Retarded 25/50 spots

1) TaBortMej is a very spewy but thinking euro player and I don't have much experience at all with WheresMyRoll but afaik he's a decent, probably quite aggressive tagg. How wide of a semibluffing range do you put him on on the turn and do you ship or fold? Does anyone not bet both the flop and the turn? Do you think it is better to go bigger on either street?

Seat 1: takechip ($7509 in chips)
Seat 2: betbetlingpi ($13298.90 in chips)
Seat 3: WheresMyRoll ($6169 in chips)
Seat 4: TaBortMej ($5690 in chips)
Seat 5: Paulus_rus ($5770 in chips)
Seat 6: nutsinho ($5225 in chips)
TaBortMej: posts small blind $25
Paulus_rus: posts big blind $50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to nutsinho [Kd Ac]
nutsinho: raises $100 to $150
takechip: calls $150
betbetlingpi: calls $150
WheresMyRoll: calls $150
TaBortMej: calls $125
Paulus_rus: calls $100
*** FLOP *** [3d 7d Ks]
TaBortMej: checks
Paulus_rus: checks
nutsinho: bets $500
takechip: folds
betbetlingpi: folds
WheresMyRoll: calls $500
TaBortMej: calls $500
Paulus_rus: folds
*** TURN *** [3d 7d Ks] [9c]
TaBortMej: checks
nutsinho: bets $1001
WheresMyRoll: raises $2354 to $3355
TaBortMej: folds
nutsinho: ?

2) Takechip is a very creative, unpredictable player who has been beating these games consistently. He's capable of slowplaying, making big bluffs, big folds, big calls, getting really thin value etc., but always in good spots; never appears too out of line. What is the best river line and why?

Seat 1: takechip ($8072 in chips)
Seat 4: TaBortMej ($4150 in chips)
Seat 6: nutsinho ($11214 in chips)
nutsinho: posts small blind $25
takechip: posts big blind $50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to nutsinho [Qs Qh]
TaBortMej: raises $100 to $150
nutsinho: raises $350 to $500
takechip: calls $450
TaBortMej: folds
*** FLOP *** [2h 3c 4s]
nutsinho: bets $650
takechip: calls $650
*** TURN *** [2h 3c 4s] [4d]
nutsinho: bets $1700
takechip: calls $1700
*** RIVER *** [2h 3c 4s 4d] [Jh]
nutsinho:

Hand 1 I'm at a total loss with. I know what I'd do in my games.

Hand 2: Given the description and not knowing what he thinks about me or any game flow considerations I would bet/call for value and hope he levels himself.

1. Why the small turn bet? I'd be worried I induced a semibluff from Ad9d/JdTd/Td9d so I'd shove. Only turned two pair hands like K9s or 97s make sense beating you... maybe 99 I guess.

2. Shitty spot vs. a good player. I think I shove for thin value. It's a good barreling board for A-high hands and a lot of worse hands get to this river so make him make a tough decision with a worse pp.

(Obv I've never played this high.)

Originally Posted by zook

Only turned two pair hands like K9s or 97s make sense beating you... maybe 99 I guess.

Flatting a set in that spot is pretty standard.

should you really be betting the turn on hand 1? I think your basically out of value... anyways, i think that from playing with wheresmyroll a decent amount i think he's actually inclined to call this flop with any sort of draws but then spewy enough to do some ridiculous jam in on the turn. Hands like 56, T8dd, 68dd come to mind. And another thing to support calling is that this seems like the type of flop he'd raise for value but rarely raise as a bluff (this is just my experience with him). But who knows if he actually would think of bluffing you on the turn in a 6-way preflop pot.

Edit: i guess my reads are irrelevant since you don't have experience with him.

But, again, i think you should check the turn

Hand 2: you think with the euro player present it would be suicide for takechip to play medium holdings to your 3-bet? Honestly maybe you should c/f... One thing for sure is that i think betting the river hard is bad.

Hand 1: I think I definetely call/allin here and play it the same.

Hand 2: Jesus H Christ. I dont know wtf to do here. Every option seems pretty marginal.

1: i can see why you'd want to bet the turn (i.e. so your value range isn't like 2% of all holdings), but I think i'd still check. I don't see a huge problem with playing overly tight in a spot that comes up like once or twice every 100000 hands (betting 6 way flop, getting called in two places, and then betting a blank turn oop). Now I would call it off because it just seems like 80% of his range is draws. Calling flop with 99 doesn't seem very good, and raising turn with 97 doesn't seem that good either (or calling flop for that matter).

2. I think checking the turn would be kinda neato. If he's thinking on the level where you shouldn't be bluffing this turn ever, then you should narrow your value range considerably and surprise him by checking this turn with good hands, right? I'd definitely check if I thought 3 barreling a blank river was even in the least bit shaky (I realize that the J isn't a blank, but how bad of a card is it?).

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by zook

Only turned two pair hands like K9s or 97s make sense beating you... maybe 99 I guess.

Flatting a set in that spot is pretty standard.

On a two-tone flop with two left to act? Seems overly tricksy when there's so much value raising.

1: To those who wanna check turn, are you c/f? this is soooo player dependent, if im not sure i think checking might be the best play. As played I'd kill myself, include some JdQd,Td8d hands in his range and make a marginal call.

2: On my site I prolly shove and hope he lvls himself into calling. But u gotta tell us what he thinks of you? God I edited my answer 5 times and still not sure, but i think we're missing info.

Originally Posted by zook

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by zook

Only turned two pair hands like K9s or 97s make sense beating you... maybe 99 I guess.

Flatting a set in that spot is pretty standard.

On a two-tone flop with two left to act? Seems overly tricksy when there's so much value raising.

I think that 33 and 77 are his most likely hands. I think he gets away from 97s/99 on flop since my bet looks so strong. TaBort on the other hand may be loose enough to peel with a 7x of spades type holding* getting such good odds when the action reaches him. The turn decision is a question of how many combo draws he'd just get it in with here despite getting decent odds to just call:: how much FE does he believe he has vs. an unknown who appears to have KQ+.

*The action in this hand makes me think that about half of TBM's peels are 7x (usually of spades) and about half are KJ/KQ/KTs hoping for the hand to get checked down. If this hand read is accurate then we are up against a set 1/6 less often by card removal which could possibly be significant.

Hand 1 - wow am I the only one that thinks we're just completely smoked here on the turn like soooo often? It's not even like he's trying to rep some scare card on the turn, thats a mega blank and he's bombing it. I'd check this turn though pretty often and as played I'd fold.

Hand 2 - yah I agree with Alexos that this is image dependent. I'd jam this pretty often. c/f against some ppl potentially since most of his marginal range should check back on river.

1 depends on how he views you. against me he wouldnt use this line as a bluff because he knows i never fold, but good chance your account is viewed much differently.

2 you think of c/ring flop ?

isn't hand 1 a great spot for you to 2-barrel?

Originally Posted by Genitruc

isn't hand 1 a great spot for you to 2-barrel?

I guess this is one of the better ones for the amount of air we are betting OOP into a sixway pot, which is like 0.

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

Originally Posted by Genitruc

isn't hand 1 a great spot for you to 2-barrel?

I guess this is one of the better ones for the amount of air we are betting OOP into a sixway pot, which is like 0.

lol good point

somehow I was thinking we were HU like hand 2 but TPTK on K hi like hand 1

gg?

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

Originally Posted by Genitruc

isn't hand 1 a great spot for you to 2-barrel?

I guess this is one of the better ones for the amount of air we are betting OOP into a sixway pot, which is like 0.

when you bet into a 6-way flop, people give u alot more credit than a HU cbet. maybe that makes it an even better bluff ??

Originally Posted by gabe

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

Originally Posted by Genitruc

isn't hand 1 a great spot for you to 2-barrel?

I guess this is one of the better ones for the amount of air we are betting OOP into a sixway pot, which is like 0.

when you bet into a 6-way flop, people give u alot more credit than a HU cbet. maybe that makes it an even better bluff ??

Gabe- It's a worse bluff because the raw mathematical likelihood of there being a strong enough holding out of their 5 calling ranges on this texture is very high. Also, the gap between your bluffs improving by the river over their flop calling ranges is extremely low for the same reason.

Originally Posted by gabe

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

Originally Posted by Genitruc

isn't hand 1 a great spot for you to 2-barrel?

I guess this is one of the better ones for the amount of air we are betting OOP into a sixway pot, which is like 0.

when you bet into a 6-way flop, people give u alot more credit than a HU cbet. maybe that makes it an even better bluff ??

But does it not also mean they know your repping a strong hand, so when villan raises he can be doing it as a bluff cuz he knows we know he thinks we often have a strong hand. very polarised range anyway

or am i way off?

Originally Posted by sauce123

Originally Posted by gabe

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

Originally Posted by Genitruc

isn't hand 1 a great spot for you to 2-barrel?

I guess this is one of the better ones for the amount of air we are betting OOP into a sixway pot, which is like 0.

when you bet into a 6-way flop, people give u alot more credit than a HU cbet. maybe that makes it an even better bluff ??

Gabe- It's a worse bluff because the raw mathematical likelihood of there being a strong enough holding out of their 5 calling ranges on this texture is very high. Also, the gap between your bluffs improving by the river over their flop calling ranges is extremely low for the same reason.

Perfectly said imo.

Although I suspect gabe was half joking

hes trying to level you all into thinking his leads into 6 way pots are weak.