KK Blind War

eritas2 is a pretty weak player, but knows that I've been pushing him around...

PokerStars Game #2259700715: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2005/08/04 - 06:16:12 (ET)
Table 'Leona IV' Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: eritas2 ($71.95 in chips)
Seat 2: HenryFnord ($25.35 in chips)
Seat 3: SkadeGlad ($31.80 in chips)
Seat 4: AQUILES ZEUS ($4.75 in chips)
Seat 5: Smooth_slip ($16.70 in chips)
Seat 6: inecita2004 ($18.15 in chips)
Seat 7: PilsenKid ($26.40 in chips)
Seat 8: mezigue ($22.10 in chips)
Seat 9: extrem3z ($23.40 in chips)
eritas2: posts small blind $0.10
HenryFnord: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HenryFnord [Kh Ks]
SkadeGlad: folds
AQUILES ZEUS: folds
Smooth_slip: folds
inecita2004: folds
PilsenKid: folds
PilsenKid is sitting out
mezigue: folds
extrem3z: folds
eritas2: calls $0.15
HenryFnord: raises $0.75 to $1
eritas2: calls $0.75
*** FLOP *** [2h Ad 2d]
eritas2: checks
HenryFnord: checks
*** TURN *** [2h Ad 2d] [4h]
eritas2: checks
HenryFnord: bets $1
eritas2: calls $1
*** RIVER *** [2h Ad 2d 4h] [7s]
eritas2: checks
HenryFnord: checks

Looks standard.

I've missed something here. What's being said?

Why didn't you bet on the flop?

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Why didn't you bet on the flop?

I'll give someone else a chance to answer before I say why I checked the flop...

Your setting him up to try a huge river bluff?
On the other hand, if he does, can you be sure he doesn't have the A or a 2? hehe, too ballzy for me.

Edit: NM, you both check the river. Im lost.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Why didn't you bet on the flop?

I'll give someone else a chance to answer before I say why I checked the flop...

He called your pfr with 23o?

- Lukie

Well, it looks like you want a cheap showdown and as long as your opp suspects you are holding the deuce he will continue to check. The fact that he didn't raise you on the turn means he doesn't have it, but he probably has the A.

Originally Posted by DimitriT

Well, it looks like you want a cheap showdown and as long as your opp suspects you are holding the deuce he will continue to check. The fact that he didn't raise you on the turn means he doesn't have it, but he probably has the A.

You're almost there, you had me up until the part about thinking he probably has an Ace and thinks I have a deuce.

Consider some prior hands...

Weak limps, I raise to $1 with A8o, folded to the blinds, BB thinks and folds, weak folds, I show.

Weak limps, I raise to $1 with 2 cards, folded to the BB who calls, weak calls. Flop is 3 more cards, checked to me, I bet $2 and everyone folds.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by DimitriT

Well, it looks like you want a cheap showdown and as long as your opp suspects you are holding the deuce he will continue to check. The fact that he didn't raise you on the turn means he doesn't have it, but he probably has the A.

You're almost there, you had me up until the part about thinking he probably has an Ace and thinks I have a deuce.

Consider some prior hands...

Weak limps, I raise to $1 with A8o, folded to the blinds, BB thinks and folds, weak folds, I show.

Weak limps, I raise to $1 with 2 cards, folded to the BB who calls, weak calls. Flop is 3 more cards, checked to me, I bet $2 and everyone folds.

Ahhh, I get it. You want to show KK. That way you can really push them around. But still, you can show even if he folds.

Originally Posted by Fnord

You're almost there, you had me up until the part about thinking he probably has an Ace and thinks I have a deuce.

No way I can put him on a hand but an A seems possible. Did he call you with 34 and is drawing for the 5? The check-around on a paired flop is pretty common in 25NL: those who made trips always slow play and those who didn't know it.

Originally Posted by EricE

Ahhh, I get it. You want to show KK. That way you can really push them around. But still, you can show even if he folds.

Are you trying to do what Brunson suggests where you give your ATM some respect to keep him from getting unpredictable?

So I figure he's fixing to fight back or look me up pretty soon. Most players will only take so much abuse.

Consider that I probably have the best hand on the flop, but I'm way ahead or behind if you pretty much ignore the flush draw. I'm not really in a position to go to war here, particularly on the flop with 2 betting rounds to come. So I'm looking to draw a bluff or thin call-down and showdown a quality hand.

I seriously considered a river bet...

So for those of use who are too "results oriented".. what were the results?

Why be so cryptic with your initial post?

This play is straight out of Super System anyways:

"Let's say I've got two nines and I raise my opponent before the flop. He calls. The flop comes 10-2-3, and he checks it. I check along. Another rag falls off on fourth streeth. He checks again. Now, I'm reasonably sure my two nines are the best hand. But I'm not going to bet it. I'll check along with him to show him some respect...It has nothing to do with feeling sorry for the man because if I thought there was a good chance he'd call me, I'd surely bet. But instead of pushing him out of the pot once more and getting him hotter than he is, I check along with him to cool him off a little..If I keep pushing him out of every pot, sooner or later he's going to stop sticking his head up, and I won't be able to slap him anymore."

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Why be so cryptic with your initial post?

This play is straight out of Super System anyways:

"Let's say I've got two nines and I raise my opponent before the flop. He calls. The flop comes 10-2-3, and he checks it. I check along. Another rag falls off on fourth streeth. He checks again. Now, I'm reasonably sure my two nines are the best hand. But I'm not going to bet it. I'll check along with him to show him some respect...It has nothing to do with feeling sorry for the man because if I thought there was a good chance he'd call me, I'd surely bet. But instead of pushing him out of the pot once more and getting him hotter than he is, I check along with him to cool him off a little..If I keep pushing him out of every pot, sooner or later he's going to stop sticking his head up, and I won't be able to slap him anymore."

Bad logic. Yes its true if you push people around enough they start pushing back. But that is no reason to not bet your pocket 9s on that board when they are very likely to be good, just for "table image" puproses. Its just fine having the image of pushing everyone around, then they push back at the wrong times for them! heh

I am one who believes you should be aware of your table image at all times, but you should not sacrafice a possible more winning play just to change it. Certain table images arent better than others, what really pays is knowing what your table image is.

Originally Posted by spino1i

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Why be so cryptic with your initial post?

This play is straight out of Super System anyways:

"Let's say I've got two nines and I raise my opponent before the flop. He calls. The flop comes 10-2-3, and he checks it. I check along. Another rag falls off on fourth streeth. He checks again. Now, I'm reasonably sure my two nines are the best hand. But I'm not going to bet it. I'll check along with him to show him some respect...It has nothing to do with feeling sorry for the man because if I thought there was a good chance he'd call me, I'd surely bet. But instead of pushing him out of the pot once more and getting him hotter than he is, I check along with him to cool him off a little..If I keep pushing him out of every pot, sooner or later he's going to stop sticking his head up, and I won't be able to slap him anymore."

Bad logic. Yes its true if you push people around enough they start pushing back. But that is no reason to not bet your pocket 9s on that board when they are very likely to be good, just for "table image" puproses. Its just fine having the image of pushing everyone around, then they push back at the wrong times for them! heh

I am one who believes you should be aware of your table image at all times, but you should not sacrafice a possible more winning play just to change it. Certain table images arent better than others, what really pays is knowing what your table image is.

How is it bad logic? He wants his opponents to be passive rather than put him to decisions. If his opponents think he's betting and raising with nothing, they'll be more prone to play back at him with nothing, and then he's faced with decisions, and he'll be more likely to make mistakes.

And the claim that all table images are "the same" requires some argument to show. For example, is the image of player who is difficult to bluff as desirable as the image of a player who can be bluffed out of every pot? Isn't the one image likely to result in more difficult situations compared to the other?

You could even maybe say that it's mostly dependent on a person's preferences. Some may prefer to win lots of pots uncontested, while others may want lots of action. Each person would prefer to have a different table image.

Checking the flop to trick op into overvaluing any smaller pair and possibly some K highs was good.

I don't see why you didn't throw in 2 more bucks on the river.

-'rilla

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Originally Posted by spino1i

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Why be so cryptic with your initial post?

This play is straight out of Super System anyways:

"Let's say I've got two nines and I raise my opponent before the flop. He calls. The flop comes 10-2-3, and he checks it. I check along. Another rag falls off on fourth streeth. He checks again. Now, I'm reasonably sure my two nines are the best hand. But I'm not going to bet it. I'll check along with him to show him some respect...It has nothing to do with feeling sorry for the man because if I thought there was a good chance he'd call me, I'd surely bet. But instead of pushing him out of the pot once more and getting him hotter than he is, I check along with him to cool him off a little..If I keep pushing him out of every pot, sooner or later he's going to stop sticking his head up, and I won't be able to slap him anymore."

Bad logic. Yes its true if you push people around enough they start pushing back. But that is no reason to not bet your pocket 9s on that board when they are very likely to be good, just for "table image" puproses. Its just fine having the image of pushing everyone around, then they push back at the wrong times for them! heh

I am one who believes you should be aware of your table image at all times, but you should not sacrafice a possible more winning play just to change it. Certain table images arent better than others, what really pays is knowing what your table image is.

How is it bad logic? He wants his opponents to be passive rather than put him to decisions. If his opponents think he's betting and raising with nothing, they'll be more prone to play back at him with nothing, and then he's faced with decisions, and he'll be more likely to make mistakes.

And the claim that all table images are "the same" requires some argument to show. For example, is the image of player who is difficult to bluff as desirable as the image of a player who can be bluffed out of every pot? Isn't the one image likely to result in more difficult situations compared to the other?

You could even maybe say that it's mostly dependent on a person's preferences. Some may prefer to win lots of pots uncontested, while others may want lots of action. Each person would prefer to have a different table image.

I guess it comes down to the fact that I am comfortable playing any kind of table image. Some people only prefer a specific kind.

Edit: I see why Fnord doesnt bet the flop. Since he's been pushing the other guy around, he might not get the correct info as to whether or not the other guy has an ace if he bets the flop. So he just doesnt do it. Makes sense.

He wants to keep the other guy passive. It's probably +EV to keep the ability to steal pots from him when he has 2nd best hands. It's a cheap way to "trick" the guy into thinking he respects him a little

Hey, he could have Q2 or something and could be trapping. Of course it's EV+ to bet on the river, but the expected value of showing down a good hand is probably higher.

He had T 8 and MHIG.