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BTN Fishy Short stack open

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  1. #1

    Default BTN Fishy Short stack open

    $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Holdem
    6 Players
    Hand Conversion Powered by WeakTight Poker Hand History Converter

    Stacks:
    UTG ($98.5BB) 99bb
    UTG+1 ($105.5BB) 106bb
    CO ($100BB) 100bb
    BTN ($27BB) 27bb
    SB Hero ($158.5BB) 159bb
    BB ($102.5BB) 103bb

    Pre-Flop: (1.5BB, 6 players) Hero is SB
    3 folds, BTN raises to 4BB, Hero goes all-in 158.5BB, 1 fold, BTN calls 23BB

    BTN is looking like fishy short stack player no real sample, BB is weakish reg who is only ever 3betting with strong value hands like AK, JJ+ (maybe slightly wider).

    So my question is

    Do we have a flatting range?
    If we are just raising/folding what's our sizing going to be? Does it differ with different parts of our range?

    I somewhat obviously had a strong hand so shoved but struggle to see how this is the optimal sizing and in this scenario I'm happy for both villains to snap call but with other hands in this spot much less so.
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  2. #2
    bjsaust's Avatar
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    The problem with the description is that 'fishy' doesn't really tell us much. Targets like this have different tendencies, but I'm going to assume you mean he's getting involved in a lot of hands, which generally means either he sees too many flops and gives up too easily, or he sees too many flops and hates folding. The former you want to raise a lot pre with a wide range and bet a lot post. The latter you want to see a lot of flops cheaply with him with any 2 decently high cards, and overvalue TP against them.

    So with very little reads, given he's raised I'm assuming he fits more in the camp of wanting to win too many pots. I'm 3 betting a bit wider than usual, adding in more broadway cards I might otherwise call or fold to stronger player. The higher cards I don't 3 bet I'd call with. So my calling range is a lot of cards around T. QT. JT, 9T, QJ...maybe like 88-99, bit torn on them. KJ maybe. I dunno. Anything stronger than that I'm 3-betting, and stuff like low-mid SCs I'm folding. Basically I'm looking to make good 1 pair hands against him.

    Raise size is tricky. Given read on BB I lead towards kind of small. Like 10BB. Would give a 22BB pot with villain having around 17BB behind? Makes a nice flop bet size. Maybe 11?

    All in all though, this stack/pot ratio is exactly why I struggle at tournaments, so I'm no expert here.
    Just dipping my toes back in.
  3. #3
    oskar's Avatar
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    Huge shoutout to StoxEV for valuing my 10 year old license when it's not even called that anymore. Unfortunately I don't really know how to use it proper anymore, but after punching in some rough ranges, shoving a super wide range is so profitable it's hard to argue for calling. I feel inclined to flat broadways (dominated when he calls a 3b but play great post) and lead a wide range of flops (2 overs, backdoor draws+).

    There's no way raise/folding isn't a huge mistake.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  4. #4
    OngBonga's Avatar
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    This line from hero looks like a range of exactly AK. Even fish can find a fold with AQ here (on bb).

    Just 3bet something like 12bb with anything we 3bet, the rest of our range is a fold.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    This line from hero looks like a range of exactly AK. Even fish can find a fold with AQ here (on bb).

    Just 3bet something like 12bb with anything we 3bet, the rest of our range is a fold.
    Then your hand reading skills are complete ass. The fish isn't the BB either it's the BTN I'm not particularly trying to exploit the BB it's BTN we are going for.
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  6. #6
    OngBonga's Avatar
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    You're not trying to exploit the bb but he's still in the hand, sitting there with 100bb, and you're betting 100bb into a 7bb pot. You're either missing a fuck ton of value from the bb by letting him fold AQ, or getting coolered when he calls his QQ+/AK.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    You're not trying to exploit the bb but he's still in the hand, sitting there with 100bb, and you're betting 100bb into a 7bb pot. You're either missing a fuck ton of value from the bb by letting him fold AQ, or getting coolered when he calls his QQ+/AK.
    As Oskar said this isn't true.

    Also you've once again assumed we have AK here. We are shoving so much wider. The size of villains stack makes it awkward but when we are trying to exploit that person that should somewhat dominate our range especially when villains aren't going to be adjusting well.

    I'm also not 3betting shoving everything, I had a strong hand. But that's why I think it's difficult. If I had something like ATs I'd be a lot more stuck as to what to do.
    Last edited by Savy; 08-03-2018 at 04:38 PM.
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  8. #8
    OngBonga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savy View Post
    As Oskar said this isn't true.

    Also you've once again assumed we have AK here.
    No I assume when we have AK we're losing value and when we're weaker we're leaking like a fucked fridge.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    No I assume when we have AK we're losing value and when we're weaker we're leaking like a fucked fridge.
    Which, once again as Oksar said, you're wrong about. EVen if he has completely ignored BB snapping they are an overly tight player who is doing this very rarely and as a result we face QQ+, AK and still have some sort of reasonable equity, especially when it goes 3way which it basically always should.
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  10. #10
    OngBonga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savy View Post
    Which, once again as Oksar said, you're wrong about.
    Oskar is the go to man for confirmation now? If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But I'd be curious to know how we're making money when we're either something like 60-40 chasing a 25bb profit, or heavily dominated facing a 100bb loss. We're gonna need to get HU vs btn a lot. Maybe we're getting there enough, and therefore making money shoving. Is it the most profitable line though? Where's the analysis on other lines? Tell me I'm wrong when you've done that.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Oskar is the go to man for confirmation now? If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But I'd be curious to know how we're making money when we're either something like 60-40 chasing a 25bb profit, or heavily dominated facing a 100bb loss. We're gonna need to get HU vs btn a lot. Maybe we're getting there enough, and therefore making money shoving. Is it the most profitable line though? Where's the analysis on other lines? Tell me I'm wrong when you've done that.
    He literally said he put in some ranges in a EV calculator and said we are making lots of money.

    Also I've never said this is the best line if anything I've actively said I don't think it is, that doesn't mean shoving here with most of our very strong hands doesn't make us a lot of money. But that Ong is literally why I made the thread in the first place...

    If I knew the best line and how to go about finding it perfectly I literally would never post even ona dead forum as I'd be too busy being bored making pennies.
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  12. #12
    OngBonga's Avatar
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    He literally said he put in some ranges in a EV calculator and said we are making lots of money.
    "lots"

    We must make more when we 3bet to 12bb. Imagine bb wakes up with QQ+/AK. Let's say we have AJs, a clear 3bet spot. When we go to 12bb, bb can 4bet us with his QQ+/AK and we can easily fold, saving us 80% of 90bb compared to the times we're committed by making this shove.

    btn is an irrelevance. He's shoving a lot when we 3b to 12bb, and the times he doesn't he faces a half pot shove on the flop before he blinks. Just because btn is the target, we can't ignore bb. He's full stacked and we want to play our range optimally vs him too.

    By 3betting 12bb, we also give the bb a chance to flat, and then when btn shoves we can print money by reshoving.

    I would be really surprised if this shove is optimal. Profitable? Sure, but if you have AA here, you know it's a) profitable, and b) dumb.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  13. #13
    It's actually much easier for calling station to click call than it is click raise.

    And still definitely not dumb but unless you feel like adding something to this thread bar speculation I don't think I'm gaining very much from it. Especially when you're questioning the things I say that are specifically said in this thread and very clearly.
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  14. #14
    OngBonga's Avatar
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    And still definitely not dumb but unless you feel like adding something to this thread bar speculation
    Sorry I didn't know suggesting a more optimal line was failing to add something to your thread.

    I'll fuck off and leave you to think you're not a fish.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  15. #15
    OngBonga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savy View Post
    So my question is

    Do we have a flatting range?
    If we are just raising/folding what's our sizing going to be? Does it differ with different parts of our range?

    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Just 3bet something like 12bb with anything we 3bet, the rest of our range is a fold.
    I just want to point out that I responded exactly to this thread as you asked. I suggested a bet size for all of our 3b range and no, we don't have a flatting range.

    Don't be that guy who gets shitty with people when they're talking about hands you post. People are sometimes wrong, you don't need to be a dick. Save this shit for the commune.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  16. #16
    Think my standard would be to raise to 27bb a range of something like 88+, AQ+, AJs (i.e. no bluffs because I don't expect folds) and fold a chunk of that if BB wants to get involved.

    What's the counter argument?
  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Sorry I didn't know suggesting a more optimal line was failing to add something to your thread.

    I'll fuck off and leave you to think you're not a fish.
    Thread - Here is a line I played I don't think it's optimal thoughts?

    Your reply - Not optimal.

    Ohh what about the calculations people have run? Thoughts on ranges? Lines to take with various ranges?

    Your reply - FISH

    ok mate.
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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I just want to point out that I responded exactly to this thread as you asked. I suggested a bet size for all of our 3b range and no, we don't have a flatting range.

    Don't be that guy who gets shitty with people when they're talking about hands you post. People are sometimes wrong, you don't need to be a dick. Save this shit for the commune.
    Your first post was mad stupid. Bar you actively disagreeing with something that someone has taken the time to calculate I've not said anything negative to you in this thread. The whole reason I posted this thread was because it agrees with your general thought that doing this is not optimal.
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by The Bean Counter View Post
    Think my standard would be to raise to 27bb a range of something like 88+, AQ+, AJs (i.e. no bluffs because I don't expect folds) and fold a chunk of that if BB wants to get involved.

    What's the counter argument?
    Just put opener all in? Seems more like what I'd want to do with my range as a whole.
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  20. #20
    OngBonga's Avatar
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    Ok here's how I saw it...

    thread... should i have a flatting range? what about bet size and should it differ?

    me... no, 12bb and no

    savy... oskar says you're wrong about shoving not being profitable

    me... whatever, you're losing value by shoving

    savy - you're not contributing to my thread

    ong - butthurt

    savy - waa waa

    ong - waa waa
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    ong - butthurt
    dw pal I love ya, if I didn't I wouldn't be so happy calling you a retard for your bad hand reading skills, but we should definitely have a flatting range. I'm 100% on that I just have 0 idea what it looks like.

    Also let's remember there is a >0% chance Oskar is a retard.
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  22. #22
    OngBonga's Avatar
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    I'm not so convinced we should have a flatting range (vs opens) on the sb. It's something I've made a conscious effort to cut out of my game. It's 3b/fold for me.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  23. #23
    OngBonga's Avatar
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    I say that, I can probably get behind calling small pairs in limpfests when we know the big blind is allowing flops, but I'm adapting to the table there.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I'm not so convinced we should have a flatting range (vs opens) on the sb. It's something I've made a conscious effort to cut out of my game. It's 3b/fold for me.
    We definitely should, it's some fish shit people do because good BB players then like to squeeze a shit load. I'm not buying it as good standard play especially not against weak players.
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  25. #25
    OngBonga's Avatar
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    If the bb is squeezing a lot, I can see good reaon to flat decent pairs, along with some traps, but again it's an adaptation. I'd prefer to not have someone like that to my left though. Ideally we have a nit on the bb.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  26. #26
    bjsaust's Avatar
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    Interesting. I was going to comment on my SB calling range, then I filtered by results by position and SB is my only losing position, and it's large (although not a heap of hands). There's some questionable postflop hands, and some outright bad ones, but overall I'd say I just need to be involved in less SBs in general. When I do hit a big hand, I'm rarely getting paid off.
    Just dipping my toes back in.
  27. #27
    oskar's Avatar
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    12x with some of your range might be better, but that's too brainy for me. I don't mind getting it in with 30% equity the 1/40 hands we're getting called by bb. Playing this post flop, oop, with like A7o in a 3b 3-way pot with the SS in last position is the stuff nightmares are made of.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.

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