What do regs have when they flat 4-bets?

This expert move is not in my arsenal, so I'm at a loss to put him on a range. I'm guessing it's quite strong since I'm utg and he hasn't seen me showdown a 4bet hand yet. Villain's running 21/17/2.6 and he's 3bet me enough that I'm comfortable felting JJ pre-flop here.

Full Tilt Poker, $2/$4 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

SB: $995.65
BB: $436.40
Hero (UTG): $418
MP: $382.60
CO: $400
BTN: $1,118.80

Pre-Flop: J J dealt to Hero (UTG)
Hero raises to $14, 2 folds, BTN raises to $48, 2 folds, Hero raises to $128, BTN calls $80

Flop: ($262) 7 7 K (2 Players)
Hero has $290 behind...

I'd check/fold and take a note.
If he's got a worse hand, he leveled you and earned his $128.

Check-shove the flop. Guy isn't betting 99-QQ if he has them, but he's probably betting air. He'd bet top pair or better too, but he has it well under half the time IMO.

As for what people have when they flat 4-bets. Sometimes it's AA trapping you, but usually when there's history guys will just shove with AA because they know you're calling their shove most of the time, and it'd be a disaster if you had AK missed the flop and check-folded. Usually they have a hand like 99-QQ or some suited broadway hand that didn't believe you preflop and wants to force you to put your stack in, and plans take the pot away if you give up.

I think it's horrid play, but you have to know how to react to it. Their range is weak, so you definitely need to keep the pressure on them and not let them take many pots away cheaply. If you're actually check-folding a lot of flops then they might turn a profit with their flat call.

Here's a fun hand from a couple weeks ago. Flop call was instant.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $6 BB (5 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG ($622)
Hero ($1367)
Button ($603.50)
SB ($755.65)
BB ($557.70)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 8, A.
1 fold, Hero raises to $18, Button raises to $60, 2 folds, Hero raises to $150, Button calls $90.

Flop: ($309) 2, 8, 9 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $453.5 (All-In), Hero calls $453.50.

Turn: ($1216) 3 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($1216) A (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $1216

Results in white below:
Hero has 8c Ac (two pair, aces and eights).
Button doesn't show Qh Jh (high card ace).
Outcome: Hero wins $1216.

Never played quite that high or done enough business with those regs, so this is just a semi-educated guess, but: I have a hard time figuring out why he'd need to flat a 4-bet when you're showing strong interest in felting - seems like almost any hand would fall into either push or fold. Which makes me think he has a grey area hand - AKo or QQ perhaps? The other two jacks? Probably depends on your own table image. If it's not one of those specific hands then it seems like a setup for a weird bluff.

mcat,

You're a sick, sick, sick man.

Originally Posted by dalecooper

Never played quite that high or done enough business with those regs.

Move up where people respect 3-bets

There are a handful of 200NL regs on PokerStars that play a loose 3-bet range. At least one made some adjustments when I 4-bet him a couple times and flatted a few more times with position. In the bigger games it becomes more common, also I've heard that it's common at lower levels at FTP.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by dalecooper

Never played quite that high or done enough business with those regs.

Move up where people respect 3-bets

As soon as I stop getting creamed by extremely lucky donks who don't even respect regular bets, I'll be right there.

I am leaning towards a check/call

i agree basically 100% w/ what mcat said.

i'll add this ... anyone you perceive to be a good player flatting a 4bet either isnt as good as u thought or has to have a VERY strong hand. Reason being ... he has zero implied odds to make any kind of hand, and he should be folding or 5betting all in anyways. This flatting of a 4bet I've seen done by tournament players quite a bit, w/ something like QQ not looking to get in preflop but looking for a non a/k flop. it's a very terrible, -ev play, i highly recommend against it, and would probably think less of anyone who did it.

77-JJ, QJ, KQ, AT

weird.

flat a 3-bet with extreme strength ok (AA, KK) but flatting a four bet? sounds dumb.

Originally Posted by Marshall28

i agree basically 100% w/ what mcat said.

i'll add this ... anyone you perceive to be a good player flatting a 4bet either isnt as good as u thought or has to have a VERY strong hand. Reason being ... he has zero implied odds to make any kind of hand, and he should be folding or 5betting all in anyways. This flatting of a 4bet I've seen done by tournament players quite a bit, w/ something like QQ not looking to get in preflop but looking for a non a/k flop. it's a very terrible, -ev play, i highly recommend against it, and would probably think less of anyone who did it.

There a lot of very solid players at 2/4+ who flat 4bets. I don't think it is -ev if you know what you are doing. I've still yet to figure out their range for doing it though.

wasnt that nutsinho's location description? flattin ur 4bets, tilting you? or something like that.....ask him ldo

deanglow ... it narrows your 5betting range if u r flatting w/ monsters, which you basically need to be doing, cuz u have to realize you DEFINITELY are slowplaying, whether you realize it or not, there will just be too much money in the pot to justify calling and not getting it in on any flop. it basically just makes you easier to play against and allows villain to make fewer mistakes. imo.

It's not possible for your 4-bet flatting range and your 5-bet shoving range to both be balanced. You only get big pairs so often.

Originally Posted by mcatdog

It's not possible for your 4-bet flatting range and your 5-bet shoving range to both be balanced. You only get big pairs so often.

thx for making what i said 100x clearer in a more concise manner ... respect to your writing skills.

for the record i almost never flat 4bets. most recently i did this vs flupkees in a hand which is posted in tales of poker in a spot i thought was pretty good for it. I believe most situations warrant a shove or a fold when facing a 4bet however and its not that close. When Villain is Out of position I expect to get flatted by hands like 99-JJ looking to get it in on non-AK flops but thinking my range is too strong preflop to stick it in at that point. When villain is in position I expect to get flatted by suited broadways looking to make any pair or draw as well as 99-AA, with 99-QQ looking to snap off a shove on low flops.