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 Originally Posted by badgers
This is a very interesting thread and it's making me think a lot...
Thanks, no I am not the only one bashing my head...
Originally Posted by badgers
I know this has seemed like a random ramble, but the point I am trying to make is that your range will very rarely be dominated and when it is, it has a comparatively large amount of equity.
The point is the uniquw COMBINATION of Pocket Pairs AND Suited Connectors that struck me. Yes, they are MUCH stronger than I also expected. So that IS worth the time looking into this matter!
Originally Posted by badgers
One slight observation I have to make is that in the example that you gave stated that there were no blinds. Obviously, if this were the case there would be no need to play anything other than AA, as Sklansky states in Theory of Poker. As we need to win the blinds more often, having a wider range than the 6% that you have chosen is actually beneficial.
That is the point. In the end, there ARE blinds and the equity only exists in this theoretic cube, on the table we could still use this surprisingly in SB vs BB. Of course the high card value MUST hold true and it DOES if one manipulates the range of the Big blind to another range that is also as tight but with HIGHER value SUITED cards:
If we choose HIGH-VALUE suited cards, then if we go down for the calling range of the BB to pocket pairs 22+ and any Suited card bigger than Ten we get this result:
16,328,530,944 games 0.010 secs 1,632,853,094,400 games/sec
Board:
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 51.666% 50.82% 00.84% 8298652688 137677032.00 { 77+, AKs, KQs, QJs, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, 54s }
Hand 1: 48.334% 47.49% 00.84% 7754524192 137677032.00 { 22+, ATs+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs }
ONLY if we heigthen the range to say pocket 44+ and suited cards bigger than Ten we get an EVEN status:
14,520,337,920 games 0.010 secs 1,452,033,792,000 games/sec
Board:
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 49.606% 48.73% 00.87% 7076204564 126703092.00 { 77+, AKs, KQs, QJs, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, 54s }
Hand 1: 50.394% 49.52% 00.87% 7190727172 126703092.00 { 44+, ATs+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs }
The ONLY possible range to make profit heads-up versus the Pocket Pairs 77+ and suited connectors bigger than 54s+ is THIS one:
Any pocket pair 77+ and ANY suited cards Ten or higher:
11,910,786,624 games 0.005 secs 2,382,157,324,800 games/sec
Board:
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 45.897% 44.93% 00.96% 5351946848 114789000.00 { 77+, AKs, KQs, QJs, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, 54s }
Hand 1: 54.103% 53.14% 00.96% 6329261776 114789000.00 { 77+, ATs+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs }
THIS would be 18 cards vs 18 cards and HERE we can see that High card value DOES count.
BUT: see how THIS range does vs. the broadway:
24,194,855,520 games 0.060 secs 403,247,592,000 games/sec
Board:
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 44.991% 43.21% 01.78% 10455296268 430218282.00 { TT+, ATs+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }
Hand 1: 55.009% 53.23% 01.78% 12879122688 430218282.00 { 77+, ATs+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs }
NOW pushing any card 77+ and ANY suited card higher than ten gives us 55% equity. Not bad.
Our PP 77+ and SC 54s+ does like this, we had that above already:
25,585,246,368 games 0.010 secs 2,558,524,636,800 games/sec
Board:
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 49.124% 48.21% 00.92% 12334149208 234464490.00 { TT+, ATs+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }
Hand 1: 50.876% 49.96% 00.92% 12782168180 234464490.00 { 77+, AKs, KQs, QJs, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, 54s }
Now, as you can see that the difference between OPTIMUM calling range (77+ and any suited cards higher including a ten) and PP&SC defined pushing range is just 5%. Well...5% is a lot BUT I expected the numbers to be completely different!
THAT is what drives my brain "batshit" insane. The difference is SO small, that it should NOT be that small and it should NOT have a positive equity vs. the broadway. This is WHY this is so stunning and I will ALSO change my game according to this! Also note, that to ANY of the writen ranges you get WORSE equity when you add OFFSUIT high cards!!
Take the optimum calling range: 77+,ATs+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs
add just ONE offsuit high card like AKo to this range and you LOOSE equity! So this result leadsme to to thinking forget pushing AKo for example. yes, I know that in high-stakes HU you push it happily. But how many times have you been called happily and lost? And how many times was it a PP or SC?
Look at THIS one:
Say you get EVERY time AKo you PUSH it vs Pocket pairs bigger than 77+ and any suited connector bigger than 54s:
1,623,264,192 games 0.005 secs 324,652,838,400 games/sec
Board:
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 49.379% 47.99% 01.39% 778943544 22607526.00 { AKo }
Hand 1: 50.621% 49.23% 01.39% 799105596 22607526.00 { 77+, AKs, KQs, QJs, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, 54s }
That makes AKo a LOOSER.
Now have a look at THIS one:
Instead of the Offsuit AKo we take the suited AKs versus our new PP&SC range:
547,937,280 games 0.005 secs 109,587,456,000 games/sec
Board:
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 52.098% 50.24% 01.86% 275273840 10189736.00 { AKs }
Hand 1: 47.902% 46.04% 01.86% 252283968 10189736.00 { 77+, AKs, KQs, QJs, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, 54s }
Ahhh....suddenly AKs is a winner.
So one more AGAINST high-card strength. I think I will forget about high-card strength if it is NOT suited. The difference is massive here. Think about how many hands per year a good player mutlitables. I don't know about you guys, to me 3% is A LOT on multitable volume.
Originally Posted by badgers
What it has shown is that playing SCs against a fairly narrow range is more profitable than I had thought. That could mean that 3betting SCs/ shoving with SCs makes sense!
YES SIR!! It does! ONLY IF we would have the information that a player includes these hands into his pushing range and defines his pushing range according to THIS post, then the ANTI-CALLING range so to say is
any pocket pair bigger than 77+ and any suited cards Ten+, which are ALSO exactely 18 cards. Acutally that is why I included 54s to make it 18 cards also, so now you have my COMPLETE background of thinking. But then again YES, it really shows that there is more to SCs. I would like to see the SPECIFIC hands that were won in the enumeration for PP's&SC's. But that are more than 25 Billion hands to go through...ahh...ok. Maybe not.
Originally Posted by badgers
Thank you sir, great thread!
Thank you FTR, the posts and the great videos here actually made me a better player, so I thought I join the community and participate a bit and do not just follow the posts as a passive reader.
By the way, I posted this thread in HU, because I think the people reading here are the ones most likely to understand it and are also most likely the only ones that will read this anyway, the HU has the least posts and threads, so I thought it might be right here!
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