Deep stacked AA vs ville18

ville18 is LAggy.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 5 handed) converter

MP ($30.05)
Hero ($67.65)
SB ($21.09)
ville18 ($61.8)
UTG ($21.15)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A, A. SB posts a blind of $0.1.
UTG calls $0.25, MP calls $0.25, Hero raises to $2, 1 fold, BB (ville18) calls $1.75, UTG folds, MP folds.

Flop: ($4.60) 4, J, 3 (2 players)
ville18 checks, Hero bets $5, ville18 raises to $10, Hero...........

What do you do here and why?

Put him all in, if he wins ban him from IRC.

Fold preflop, you don't wanna play against him, he's a pro. You just can't win.

Reraise on the flop.

At best he has top pair. Other possibility is a flush draw. AI here everytime.

It's a known ftr-er vrs another known ftr-er. Getting aggro with top pair is very possible. Reraise and then berate him for being a min-raising asshole.

-'rilla

Have just been reading a couple of threads about continuation betting in the strategy forum.

Put yourself in ville18's position. Dwarfman has raised pf and then bet on a raggy board. He could easily have AK or AQ. (and many more with it being shorthanded) If ville18 has anything at all he has to raise to find out where he's at.

I don't like the all in option here. The only hands that are going to call are sets. So a decent re-raise should do the trick.

What does he have?

Probably a strong pair like KK, QQ or JJ

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 5 handed) converter

MP ($30.05)
Hero ($67.65)
SB ($21.09)
BB (ville18) ($61.8)
UTG ($21.15)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A, A. SB posts a blind of $0.1.
UTG calls $0.25, MP calls $0.25, Hero raises to $2, 1 fold, BB (ville18) calls $1.75, UTG folds, MP folds.

Flop: ($4.60) 4, J, 3 (2 players)
ville18 checks, Hero bets $5, ville18 raises to $10, Hero calls $60.65 (All-In), ville18 folds.

Final Pot: $80.25

Results in white below:
No showdown. Hero wins $80.25.

You didn't berate him for being a min-raising asshole.

-'rilla

Originally Posted by sinky

I don't like the all in option here. The only hands that are going to call are sets. So a decent re-raise should do the trick.

Exactly. You're announcing high pocket pair with an all in. In early position I call and check raise him on the turn. That usually tells your opponent you are strong, while somewhat concealing high pocket. It has the effect of forcing him to give away his strength. It's all about representation. Check raises represent enough strength to put a reraise on a strong two pair or better after the turn. It's very hard to sniff out a set on the flop. If you ever suspect it, then realize that any reveal will be extracted on the turn or river and make your flop cheaper. When you check raise the turn, even a Lagg would think twice about trying to steal the pot as a dog after being check raised on the turn.

I think your all in move here is most definately -EV against most competent opponents.

You need as much information as possible when playing high pocket pairs. They are so strong, yet so vulnerable. You lose most of your big pots holding them. You gotta learn to gauge strength and save money when you're beat.

Originally Posted by Rondavu

Originally Posted by sinky

I don't like the all in option here. The only hands that are going to call are sets. So a decent re-raise should do the trick.

Exactly. You're announcing high pocket pair with an all in. In early position I call and check raise him on the turn. That usually tells your opponent you are strong, while somewhat concealing high pocket. It has the effect of forcing him to give away his strength. It's all about representation. Check raises represent enough strength to put a reraise on a strong two pair or better after the turn. It's very hard to sniff out a set on the flop. If you ever suspect it, then realize that any reveal will be extracted on the turn or river and make your flop cheaper. When you check raise the turn, even a Lagg would think twice about trying to steal the pot as a dog after being check raised on the turn.

I think your all in move here is most definately -EV against most competent opponents.

You need as much information as possible when playing high pocket pairs. They are so strong, yet so vulnerable. You lose most of your big pots holding them. You gotta learn to gauge strength and save money when you're beat.

disco


perfect analysis.. you make me scared to play at your table

once there is $20 in the pot, i don't have a problem going all-in to end it right there. yes only a set or 2pr will call but that is so unlikely that i think the all in is +EV not -EV. we are talking about $20 at a $25 NL table.

Lets remember 1 thing here, he is playing .25$ blinds. Some players would call TPTK right here. Also, what do you consider a decent re-raise? Anything over 30$ almost surely pot commits him. Putting over 60% of your stack into the pot... then what do you do if he just moves in? Do you call the little bit remaining or fold? You surely have to call.

So why not just put it AI in the first place?

If this were 2-4$+ blinds then obviously the play is different.

Originally Posted by Rondavu

Originally Posted by sinky

I don't like the all in option here. The only hands that are going to call are sets. So a decent re-raise should do the trick.

Exactly. You're announcing high pocket pair with an all in. In early position I call and check raise him on the turn. That usually tells your opponent you are strong, while somewhat concealing high pocket. It has the effect of forcing him to give away his strength. It's all about representation. Check raises represent enough strength to put a reraise on a strong two pair or better after the turn. It's very hard to sniff out a set on the flop. If you ever suspect it, then realize that any reveal will be extracted on the turn or river and make your flop cheaper. When you check raise the turn, even a Lagg would think twice about trying to steal the pot as a dog after being check raised on the turn.

I think your all in move here is most definately -EV against most competent opponents.

You need as much information as possible when playing high pocket pairs. They are so strong, yet so vulnerable. You lose most of your big pots holding them. You gotta learn to gauge strength and save money when you're beat.

Originally Posted by doggz

Lets remember 1 thing here, he is playing .25$ blinds. Some players would call TPTK right here. Also, what do you consider a decent re-raise? Anything over 30$ almost surely pot commits him. Putting over 60% of your stack into the pot... then what do you do if he just moves in? Do you call the little bit remaining or fold? You surely have to call.

So why not just put it AI in the first place?

If this were 2-4$+ blinds then obviously the play is different.

He is very very close to being committed. You have a good point. You still want to see how your opponent reacts on the turn. Does he move in directly when checked to? That sounds like scared cards, so I call. Does he bet $10 and just call when raised to $20? Hmmm, I found my weakness. Does he move in when check raised to $20? If he's overly aggressive I consider calling. If he's a tight player I fold right there and still have $37 left. I think he had Ajax myself.

I disagree, i dont want to see how my opponent reacts on the turn, the two dimonds are scare cards for the aces and i feel the pot needs to be shut down on the flop. Move in on him and put him to a decision for all his chips. Dont simply give him free card and another opportunity to beat you.
Yeah like sinky says a large re-raise may be enough, but if he has a set anyway your re-raise gets re-raised and your commited for your chips and have no option but to call.
Move all in first take the initiative and make him make the decision. Its much harder to call a raise that to make one.

I think the biggest mistake people make with high pocket pairs is pushing all their chips in like it's cryptonite for their opponent every chance they get. It's a bad habit that can destroy two hours of stack building in one click of the finger for a session.

I rape people who do this by playing implied odd hands against them. I catch a set, two pair, or a straight, and then bet like I'm drawing. I get them every time. It is getting more and more common to coax a big pair into pushing. You have to be careful with high pocket pairs, because the more observant people at the table know when you have them. They are going to get you to push when you're behind.

I'm not saying you should never push, but a big raise from an opponent often means better than one pair.

Obviously it was the right choice to push on this opponent this time, but our hero raised to 8xBB preflop. Depending on our heros image and tendancies, it might be elementary to instantly put him on high pocket and play accordingly. All I'm saying is you gotta be careful who you're pushing into after giving away the strength of your hand preflop.

Originally Posted by Rondavu

I think the biggest mistake people make with high pocket pairs is pushing all their chips in like it's cryptonite for their opponent every chance they get. It's a bad habit that can destroy two hours of stack building in one click of the finger for a session.

WTF, you been watching me play this weekend? Why the hell couldn't you have posted this before my aces got cracked six times!! Bahhh!!! Aces suck.

A pair is just a pair, awesome analysis.

Question: What if there is a draw on board, and your opponent just calls your bets instead of raising... Do you keep betting the pot with your overpair, asume he's on the draw, and pray he doesn't hit? Could he be slowplaying a set? Do you slow down anywhere if they haven't re-raised? Got burned by this three times lately.

Play short stacked so you don't have to make decisions like this.

Well, seems like I'm a bit late to the party, but here's what I think.

CALL.

You made a pot sized bet, and he's either got a PP under you (which hopefully hasn't hit a set), or else complete garbage. He might have a flush draw, but you already hold one of his outs, so the chance of a diamond coming on the turn are smaller than normal. And even if it does, then now YOU are drawing to a flush. He might even check and give you a free card (assuming you think he has the flush, you can check behind).

I think he has TPTK, and any reraise (like a reraise all in) is begging for trouble. He'll only call if he has you completely owned. You bet the pot, and he reraised the minimum. Call and see what he does next.

And nothing personal, but I pretty much can't ever put anyone on a set at $25 NL; they just don't usually have it. Sorry. No respect for that raise. At $25 NL, he could be doing it with freaking Top pair, Q kicker for all you know.

Question: What if there is a draw on board, and your opponent just calls your bets instead of raising... Do you keep betting the pot with your overpair, asume he's on the draw, and pray he doesn't hit? Could he be slowplaying a set? Do you slow down anywhere if they haven't re-raised? Got burned by this three times lately.

Allow the cards to inform you. Check raise a rag turn to see his reaction, and then make a tough decision. If a higher broadway comes off, you might be able to get a fantastic read by betting right out as if you hit the turn. If he goes over the top of you, then you have yourself a strong read. Make a tough decision. The key is to have a little info when making the tough decision. Don't worry about allowing the turn to fall after an opponent acts strong on the flop. Your new priority is MORE information.

I think he has TPTK, and any reraise (like a reraise all in) is begging for trouble. He'll only call if he has you completely owned. You bet the pot, and he reraised the minimum. Call and see what he does next.

I agree. I also think he has TPTK, since a 2x reraise is an indication of protection most of the times in these situations.

When people get the high pocket, they decide they don't want their opponent seeing a turn. What you give away by allowing an extra card to drop becomes less of a factor when your opponent acts strong on the flop, meaning he already hit something. The chances of the turn improving your opponent is slightly less than if you just slow play checked the flop and were checked behind.

High pocket hands can be classified as "loose" hands. There's often good action occuring. If you reference Sklanski's analysis on playing at a loose table, you'll find him saying that you should be less concerened about getting drawn out on, because it will make you put in big bets when you're behind with so many callers to the flop. He suggests not pushing so hard, but instead milking your opponents when you feel you're ahead.

It's obviously not exactly the same thing, but it's the same frame of mind you need to be in when you hold a high pocket and your opponent acts strong on a flop. Be cautious. Gain info. Don't get married.

Dealt to g0tch1pz [ ]

Originally Posted by ensign_lee

And nothing personal, but I pretty much can't ever put anyone on a set at $25 NL; they just don't usually have it. Sorry. No respect for that raise. At $25 NL, he could be doing it with freaking Top pair, Q kicker for all you know.

But it was ville. Everyone knows he's like the Phil Ivey of poker.

Thats hot.

{Moved to Short-handed}

Originally Posted by Surf_Thug

Play short stacked so you don't have to make decisions like this.

It's tough to play short-stacked when you completely own a table for 20 minutes. :P

Originally Posted by Les_Worm

Thats hot.

I'm suprised so many people advocate pushing as Hero did. I love Rondavous analysis and thoughts and its something I'll deffinatly incoporate into my play. Im bookmarking this discussion right now

Normally I would of re-raised a substancial amount (maybe 1.5x his raise) but an amount that doesnt commit me to the pot, but Rondavos approach sounds great:

This is becuase If i was the Op (ville) and the Hero here makes this check-raise on the turn then I have info to know my TPTK is iffy, and if i'm gonna play it i'm looking at getting near all my chips in by the river - so i'll make my desicions and fold if the HERO seems a reasonable player.

Great discussion keep it goin, I'd like to hear others views.

You have three options, fold, call or raise.

Folding is out of the question.

I think raising is almost putting you in a spot where only a better hand can call. AJ will go along for the ride probably, as would 2 diamonds, but 2 pair or a set have you beat, and raising will get you close to pot committed. If you end up all in, I'm pretty sure you're beat, as I think AJ will fold after a big reraise.

Calling will let you see his bet on the turn, and keep worse hands along. If he bets $15 on the turn, he might feel pot committed with AJ or any pocket pair if he thinks you're bluffing. That way he will end up with hands that you can beat. I think raising with drive these out, as I can only see QQ+ 3 betting that flop.