The Wall

[OngBonga]

cigarettes are worse than meth

They are by one measure... deaths.

If there were as many meth users as there are smokers, then meth would be far worse. Fortunately, meth isn't quite as much a social problem as cigarettes are.

[BananaStand]

Fortunately, meth isn't quite as much a social problem as cigarettes are.

This ignores geography. Maybe when you zoom out and look at an entire country per-capita, things don't look so bad. But there are pockets of populations where meth is a vicious scourge.

[OngBonga]

This ignores geography. Maybe when you zoom out and look at an entire country per-capita, things don't look so bad. But there are pockets of populations where meth is a vicious scourge.

Fair enough. The same is true of alcohol.

[BananaStand]

Fair enough. The same is true of alcohol.

No it isn't. It's only "true" if you embrace statistics that can be manipulated like play-dough

I'm completely over this game where we compare booze and cigarettes to hard drugs. They are not on the same level. If you wanna go on believing that a painted dog is the same as a duck, enjoy yourself.

[OngBonga]

No it isn't. It's only "true" if you embrace statistics that can be manipulated like play-dough

I'm completely over this game where we compare booze and cigarettes to hard drugs.

How many families do you suppose are negatively influenced by alcohol?

Many deaths from alcohol are from drunk driving, due to the impairing effects of alcohol. I don't see why "heroin driving", "meth driving", etc would be less dangerous than drunk driving.

Many more deaths are from liver failure, stroke, heart failure and other related diseases that occur as a consequence of alcoholism.

Clearly, heroin is dangerous. You arnt going to smoke a single cigarette or drink a single beer and suddenly die. Heroin, on the ither hand, carries such a risk.

This is not quite true. Smoking heroin carries very little risk of OD. Injecting it, that's different. That's where the real risk of OD is. Of course, if it were legal, then we would should expect people to be educated honestly about this seemingly trivial matter. But it's not trivial, because there's a huge difference between smoking and injecting heroin. Not all heroin addicts actually cross that line, it would be impossible to give an actual figure but I am aware of plenty of addicts who only smoke the shit. It's rife in my town, but OD's are rare.

Another factor to consider is that most people who are addicted to heroin also drink alcohol in excess, so it's very difficult to know what's actually doing the most damage to them on a long term basis.

People assume heroin is more dangerous because the effects are more profound and people inject the stuff. Well of course it's more dangerous where you're injecting it. But where you're smoking it, no, it's not more dangerous than alcohol. What is more dangerous is the willingness to do it in the first place, knowing the addictive nature of the drug.

[BananaStand]

How many families do you suppose are negatively influenced by alcohol?

Why does this even matter? How is it even relevant. How many families would be positively influenced if meth is legal?

[JKDS]

Many more deaths are from liver failure, stroke, heart failure and other related diseases that occur as a consequence of alcoholism.

Are you suggesting that overusing meth, heroin, or cocaine doesnt have similar effects?

It seems that the argument is now this

A) Provided that we know what the drug is, and we control the dose appropriately, the dangers are minimal.

Im not sure I agree with "minimal". But I'll give you that one of the reasons for high OD rates is the unknown strength of the drug as well as the random chance that its laced with something like fentanyl.

[OngBonga]

Are you suggesting that overusing meth, heroin, or cocaine doesnt have similar effects?

I think you'll struggle to find an honest study on the matter.

Certainly, people who inject heroin will die younger, on average, compared to those who don't. People with a coke habit, they don't tend to live long and healthy lives either. Meth, it's not something I have any experience with other than watching Breaking Bad, but obviously that has long term effects too, again, especially if injecting it.

Obviously, taking hard drugs regularly negatively impacts upon your health. I'm not suggesting it doesn't. I'm suggesting that the long term effects of alcohol are on a par, perhaps worse, perhaps not quite so bad, as hard drugs, but alcohol is more dangerous because it is so widespread and culturally ingrained in our everyday lives.