Shortstacking 20bb's - discuss

Nice post mike.
Wether one loves or hates shortstacks, your reasoning is quite good.
(I don't completely agree that 40BB makes it a 2 street only game, but whatever.)

Are you playing the game primarily for the money though? Or for entertainmant, the challenge, or something else?

I tried shortstacking for one session yesterday and I got very bored. I'm playing the game primarily for it's challenge. It's much more a form of sport for me than it is a game of gambling.
(I actually don't like gambling at all, maybe some blackjack, but I also approach that with pure math.)

I even think if you're playing for money alone, a lot of players would be better off taking another job or something, it'll probably make them more money.

As you already pointed out, with a shortstack you'll never be able to have a big edge on your opponents and profit fully from it. You say you don't really care about that because you don't want to study the game enough to accomplish it. Fair enough.
Though IMO if you're able to find out and play an almost ideal shortstack strategy, you'll know enough fundamentals to be a winning 'normal' stack player as well, at least until the lower small stakes.
If not, than your shortstack strategy probably isn't close to optimal either and you'll make less and less money while moving up, probably to a point where you'll lose money.

I see it like this; it's relatively easy to find a good shortstack strategy, but it's also relatively easy to counter it. Good players likely know how to.

But nevertheless you have a some good points. And as long as enough people make enough mistakes against shortstacks, there really isn't a viable reason not to do it if it pleases you.

Originally Posted by Silly String

I think the proper term is: Ratholing short-stack bastards

I think of ratholing as taking money off the table bit by bit while still playing. You can't do it online, but you can do it live.
also called "going south"

Originally Posted by minSim

Nice post mike.
Wether one loves or hates shortstacks, your reasoning is quite good.
(I don't completely agree that 40BB makes it a 2 street only game, but whatever.)

True, 40BB isn't quite just 2 streets, but if you lose 1 hand and post a few blinds your easily at 28-33BB's which where you get All-in easily with.

Originally Posted by minSim

Are you playing the game primarily for the money though? Or for entertainmant, the challenge, or something else?

Money..

Originally Posted by minSim

(I actually don't like gambling at all, maybe some blackjack, but I also approach that with pure math.)

I do have a bit of gambool in me and this helps mitigate the risk while keeping my edge.

Originally Posted by minSim

I even think if you're playing for money alone, a lot of players would be better off taking another job or something, it'll probably make them more money.

You don't have kids do you? I already have a full time job making good money. I've had part time jobs but missed out on alot of time with the kids. Playing poker making a few hundred here or there provides some disposable income for small thinks that we normally couldn't afford.

Originally Posted by minSim

As you already pointed out, with a shortstack you'll never be able to have a big edge on your opponents and profit fully from it. You say you don't really care about that because you don't want to study the game enough to accomplish it. Fair enough.
Though IMO if you're able to find out and play an almost ideal shortstack strategy, you'll know enough fundamentals to be a winning 'normal' stack player as well, at least until the lower small stakes.

I'm sure I could beat the normal stacked game. But for me part of it is BR/Risk and comfort level. I don't keep much online at any time.. $200-500. If I were to say I had a $500 BR where would you tell me to play poker? $0.25NL? Probably. the $25 MAX NL bores me, I've been playing poker too long to have any interest in grinding there. (no i'm not preaching to exceed your br management, but br management means different things to different people, and that is whole new thread that isn't going right now.)

Originally Posted by minSim

If not, than your shortstack strategy probably isn't close to optimal either and you'll make less and less money while moving up, probably to a point where you'll lose money.

Who says I plan to move up?
I know how much $ I want to make playing poker and I know much time I have weekly for poker playing/education. I'm currently able to meet all of those goals.

Originally Posted by minSim

I see it like this; it's relatively easy to find a good shortstack strategy, but it's also relatively easy to counter it. Good players likely know how to.

QFT - but who in poker makes all their money from people better than them? Nobody, you take it from people who you are better than, and try not to lose it to better players along the way.

Originally Posted by minSim

But nevertheless you have a some good points. And as long as enough people make enough mistakes against shortstacks, there really isn't a viable reason not to do it if it pleases you.

Thanks, the last posted ended up being alot longer than I though.

I guess when I really think about it I'm not a "short stack" but a small-mid stack advantage player. I know from experience that I make poor turn/river decisions and I limit them.

I have 10-20/hrs a week to play and "learn". Short stacking optimizes my play time/stakes and keeps my studying only a couple hours a month. I'm able to be home, help the kids with their homework, have dinner and still put in a couple hour a night when I have time.

Originally Posted by Fnord

I'm thinking it's time to spin off a half-stack post. I almost feel sick doing it.

Now this is interesting..

Pretty sure u could play lukie and beat him.

Originally Posted by mike4066

Originally Posted by Silly String

I think the proper term is: Ratholing short-stack bastards

I think of ratholing as taking money off the table bit by bit while still playing. You can't do it online, but you can do it live.
also called "going south"

I know the Caro definition. Don't be so literal. They are also called rat-holing bastards when quickly exiting an online table after doubling through.

Originally Posted by Triptanes

Pretty sure u could play lukie and beat him.

lol

Originally Posted by Silly String

I know the Caro definition. Don't be so literal. They are also called rat-holing bastards when quickly exiting an online table after doubling through.

Whoa.. did i insult someones e-ego? Wasn't trying to sorry..

I just remember the term Ratholing used for live play not, not just when someone does a hit & run

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by euphoricism

I lol'd. That has to be among your worst posts evar, sauce.

I'm thinking it's time to spin off a half-stack post. I almost feel sick doing it.

Gotcha Fnord, 3/4 of the way through PNL.. Given the standard 4BB raise structure of reg-games, playing 100BB deep puts us in shitty SPR spots, amirite?

I'm quite interested in a half-stack post tbh.

It's not that I think we should all play half-stacks, but going through the pros and cons, the way to play with it and it's counter-strategy can be quite insightfull imo.