First, thank you for the response kiwi.

Quote Originally Posted by kiwiMark
However the claim that "way-back-when, people valued not stealing" is not something I agree with. Otherwise why would the law have been created in the first place, if everybody valued it? This is a fairly weak argument, I accept, and I'm trying to find my real point here, I think it goes something like this:
I really am not saying everyone valued it. I'm sure they didn't, and thats why the law was created. I don't agree with the law but I understand why people would value not stealing.


If I steal from somebody, I gain. So I will try do this.
If somebody steals from me, I lose. So I will try to stop this.
The same holds true for my neighbour, Jim.

Therefore I try to steal from Jim, and stop him stealing from me. He does the same.
This is where I think the term self interest has become incredibly misused. To say in absolute terms you gain from stealing from someone is losing scope of the desired outcome. What do you want by stealing? If you want material gain I think I could argue that you are ultimately not even getting that. Do you want a world where people don't steal? You certainly are not getting that for a number of reasons.

I think what your getting at is people acting on their own self interests will do something not good for society as a whole. Again, I think this is misusing the word self interest. Can't I be interested in what is best for me and everyone?

I would comment on the rest but your argument seems to rest on this assumption and I'm wondering if we can come to some sort of agreement or agree to disagree on it.