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2NL 6max Stat Range: Fold to Turn Raise

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  1. #1
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    Default 2NL 6max Stat Range: Fold to Turn Raise

    I was wondering if anyone had a guess at my situational stat range fold to turn raise? I know different HUD's have different stat titles and actual ranges based on the way this stat is worded. Any range will help me dial this stat in, so chime in. Specifically a 3 to 5 range works best for me. Hard to make $ / Slightly +/- optimal / Optimal / Easy to make money / is how my HUD is set up, so would help best, but once again, anything will be awesome.
  2. #2
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    (I had to re-read that post a couple times to make sense of it, and I'm not sure I fully get it, so... grain of salt if this is a derail)

    This stat can't help you much at all unless it's against a specific opponent.

    How you play against many different villains holding many different ranges, based on varied betting lines and board textures is not something that you can amalgamate into a single stat and glean whether or not you're doing it right.

    Poker is a game of observing your opponents and acting in specifically tuned ways against each of them.
    If you ignore that, it undercuts the primary path to value in the game.
  3. #3
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    I wouldn't lose much sleep over it tbh. As long you're ranging villains and re-evaluating your non-nut made hands when raised ott, it's all good.
  4. #4
    Fold to turn raise needs to happen quite a few times for us to get a good statistic on a villain, given that the situation where people have the chance to fold to a turn raise in a pot happens almost never we're talking needing sample sizes of tens of thousands of hands on a villain for it not to be a complete waste of time.

    Concentrate on things that happen frequently, you playing badly against turn raises IP with the initiative as a leak is just not important to deal with at all because it almost never happens. Even if you lose 30bb every time it happens compared to that 1bb mistake you're making every time you get a chance to open the button against the blinds it's unimportant.

    Your little range thing is awful btw, you should have absolutely 0 colour on your HUD pointing out peoples mistakes until you're much better at poker than you are because it's just an excuse to be lazy and not pay attention. On top of that you have absolutely no idea what stats are good, don't understand ranges, etc so it's nonsense.

    There are various people that play lots of type of profitable poker all with different stats.
  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savy View Post
    Fold to turn raise needs to happen quite a few times for us to get a good statistic on a villain, given that the situation where people have the chance to fold to a turn raise in a pot happens almost never we're talking needing sample sizes of tens of thousands of hands on a villain for it not to be a complete waste of time.

    Concentrate on things that happen frequently, you playing badly against turn raises IP with the initiative as a leak is just not important to deal with at all because it almost never happens. Even if you lose 30bb every time it happens compared to that 1bb mistake you're making every time you get a chance to open the button against the blinds it's unimportant.

    Your little range thing is awful btw, you should have absolutely 0 colour on your HUD pointing out peoples mistakes until you're much better at poker than you are because it's just an excuse to be lazy and not pay attention. On top of that you have absolutely no idea what stats are good, don't understand ranges, etc so it's nonsense.

    There are various people that play lots of type of profitable poker all with different stats.
    It almost seems like you are looking down upon me as I read your statements. Please stop telling what I can and shouldn't be doing and help me. I can tell you are knowledgeable. BTW, I have made over 10k playing online, so I am not a total novice. I just want to learn from scratch and piece everything together better than it was, is. I appreciate your help Savy.
  6. #6
    It depends how you want to read it I suppose. You suck at poker but I don't really care how good people are at poker and everyone starts off sucking. I don't know you in any real way however if you read one of my first posts directed at you you'll see that I said it seemed like you'd stick around a while and that if you posted hands I'd comment (something I haven't done for a very long time) so if you knew me (which you equally don't) you'd realise if anything the opposite is true.

    That being said you spend too much time thinking I (and some others) are being nasty to you. It's -EV. It doesn't really matter if I'm being nasty or not it matters that you take as much value from the information, which may include ignoring it, that you can. As you care about getting good at poker not being my friend.

    It's also important to realise that the most important thing about poker is that you enjoy it* so if my posts are stopping your enjoyment of getting better you should just stop read

    *Assuming you aren't dumping loads of money, gambling addictions etc
    Last edited by Savy; 06-26-2017 at 02:54 PM.
  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcash2 View Post
    It almost seems like you are looking down upon me as I read your statements. Please stop telling what I can and shouldn't be doing and help me. I can tell you are knowledgeable. BTW, I have made over 10k playing online, so I am not a total novice. I just want to learn from scratch and piece everything together better than it was, is. I appreciate your help Savy.
    I doubt he's taking that tone to deliberately make you feel bad. I can tell from his post that he is legit trying to help you. He's just not sugar coating it. This has nothing to do with Savy, but remember that most of the stuff you read on forums is garbage and the times it isn't you sometimes need to read between the lines and/or ignore the tone it's written in.
  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savy View Post
    It depends how you want to read it I suppose. You suck at poker but I don't really care how good people are at poker and everyone starts off sucking. I don't know you in any real way however if you read one of my first posts directed at you you'll see that I said it seemed like you'd stick around a while and that if you posted hands I'd comment (something I haven't done for a very long time) so if you knew me (which you equally don't) you'd realise if anything the opposite is true.

    That being said you spend too much time thinking I (and some others) are being nasty to you. It's -EV. It doesn't really matter if I'm being nasty or not it matters that you take as much value from the information, which may include ignoring it, that you can. As you care about getting good at poker not being my friend.

    It's also important to realise that the most important thing about poker is that you enjoy it* so if my posts are stopping your enjoyment of getting better you should just stop read

    *Assuming you aren't dumping loads of money, gambling addictions etc
    I understand and know that you are actually trying to help me, and I thank you, and will continue to read your comments. It's just that you are a neurotic chap, that always seems to wade in the half-empty side of the pool. Hard to read sometimes, along with the asshole-faced avatar, which I hear reading to me. Maybe I just have thin skin and can't take, paraphrasing "you suck too much to even worry about learning just what I tell you to learn" well, from a supposed mentor. I don't know which. I will take your comments in a monotone from here on out, because you don't appear to ever take a positive tone on any posts I've read. Sucks, but I'll get used to other people ways and not merely my own. I am sorry.
  9. #9
    OngBonga's Avatar
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    Don't read too much into people's tone. Honestly, you'll get the wrong end of the stick more often than not. It's really easy to misread people's tone in type.

    Some people just tend to come across as an asshole in type. When you've been here a little longer, you'll realise savy isn't an asshole.

    Well, that's a tiny lie, he can be an asshole. But most of the time he isn't.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  10. #10
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  11. #11
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    No suggestions for the stat then? I basically got a "You don't need to worry about this yet". So it a big no?
  12. #12
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    I mean... there will be some value that is "right" for you and your style and goals and table selection, etc., but it's not something that we have any interest in trying to calculate.

    There's nothing prescriptive about that stat. I.e. if the stat is high, what does that mean? If the stat is low what does that mean? Does either case reflect a leak in your play?
    This is not clear and will vary between players and the villain's each player faces.

    There's variation in what will be "right" for various players, even in the same situation. I.e. a typical LAG player will have different stats than a typical TAG player, even assuming both have the same overall winrate against the same villains. So it stands to reason that the LAG player is going to have a different fold-to-turn-raise stat then the TAG player. The TAG player has a tighter range to get to that spot, and will likely want to continue to said raise more frequently than the LAG player with a wider range in that spot.

    So, even when we know what the stat represents, there may be no "right" answer for you. The best we may be able to find out is a kind of general idea of the landscape of that stat. We may be able to make soft statements like, "For a TAG player at the micros with 1 - 2 fish on the table, XX fold-to-turn-raise is pretty common," but what does that actually tell us about how to adjust our ranges in those spots?

    I don't see any prescriptive suggestions from that stat, so I'd ignore it until I figured it out or someone showed me.
    Just be wary of people (even me) saying things aren't important. That may be true, or it may be true for them, but not you, or it may be not true, but a misunderstanding.
  13. #13
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    You are right. This isn't what I needed. It doesn't tell me what I was after. I was trying to figure a way of telling the villains that call my cb's then steal when I check turn. Frustrating me. I hate folding to such a simple, yet effective ploy.
  14. #14
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    You're looking for the turn missed cbet stat, either bet when checked to on the turn or bet oop when flop went check check.

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