5NL - KK laydown

PokerStars Game #19076331466: Hold'em No Limit ($0.02/$0.05) - 2008/07/24 - 20:07:50 (ET)
Table 'Titania' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: jstew1 ($6.80 in chips)
Seat 2: pitch62 ($9.66 in chips)
Seat 3: woody500 ($1.65 in chips)
Seat 4: ponyfitness ($8.40 in chips)
Seat 5: welli154 ($4.92 in chips)
Seat 6: Jimbo0046 ($12.36 in chips)
Seat 7: becks4896 ($9.48 in chips)
Seat 9: tom504 ($6.26 in chips)
becks4896: posts small blind $0.02
tom504: posts big blind $0.05
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ponyfitness [Kd Kc]
jstew1: folds
pitch62: folds
woody500: folds
ponyfitness: raises $0.20 to $0.25
welli154: folds
Jimbo0046: folds
becks4896: folds
tom504: raises $0.35 to $0.60
ponyfitness: raises $0.65 to $1.25
tom504: calls $0.65
*** FLOP *** [4s Ac Td]
tom504: checks
ponyfitness: bets $1
tom504: raises $1 to $2
ponyfitness: folds
Uncalled bet ($1) returned to tom504
tom504 collected $4.32 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $4.52 | Rake $0.20
Board [4s Ac Td]
Seat 1: jstew1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: pitch62 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: woody500 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: ponyfitness folded on the Flop
Seat 5: welli154 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Jimbo0046 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: becks4896 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: tom504 (big blind) collected ($4.32)

And before anyone jumps all over me for the flop bet I know it was weak. I had no read because I was only 5 hands into the table. Good laydown or would you push that all day long?

4bet to like $1.8, as played I want to know your thought process behind the flop bet.

Wanted to bet because obviously the overcard might scare him as much as me if he had QQ. Since he called my 4 bet I put him on AA, AK, AQ, QQ - maybe even KK as well. If he had called I would have likely put him on AA or AK right away but I didn't know how to feel about a raise. Turn would have been check/fold.

I almost pushed preflop - think that would have been a better idea?

I know this is one of my major leaks - folding to strong betting - so lay into me.

Originally Posted by ponyboy

Wanted to bet because obviously the overcard might scare him as much as me if he had QQ.

So you want him to fold everything worse and call with everything better?

Originally Posted by ponyboy

Since he called my 4 bet I put him on AA, AK, AQ, QQ - maybe even KK as well. If he had called I would have likely put him on AA or AK right away but I didn't know how to feel about a raise. Turn would have been check/fold.

Given your weaksauce 4bet I wouldn't expect him to fold any of his 3betting range, make of that what you will. if you are going to shut down if called and fold to a raise WHY ARE WE BETTING? Oh yeah, to push out QQ which is the hand we want to keep in the pot.

Originally Posted by ponyboy

I almost pushed preflop - think that would have been a better idea?

Depends on the opponent but in general I'd rather just make a decent sized 4bet if I intend on calling a shove OR just call the 3bet if I think he's only stacking off with AA.

Originally Posted by ponyboy

I know this is one of my major leaks - folding to strong betting - so lay into me.

I doubt this is one of your major leaks. This is a good fold once you bet the flop but I hate the flop bet. Nothing worse calls (occasionally QQ does but it's much easier to get value from QQ on later streets) so in a way you are turning your KK into a bluff which is not goot.

Originally Posted by badgers

Originally Posted by ponyboy

Wanted to bet because obviously the overcard might scare him as much as me if he had QQ.

So you want him to fold everything worse and call with everything better?

Originally Posted by ponyboy

Since he called my 4 bet I put him on AA, AK, AQ, QQ - maybe even KK as well. If he had called I would have likely put him on AA or AK right away but I didn't know how to feel about a raise. Turn would have been check/fold.

Given your weaksauce 4bet I wouldn't expect him to fold any of his 3betting range, make of that what you will. if you are going to shut down if called and fold to a raise WHY ARE WE BETTING? Oh yeah, to push out QQ which is the hand we want to keep in the pot.

Originally Posted by ponyboy

I almost pushed preflop - think that would have been a better idea?

Depends on the opponent but in general I'd rather just make a decent sized 4bet if I intend on calling a shove OR just call the 3bet if I think he's only stacking off with AA.

Originally Posted by ponyboy

I know this is one of my major leaks - folding to strong betting - so lay into me.

I doubt this is one of your major leaks. This is a good fold once you bet the flop but I hate the flop bet. Nothing worse calls (occasionally QQ does but it's much easier to get value from QQ on later streets) so in a way you are turning your KK into a bluff which is not goot.

So obviously increasing the 4 bet is the first thing to do. However, as played would you have bet harder on the flop or simply check/folded?

I would have checked behind cos I want to get value from QQ/JJ and I want to keep control of the size of the pot. I'd probs call one street but it depends what reads you have...

I'll try to expand on what badgers is saying. First off on the 4bet amount.. It's really poor. You min 4-bet.. Sure you wanted action with your KK, but make them pay if they want to play against your strong hands. He had already 3b and I'm sure that players at 5nl aren't 3betting light. If they do it they probably think their hand is golden no matter how bad it really is, so I'm betting he is willing to felt. Although I'm not sure I 4b here always, but it's fine. Just increase the amount to as badgers said to $1.8 or so.

Okay on the flop bet what badgers is saying is this.. When you make a bet you want to the bet to accomplish a few things. Namely...1) Better hands fold....2) Worse hands calls... 3) Protect your hand.... Your bet on the flop achieved neither of those. Let's look at each.

1) better hands fold - Okay, so by betting the flop what better hands fold. Let's name a few hands that are ahead of you and let's see if he folds them. He isn't folding an Ax. If he 3b preflop and called a 4b he isn't gonna fold if he hit his hand. Same goes for TT. That's obviously not folding. So no better hands are folding.

2) Worse hands call - What worse hands call your flop bet? Well there are cases when QQ,JJ, Tx, or worse (gutshot) call, this is usually rare, especially at microstakes. So when you bet usually hands like QQ, JJ, Tx, or KQ etc fold. And these are all hands we are ahead of and have them drawing rather thin. So no worse hands call (or very few do).

3) Protect our hand - This is a rainbow flop. Only a gutshot straight draw or 2pr draw out there, so not much protecting to do. Even if this had a flush draw I'm checking behind.

So we find that a bet here doesn't accomplish any of the things we need it to accomplish. Okay, so we don't bet. What does that do? Well for one hands like QQ, JJ, Tx, or total air, might think they are good on the turn due to the "weakness" you showed on the flop. So you can call a modest bet of the turn and re-evalute on the river, effectively inducing "bluffs" (or what your opponent's think is a v-bet).

So your play should have been to check behind on flop and evaluate on the turn. If he leads on the turn you can either toss it then or call a bet and see if he is willing to fire again on the river.

This is usually the play with KK on an Axx board. If you were oop here I would c/c flop, c/f turn I believe.

Thanks Stacks, that is an awesome summary.

Man it is hard to think of all of these things within a 20 second window but I'm working on it. I guess once you see enough of these types of hands they become fairly standard until you can bring reads into it.

5NL - KK laydown. LOL. this is unrealistic for a winning player.

Originally Posted by ponyboy

Thanks Stacks, that is an awesome summary.

Man it is hard to think of all of these things within a 20 second window but I'm working on it. I guess once you see enough of these types of hands they become fairly standard until you can bring reads into it.

try playing 20 tables like me and spoodle and the other regulators.

Originally Posted by reDZill4

Originally Posted by ponyboy

Thanks Stacks, that is an awesome summary.

Man it is hard to think of all of these things within a 20 second window but I'm working on it. I guess once you see enough of these types of hands they become fairly standard until you can bring reads into it.

try playing 20 tables like me and spoodle and the other regulators.

Okay red, quite flexing your e-penis!

http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php

I almost pushed pf, decided to try a cold call.....was afraid the weak bet meant no A and figured the most donkish bet I could make was the CiB and was the best chance I had at getting value from the hand...
Not sure how well I played the hand, but neat to know you're an FTR whore too


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (8 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG ($6.80)
UTG+1 ($9.66)
MP1 ($1.65)
MP2 ($8.40)
CO ($4.92)
Button ($12.36)
SB ($9.48)
Hero ($6.26)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A, A.
3 folds, MP2 raises to $0.25, 3 folds, Hero raises to $0.6, MP2 raises to $1.25, Hero calls $0.65.

Flop: ($2.52) 4, A, T (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets $1, Hero raises to $2, MP2 folds.

Final Pot: $4.52

Originally Posted by tom

I almost pushed pf, decided to try a cold call.....was afraid the weak bet meant no A and figured the most donkish bet I could make was the CiB and was the best chance I had at getting value from the hand...
Not sure how well I played the hand, but neat to know you're an FTR whore too


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (8 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG ($6.80)
UTG+1 ($9.66)
MP1 ($1.65)
MP2 ($8.40)
CO ($4.92)
Button ($12.36)
SB ($9.48)
Hero ($6.26)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A, A.
3 folds, MP2 raises to $0.25, 3 folds, Hero raises to $0.6, MP2 raises to $1.25, Hero calls $0.65.

Flop: ($2.52) 4, A, T (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets $1, Hero raises to $2, MP2 folds.

Final Pot: $4.52

Lol. Wow, looks like I actually made a good laydown.

Originally Posted by ponyboy

Originally Posted by tom

I almost pushed pf, decided to try a cold call.....was afraid the weak bet meant no A and figured the most donkish bet I could make was the CiB and was the best chance I had at getting value from the hand...
Not sure how well I played the hand, but neat to know you're an FTR whore too


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (8 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG ($6.80)
UTG+1 ($9.66)
MP1 ($1.65)
MP2 ($8.40)
CO ($4.92)
Button ($12.36)
SB ($9.48)
Hero ($6.26)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A, A.
3 folds, MP2 raises to $0.25, 3 folds, Hero raises to $0.6, MP2 raises to $1.25, Hero calls $0.65.

Flop: ($2.52) 4, A, T (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets $1, Hero raises to $2, MP2 folds.

Final Pot: $4.52

Lol. Wow, looks like I actually made a good laydown.

too bad your betsizing is complete shit.

betsizing by both was poor.

Originally Posted by reDZill4

Originally Posted by ponyboy

Thanks Stacks, that is an awesome summary.

Man it is hard to think of all of these things within a 20 second window but I'm working on it. I guess once you see enough of these types of hands they become fairly standard until you can bring reads into it.

try playing 20 tables like me and spoodle and the other regulators.

You sure you meant regulators, or regulars....


In the case of regulators, here is what you can look forward to lol


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhWGDGHupYA