2nd nuts vs turn action

Originally Posted by givememyleg

I would raise the flop. As played, fist pump all-in and be happy about it.

Why's that?

O'k so i'm going to assign him quite a tight range of AdAh,AdAs,AhAs,KdKh,KdKs,KhKs,QQ-TT,AKs,QJs,AKo i'm not putting all 2 pair in his range and i'm only assigning 3 combos each of AA and KK as i don't think he always plays those hands this way which gives me 46% equity

My break even point on a shove is 32% equity ? so vs that range i should shove. Even vs AK TT JJ QQ i have 33% equity so really unless i can put him on strictly on AK i have to shove . Its been a while since i tried working on the maths and not the strongest part of my game right now.


What did you mean by mashing buttons and not being solid but rigid ? one of my biggest problems is recognizing player types unless its plainly obvious they are nitty or Aggro , i have quite alot of trouble deciphering info from stats as i'm pretty new to using a hud so i only understand some of the basics of the stats.

Im also trying to work on some default ranges would you say 15% utg is ok and add 5% for every position so 20% mp 25% co and 30% btn etc... is ok ? ive gone back to playing all pp's for a raise in utg and mp although i used to fold 22-55 from those positions and what are your thoughts on calling small pp's from the blinds vs lp opens co and btn as a general rule ?

sorry for the daft questions

Thanks for the help.

Originally Posted by AceVentura

O'k so i'm going to assign him quite a tight range of AdAh,AdAs,AhAs,KdKh,KdKs,KhKs,QQ-TT,AKs,QJs,AKo i'm not putting all 2 pair in his range and i'm only assigning 3 combos each of AA and KK as i don't think he always plays those hands this way which gives me 46% equity

It's important to think of Villain's range as a story that starts PRE.

I fully expect Villain to be playing QJ and JT from this spot, and he's probably not thinking of 2-pair as a "trouble hand" OTF.
I also expect to see Villain holding 98s some portion of the time.

Will he x/r his 2-pair and baby straight hands OTT? Probably.
Since you don't need Villain to have anything besides the nuts very often here, and you can see all kinds of stuff that he'd be tempted to do this play with, then the call is almost definitely profitable.

Originally Posted by AceVentura

My break even point on a shove is 32% equity ? so vs that range i should shove. Even vs AK TT JJ QQ i have 33% equity so really unless i can put him on strictly on AK i have to shove . Its been a while since i tried working on the maths and not the strongest part of my game right now.

I don't know where you're getting this break even point.

Your equity on a shove has 3 parts, based on Villain's range. Villain's range has 3 parts:
the part that folds to your shove, the part that calls and wins, the part that calls and loses

The EV of a shove is the sum of the partial EV's corresponding to the 3 portions of Villain's range.
We can't calculate the EV of your shove until we speculate as to Villain's range and how he will react to your bet.

You have guessed a range for Villain to x/r OTT.
What's your guess for how that range responds to a shove?
Which hands fold? Which hands call?
Among the hands that call, which do you beat?

Originally Posted by AceVentura

What did you mean by mashing buttons and not being solid but rigid ? one of my biggest problems is recognizing player types unless its plainly obvious they are nitty or Aggro , i have quite alot of trouble deciphering info from stats as i'm pretty new to using a hud so i only understand some of the basics of the stats.

I mean that he thinks 22-77 is just as strong UTG as it is on the BTN. This assumption is demonstrably false.
Yes, every hand has the same chance to catch the board no matter the position, but that's not the whole story of the hand. There are multiple betting streets and bluffs and other fun stuff going on.

The ability to make money off of these weak PP's comes largely from being last to act. Your position matters a great deal when it comes to extracting the value from a hand.

I meant that he's rigid in the sense that he is not positionally aware when choosing pre-flop hands. He's going to be getting involved way too often when he's OOP and he's not even aware that it's a leak.

He's button mashing because he's not bothering to notice things like position. This is highly indicative that he's not noticing or considering anyone's range but his own... if he even thinks of his play in terms of ranges.
It's probable that he values all hands the same regardless of what's on the board. I mean... he sees that he has a straight, and doesn't really consider what his opponent might have that is not folding. I bet he'd do the same with a set, even on a flop like this with 3 connected cards.

***
If you see his play as solid, then that's probably because he's learned how to eke out some tiny advantages against the player pool. It doesn't mean that he's capable of adjusting to the dynamic factors at play.

Originally Posted by AceVentura

Im also trying to work on some default ranges would you say 15% utg is ok and add 5% for every position so 20% mp 25% co and 30% btn etc... is ok ? ive gone back to playing all pp's for a raise in utg and mp although i used to fold 22-55 from those positions and what are your thoughts on calling small pp's from the blinds vs lp opens co and btn as a general rule ?

I focus on FR, so I haven't played 6-max in years. I fully expect these ranges to be a percent or two lower than you might find at 6-max. The blinds come more rapidly, and this forces you to take more chances with weaker hands.
(Note that if there were no blinds or antes, then you should never play any hand but AA. There is no penalty to folding any less than perfect hand, and no dead money to win by raising, either. If someone opens, then what hand has at least 50% equity against AA? only AA.)

The following are ranges to open if it's folded or limped to you. I hope it's obvious that you should not be willing to call with the entire range of hands you are willing to open. People acting before you have declared a strong range with their open. Adjust your own range to call accordingly.

My suggestion is to start at the BTN w/ a range of ~40% - 45%. I know some people play over 50%, but I don't suggest it for now. Start at 40% and learn the strengths and dangers of that range.
{ 22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q8s+,J7s+,T7s+,96s+,85s+,74s+,64s+,5 3s+,A2o+,KTo+,QTo+,J9o+,T8o+,98o,87o }
(Adjust as necessary for your comfort. Almost all of the hands in this range beyond the CO range are 0EV or slightly -EV hands overall. How you balance those hands can come down to comfort.
E.g. If you think K9o is easier to play than {74s, 85s, 96s}, then trade them out. 12 combos for 12 combos doesn't change your %-age.

For the CO. Aim for ~25%.
{ 22+,A2s+,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T8s+,98s,87s,76s,65s,54s,A To+,KTo+,QTo+,J9o+,T9o,98o }

Half again for HJ. Aim for ~10%.
{ 77+,ATs+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,AJo+,KQo }

For UTG, I'd shoot for ~7%.
{ 88+,ATs+,KJs+,QJs,AQo+ }

Defending the blinds is a trickier business. In general, if it's folded to me in the SB I try to steal the BB w/ a range similar to CO.

BB is a topic for it's own thread. It's rare that it's limped to you on the BB, and I don't really have a plan for what range I would raise with in that spot. Probably something like HJ. IDK if that's terrible or not.

I definitely do not recommend playing small PP's from early position. You simply aren't going to realize the long-term value from them when you consider how weak they are when they miss a set, and how they sometimes get beat by other sets, and then consider that Villain has to have a strong enough hand to pay you off. They're more trouble than benefit to your range.

I usually fold small PP's from the blinds when I'm facing a raise. I don't even like to use them for 3-bet bluffs, since I prefer to do that with A2s-A5s and only if I have a strong read that I need a 3-bet bluffing range.

Originally Posted by AceVentura

sorry for the daft questions

Thanks for the help.

While there are certainly stupid questions, I haven't seen any so far ITT.

It's my pleasure to help.

Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

I don't know where you're getting this break even point.

I was just using equilab to assign a range for villain ott and a fold equity calculator to see if shoving was profitable vs that range , the range would include his entire range folding and calling ranges vs the shove ott.

Not sure if i'm calculating it correctly using those tools or how accurate i am. I came up with that 32% as being the break even point on a shove meaning id need at'least 32% equity vs his range to shove , anything over 32% equity and it would be +ev to shove vs the range i assigned him given the pot size and the remaining stacks etc...

Thanks.

Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

Why's that?

Without getting too technical, I wouldn't fully respect villain at this level. You see funky stuff come up in hands all of the time at these stakes, even from the player's who seem solid compared to the rest of the table. Folding the second nuts would be a huge mistake. I wouldn't be surprised if his range was TT+,AQs+,KTs+,JTs,98s,AQo+,KTo+,JTo,98o and maybe even some flush draw combos. If he has AK well then nh and move on. There are many spots more important to work on improving rather than coolers.