL. Villains are just not that aware of your patterns.


    As for the whole 1 bluff for every 3 value bets, it's hogwash without more context. Like ong said, it's too simplistic.
    Frankly, any piece of poker advice that comes across as "just do this" should always raise some alarms to you.
    Literally everything in this game is situational, so a rule that claims to apply to all situations is never going to be best.

    I mean... "open raise to 3x +1 for each limper PRE" falls into that category, doesn't it. Why do people say to do that? What is the reasoning? What might be some circumstances that change that rule?

    Here's one: in high-level tournaments, the playing field will adjust to opening with smaller bets, because their stack sizes are low due to increasing blinds. While those weaker raises would not be respected in other situations, the fact that everyone is short-stacked means they cannot call the weak raises with wider ranges. They could if they had a deeper stack to cover the variance, but they don't and taking those chances is likely to end up with a downswing that effectively eliminates them from the event.

    So there's a lot of reasons that the opening sizes change in that case, and the simple rule to raise 3x +1 only holds because you're effectively playing a deep stack game all the time.

    Here's another one: If when you're on the BTN, the blinds fold too much, then you can start stealing with a wider range. That will put your stack at greater risk post-flop when you get there with one of your weakest hands. IF (big if) the blinds continue to fold too much when you min-raise the BTN to steal, then you can offset your need to play as well post-flop by risking less to get there.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  14. #14
    as Ong said .

    Fold pre - relatively shit cards and likly to be out of position the whole hand . what are you doing if you get raised ? should be folding.

    check fold flop - you missed , theres over card which hits his range and all his Ax,Kx,Qx,JT+,2x, and 5x have you beat and shit like 64 , a4, a3,34 all picked up draws that hes never folding. save your money for when you hit top end of your range against him and hes happy to keep calling your bets down with his mid pairs .

    turn
    - meh check fold still - we're drawing to a shitty flush on a paired board which he could still beat you on if you hit with his k2,k5, 22 and 55 hands - its a shitty position so why build the pot.

    river - check fold - calling station is never folding.

    don't be obsessed with bluffing at 2nl , 2nl is about taking stacks with your monsters decent pots with medium hands and losing the least with weak hands, Playing shit hands,out of position won't accomplish any of those.

    As for stack size , by not rebuying to 100bb you are announcing that you are a fish afraid how much you will lose , rather than trying to win the most that you can
  15. #15
    Keith is better than I am, but I'm not so quick to check/fold this flop when I do raise and get called by the button. This flop hits our range more than villain's, and we only have jack high. This is a clear cbet for me, we definitely want villain to have the option to fold. If we're checking this flop, we definitely should not be opening J9s. We should only raise this pre if we get called wide enough for us to profitably bluff Axx and Kxx flops. But we also don't want villain to be calling bottom pair on Kxx when he calls our raises. Given that he did make the flop call, we should not be opening J9s against him in future, except maybe on the button. Pay attention to how loose people are calling, not just this guy but the table in general. J9s is a fine open against a loose-passive table that call too much pre flop and fold easily post flop. These tables definitely exist at 2nl, but it only takes one guy to make bad calls to change the table dynamic.

    don't be obsessed with bluffing at 2nl
    Agreed. cbetting Axx and Kxx flops with air is generally an ok bluff against loose players, but stop bluffing if you get called or raised. Also, semibluffing big draws like NFD and open enders to the nuts will be profitable at these stakes, partly because we get folds sometimes from better hands, but more because it builds a large pot and makes it harder for fish to get away when we hit the nuts.

    But generally, most bluffs will just get you into trouble. People don't fold enough at these stakes. Focus on value, limit your bluffs to situations where the flop hits our range better than villain's (like this one), or we have plenty of nut equity (30%+).

    2nl is about taking stacks with your monsters decent pots with medium hands and losing the least with weak hands, Playing shit hands,out of position won't accomplish any of those.
    So much this.The only things I will add to this is that J9s flops reasonably well, it's a mediocre hand for me, rather than a shit hand. J9o is a shit hand.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith View Post
    as Ong said .

    Fold pre - relatively shit cards and likly to be out of position the whole hand . what are you doing if you get raised ? should be folding.

    check fold flop - you missed , theres over card which hits his range and all his Ax,Kx,Qx,JT+,2x, and 5x have you beat and shit like 64 , a4, a3,34 all picked up draws that hes never folding. save your money for when you hit top end of your range against him and hes happy to keep calling your bets down with his mid pairs .

    turn
    - meh check fold still - we're drawing to a shitty flush on a paired board which he could still beat you on if you hit with his k2,k5, 22 and 55 hands - its a shitty position so why build the pot.

    river - check fold - calling station is never folding.

    don't be obsessed with bluffing at 2nl , 2nl is about taking stacks with your monsters decent pots with medium hands and losing the least with weak hands, Playing shit hands,out of position won't accomplish any of those.

    As for stack size , by not rebuying to 100bb you are announcing that you are a fish afraid how much you will lose , rather than trying to win the most that you can
    Thank you for the feedback, I don't bluff often rarely at all, I felt a bit adventurous here lol which was a mistake versus what appears to be a calling station. If I got raised It would have depended on who raised me but if it was BU I was probrably folding because he had passive stats and I would keep collecting data on his tendencies. I would kindly disagree about J9s being a shitty hand its not the best hand but its also not the worst.

    "As for stack size , by not rebuying to 100bb you are announcing that you are a fish afraid how much you will lose , rather than trying to win the most that you can". I am perfectly fine with villains assuming this about me, they will be making errors in they're reads because in general I am playing solid starting hands and only bet my made hands post flop. I understand playing with 200bb is ideal but while I am in the process of becoming a winning player I feel more comfortable buying in for 40-50bb. I agree that I should probably not try to bluff much and I don't but I feel it is necessary to experiment here and there with bluffs and different lines that make my hand look a certain way to learn more about my perceived range versus villains range instead of my actual holding that way I can be learning the deeper elements of the game .
    Last edited by DonkeyBets; 02-08-2020 at 05:16 PM.
  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Keith is better than I am, but I'm not so quick to check/fold this flop when I do raise and get called by the button. This flop hits our range more than villain's, and we only have jack high. This is a clear cbet for me, we definitely want villain to have the option to fold. If we're checking this flop, we definitely should not be opening J9s. We should only raise this pre if we get called wide enough for us to profitably bluff Axx and Kxx flops. But we also don't want villain to be calling bottom pair on Kxx when he calls our raises. Given that he did make the flop call, we should not be opening J9s against him in future, except maybe on the button. Pay attention to how loose people are calling, not just this guy but the table in general. J9s is a fine open against a loose-passive table that call too much pre flop and fold easily post flop. These tables definitely exist at 2nl, but it only takes one guy to make bad calls to change the table dynamic.



    Agreed. cbetting Axx and Kxx flops with air is generally an ok bluff against loose players, but stop bluffing if you get called or raised. Also, semibluffing big draws like NFD and open enders to the nuts will be profitable at these stakes, partly because we get folds sometimes from better hands, but more because it builds a large pot and makes it harder for fish to get away when we hit the nuts.

    But generally, most bluffs will just get you into trouble. People don't fold enough at these stakes. Focus on value, limit your bluffs to situations where the flop hits our range better than villain's (like this one), or we have plenty of nut equity (30%+).



    So much this.The only things I will add to this is that J9s flops reasonably well, it's a mediocre hand for me, rather than a shit hand. J9o is a shit hand.
    Solid advice, thank you for the responses. I agree
  18. #18
    I would kindly disagree about J9s being a shitty hand its not the best hand but its also not the worst.
    It does depend on the situation. J9s is an ok hand, but don't overplay it. It's not a hand we want to be always playing. If the table is aggressive pre flop, then it's a shit hand, just throw this away. Folding this pre won't be a mistake, while raising it might be. If you're not sure, err on the side of caution and play a tighter range, with JTs the weakest open.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    It does depend on the situation. J9s is an ok hand, but don't overplay it. It's not a hand we want to be always playing. If the table is aggressive pre flop, then it's a shit hand, just throw this away. Folding this pre won't be a mistake, while raising it might be. If you're not sure, err on the side of caution and play a tighter range, with JTs the weakest open.
    lmao "if the table is aggressive pre-flop than its a shit hand" that made me laugh out loud that was funny, also true. Thanks for looking out for me.
  20. #20
    the point is though , fold pre especially while you are learning to play . stay out of the difficult decisions . You can add weaker hands later when you've developed your hand reading and have a better instinctive read of opponents ranges.Most of your money will be lost post flop , and the way to avoid that is to tighten up your preflop game.
    There is no substitute for experience , and its far better to play tight initially and gain a profitable game quicker to finance your learning and gaining experience than trying to play fancy and pulling off moves that are marginal at best and bankroll killers at worst.

    The downside of buying in short is that it is typically a different strategy . the downside is that you limit your winnings with monsters and get pot committed quickly . the upside is that you can mess with deep guys multi way because you limit your losses but other deep guys have to protect themselves against losing 100bb+ pots. But you really need to understand the strategy to make it work and it was developed when ratholing was possible and most sites have now taken steps to remove ratholing by forcing you to buy into new tables with the amount you left a table with .
    if you want to play shortstacked play SNG or mtts
  21. #21
    Yeah really good post.

    And it's only taken you twelve years to get an avatar! What you promoting there Keith?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  22. #22
    I just took a look at the FAQs for Standard Backing. Looks interesting, but 300 MTT games a month? That's an insane amount of poker that will require heavy multitabling. I'd want to play one game at a time, and if I go deep that might be one game a day. How is one supposed to play 300 a month?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith
    the point is though , fold pre especially while you are learning to play . stay out of the difficult decisions . You can add weaker hands later when you've developed your hand reading and have a better instinctive read of opponents ranges.Most of your money will be lost post flop , and the way to avoid that is to tighten up your preflop game.
    There is no substitute for experience , and its far better to play tight initially and gain a profitable game quicker to finance your learning and gaining experience than trying to play fancy and pulling off moves that are marginal at best and bankroll killers at worst.
    This is the best advice you've been given so far donkeybets. Take this on board.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith View Post
    the point is though , fold pre especially while you are learning to play . stay out of the difficult decisions . You can add weaker hands later when you've developed your hand reading and have a better instinctive read of opponents ranges.Most of your money will be lost post flop , and the way to avoid that is to tighten up your preflop game.
    There is no substitute for experience , and its far better to play tight initially and gain a profitable game quicker to finance your learning and gaining experience than trying to play fancy and pulling off moves that are marginal at best and bankroll killers at worst.

    The downside of buying in short is that it is typically a different strategy . the downside is that you limit your winnings with monsters and get pot committed quickly . the upside is that you can mess with deep guys multi way because you limit your losses but other deep guys have to protect themselves against losing 100bb+ pots. But you really need to understand the strategy to make it work and it was developed when ratholing was possible and most sites have now taken steps to remove ratholing by forcing you to buy into new tables with the amount you left a table with .
    if you want to play shortstacked play SNG or mtts
    Hey thanks for the advice I will keep this in mind, I appreciate all your feedback and it is important to me, that said I am not completely brand new to poker I have been playing on and off for over 10-years online and have studied only small amounts in that time. In the past 2 months I have gone full study mode and taken it more seriously than before trying to improve.I agree with what you said about fancy play aswell and I don't know if you meant this hand specifically but I've been reading a book by a Poker Pro named Jon Little and in his book he says it is fine to open from MP with J9s if you are first in, he also considers 40-50bb as somewhat deep, he calls a short stack between 12bb or fewer and a medium stack between 12-40. He says with 40-50bb you can still play hands that will have good implied odds because you can still win alot with your stack size.The reason for posting this hand was to get feedback and thoughts mainly on how my range looked versus villains range and speculations after the flop.

    I didn't know villain was a calling station until after this hand so its hard to know on the river that he is never folding if I havn't been in a hand with him yet or kept an eye out to see how he played, his line of play looked pretty weak and I had put him on alot of middle or bottom pairs, I think maybe If another king didnt come on the turn he might have given me more credit for holding one but maybe not .

    " Ax,Kx,Qx,JT+,2x, and 5x have you beat and shit like 64 , a4, a3,34 all picked up draws that hes never folding"

    It is true I am losing to anything but I wasn't playing this hand based on what I was holding, I was playing it with how my range looked and I thought it looked strong like I am holding a K a decent amount of the time but wanted to know what others thought. I almost gave up on the turn but I picked up a flushdraw and like you say the board is paired and that is indeed bad if I hit my flush when he has a full-house but that seems like such a small portion of his range here when he flat calls me on the BU pre-flop with his VPIP.. could he not hold any 2 cards after his pre-flop call?
    Last edited by DonkeyBets; 02-10-2020 at 12:58 AM.
  25. #25
    you are giving opponents far too much credit at 2nl , the vast majority aren't thinking about what you have , they are looking at their cards period , they are instinctively calling stations who don't realise that there is a fold button , so don't bluff unless your hud tells you they are a nit .

    If you want some really cheap tutoring , go to parttimepokers youtube channel , they bought out grinderschools back catalog and are putting all of grinderschool videos up there for free. search for carroters videos. or if you are into oldschool videos bigspenda from the time when ong and I started here . strategy moves on though but those videos will give you a grounding in how to be profitable.

    that quote about stack sizes implies it was a book about tournament play and you should be careful applying pro's reasoning to 2nl . its like watching a lewis hamilton F1 driving video and trying to apply it to a track day in a modern saloon car. its trying to drive fast around a track in both , but you'll need to drive different cars differently due to differences in acceleration , grip etc and the f1 will blitz the saloon car but you can still get taken out by idots fighting their own private war and not having a clue what your doing because they are focussed solely on themselves and not looking what else is going on around them
  26. #26
    Yeah really good post.

    And it's only taken you twelve years to get an avatar! What you promoting there Keith?


    I've been head admin there for 12months now,
    brother was made disabled a couple of years ago so sold up the farm as there was no money in tenant farming anymore and didn't fancy doing all the work myself and had been doing auditing work in the evenings for a couple of years for them. head Admin wanteed to leave so put myself forward to take over his role and do it full time.

    We're one of the 3 major staking groups and stake cash games(10nl up) as well, our players have won the sunday million twice since nov 2018 and currently putting together strategies to move into other fields like live mtts and sports betting.
  27. #27
    No the book is called mastering small stakes iits not tournament
  28. #28
    also , only play 1 or two tables and when you fold , your learning hasn't stopped . Keep playing the hand work out what they are representing and try and narrow down what range of hands you think they have . the more you do this the faster your hand reading will develop and you will be able to apply better ranges to populations of the different types of players . And make copious notes of odd things you see them do. don't note the normal stuff else the useful notes will be lost amongst them when you have a decision to make.
  29. #29
    cover reads " [COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]Mastering Small Stakes No-Limit Hold'em: Strategies to Consistently Beat Small Stakes Tournaments and Cash Games[/COLOR]
    Book by Jonathan Little" so implies that those stack sizes you were quoting are from the tournament section .

  30. #30
    He’s says at the beginning of the book quote” I want to make it clear it is applicable to both tournaments and cash games,live and online, while these games and venues have settle differences they have a lot in common,at the end of the day poker is poker.in the opening sections of the book I will lay out strategies to beat games where your only goal is to win chips, cash games. And later discuss how to alter your play when the goal is to win the most equity as possible, tournaments.
  31. #31
    then says “ do not fool yourself into thinking you should use a drastically different strategy in the opening stages of a tournament compared to a cash game.The opening stages of a tournament where there are no immediate payout jumps and cash games play almost exactly the same, similarly live and online poker have settle differences that we will discuss later, but they have more similarities than differences”

    I’m not arguing or anything I’m just writing what he says you don’t have to agree with him.
  32. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith
    I've been head admin there for 12months now, brother was made disabled a couple of years ago so sold up the farm as there was no money in tenant farming anymore and didn't fancy doing all the work myself and had been doing auditing work in the evenings for a couple of years for them. head Admin wanteed to leave so put myself forward to take over his role and do it full time.


    We're one of the 3 major staking groups and stake cash games(10nl up) as well, our players have won the sunday million twice since nov 2018 and currently putting together strategies to move into other fields like live mtts and sports betting.
    Sorry to hear about your Bro, life sucks sometimes.

    Sports betting is an area you guys are looking at? Is there actually a +ev strategy when it comes to betting? I've always considered this to be pure gambling. It's great that your site has huge success though, two Sunday Million winners in a year is an incredible achievement. I always had better success in MTTs, I just struggle with the patience required to sit there for hours. I mostly play cash games badugi these days, lots of players at the lowest stakes are far from optimal, very few are good. I don't think I'm particularly skilled, but I'm solid enough to make some money. It's pretty boring though, when you fold there's not much to watch.

    Good to see you back.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  33. #33
    i'd question the validity of anything hes written based on that quote alone. Yes, the blind sizes start the same but hes ignoring the major difference between cash games and tournament play in that cash games you can top back up to 100 BB and in tournaments you will bleed chops if you play them both the same way and tournaments pretty quickly get to a stage where everyone is playing somewhat short stacked.Short stacked play is a whole different ball game to deep stacked play.
  34. #34
    No In the book he talks about all that, that is good point he makes sure to touch on that it’s an audiobook I’m listening too.I remember hearing him talk about that part somewhere in the middle of the book I’m not going to bother finding it may take awhile. The quotes I just wrote above are from right when you start the audiobook. For every position at the table he has 3 different range charts depending on your stack size they are for 40bb+. , 12-40bb and 1-12bb. He also has different range charts depending on the action before you and behind you + more There are a total of 237 or some odd hand range charts in the book. . The book is pretty in depth it’s a tough read but very informative for me.He also makes it clear not to always blindly follow a range chart and to keep table dynamics and all that into account. During this hand with J9 no one was playing crazy I wasn’t watching the whole time when I’m multi tabling but I usually notice when I see people splashing chips
    Last edited by DonkeyBets; 02-10-2020 at 06:12 AM.
  35. #35
    We're one of the 3 major staking groups and stake cash games(10nl up) as well, our players have won the sunday million twice since nov 2018 and currently putting together strategies to move into other fields like live mtts and sports betting.


    need to update this post , its now twice this year with one of our coaches/players taking it down again last night .

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •