Something I should say more often

[MadMojoMonkey]

UBI wouldn't eliminate all other welfare programs. Only the biggest and most distrusted ones.
We'd still need safety nets for people in non-standard situations which UBI can't cover. Healthcare costs are one that comes to mind. Without healthcare insurance coverage for people on only UBI, any hospitalization would break their bank.

Handling UBI for families with varying numbers of children is an issue that people will endlessly fight about.

Another thing UBI eliminates is minimum wage.

[MadMojoMonkey]

I've thought long and hard on this, and I can't yet find how automation causes any need for UBI.

The idea that automation reduces employment opportunities is a legend. It's never happened, and nobody can tell if it will happen in the future.

Theoretically, in my estimation, if it did happen -- where automation made people unable to produce for greater livelihoods -- it would necessarily mean that the people already get better stuff from the automation than that which they can work for. This is probably inevitable to a degree in the far, far distant future with unbelievable technology and people have little need to work.

You make some good points.
It's not a given that increasing automation decreases jobs.

The combine harvester has done more job taking than anything in human history. It's been many decades and that automation hasn't eliminated the number of jobs, it's increased the variety of jobs.

This is typical. This is what happens when people suddenly have free time on their hands. They innovate and find new ways to spend their time, and to participate in society and culture.

This is another big reason I favor UBI, and discard the idea that "if people don't have to work, they wont work."

[wufwugy]

The press is so bad that it's probably a smart decision to always reassess any belief one has that the press also has.

[CoccoBill]

At least here we have fairly decent unemployment benefits, but if you have really any income, even part-time or sporadic work, you lose all benefits. That means if you can't get a proper job you're trained for and would actually want to do, it's better to just stay home than try to get some extra income.

The same applies for small businesses. If you start a company, it doesn't even have to generate any income for you to lose your eligibility for unemployment benefits, which makes starting a business damn risky.

UBI would fix these, with far far less administrative costs than with running several benefits programs.

[wufwugy]

At least here we have fairly decent unemployment benefits, but if you have really any income, even part-time or sporadic work, you lose all benefits. That means if you can't get a proper job you're trained for and would actually want to do, it's better to just stay home than try to get some extra income.

The same applies for small businesses. If you start a company, it doesn't even have to generate any income for you to lose your eligibility for unemployment benefits, which makes starting a business damn risky.

UBI would fix these, with far far less administrative costs than with running several benefits programs.

Great points.

I probably ultimately prefer a UBI system with zero other welfare programs over the mess of poverty traps and abuse we have have now.

The main consideration is what level of UBI wouldn't have too big of a negative impact on the incentive to produce.

[wufwugy]

My two areas of interest on UBI:

(1) Incentive to produce to make money so you can get things you want *seems* real, but we don't fully understand it.

Even though this model is arguably the most useful at organizing vast networks of people, that doesn't mean there isn't a better model.

(2) I can't make headway on finding how UBI could increase production. It can probably incentivize innovation by making less costly production more costly, but that incentive also exists without UBI.

There seems to be no certainty on what the effect UBI would have, perhaps other than the same de-employment of people on the margins effect that other welfare programs have.

[boost]

There are two types of labor, physical and cognitive. We've seen automation mainly in physical labor, but cognitive human labor has been losing out to automation as well. For example, truckers and radiologist.

Maybe AI was over promised in recently years, but even if you're long on it, it's intellectually lazy to simply say "oh, that's far off." Before we get to the human labor free future, there will be all sorts of growing pains on the way. If we don't have an idea of what a labor free society looks like, what chances do we have of transitioning without imploding?

I'm a pessimist here: I think it's a long tightrope with a plunge into societal collapse waiting at every potential misstep. But if we don't at least get the tightrope setup, there won't even be the slim chance of getting society to the other side.

[wufwugy]

You're right. That's the big question.

[wufwugy]

I want to see a law passed that if any person is put out of work by government decree, that person will receive 200% his documented annual income by that government.

It would ensure honesty and diligence by many state governments (and the federal government) in times like this.

[oskar]

The way they do it around here is: the government covers 90% of the wage for the duration of the lockdown for companies to keep their employees. They're technically expected to do 10% of the work - whatever that means, but it's worth it just for not having to re-hire when this is over.
I get that disaster response is messy and to act fast is more important than to get it exactly right, but: a one-time $1200 stimulus cheque? WTF are you doing? The cost of people not staying home is so much higher than to pay them a living wage throughout this. What did the 2008 Wall-Street bailout cost the average US taxpayer? I'm not going to do fucking math at 6AM, but it was significantly more than $1200 per taxpayer.

[wufwugy]

It must be tough being a political leader these days. They get the best information of anybody in the world, yet the people cannot trust them because they don't bear the direct cost of the decisions they make.

[wufwugy]

I don't know what it will take to have a country united against the Chinese Communist Party.

[wufwugy]

The most pro-government argument I ever made is the same one I make today: when there is one goal, having an absolute authority who can command and direct at will works. This implies that if you're in a system with other (competing) governments, perhaps the best way to counter those governments is with government.

It's a short stick we've been dealt, but I hope we can come together to support our governments in fighting the greatest enemy in the world today: China.

[OngBonga]

It's interesting that USA folk seem to think China is the enemy. They are an economic rival, that doesn't make them the enemy. Not unless, that is, your only ambition is to remain the #1 economy in the world at all costs.

If there's a concern that China acted deliberately in allowing this virus to spread, perhaps it is more than economics, but at the monet that seems like paranoia, fueled by internal politics.

[wufwugy]

It's interesting that USA folk seem to think China is the enemy. They are an economic rival, that doesn't make them the enemy. Not unless, that is, your only ambition is to remain the #1 economy in the world at all costs.

If there's a concern that China acted deliberately in allowing this virus to spread, perhaps it is more than economics, but at the monet that seems like paranoia, fueled by internal politics.

Forceful organ harvesting from tortured victims

Assigned rapists to wives of Muslims thrown in concentration camps

Chinese people have no rights. Chinese government disobeys international laws at will.

The Chinese Communist Party is an existential threat to your way of life and my way of life.

[OngBonga]

Chinese communism is not a threat to my way of life. That's frankly ridiculous. It's not going to take hold here, our people are too self entitled and will resist communism. It's none of my business what economic models other nations use.

[wufwugy]

Chinese communism is not a threat to my way of life. That's frankly ridiculous. It's not going to take hold here, our people are too self entitled and will resist communism. It's none of my business what economic models other nations use.

What do you suppose I meant by way of life?

[OngBonga]

What do you suppose I meant by way of life?

Capitalism. What do you mean by way of life?

[oskar]

The Chinese Communist Party is an existential threat to your way of life and my way of life.

Oh no! Not the chinese communist party!

[Poopadoop]

Interesting that the Trumpers seem so keen to identify China as a huge #1 threat while at the same time their dear leader has been busy alienating most of their own key allies.

[OngBonga]

Yeah the Chinese govt are cunts. But so are the Saudis, and they're our buddies. Geopolitics and morality are mutually exclusive.

[MadMojoMonkey]

So what?
What gives anyone the "right" to a "way of life?"
Why is it that while it changes all the time, you feel you have the right to keep it from changing?
Is it anything other than disguised xenophobia?



Is it fair for other peoples to describe America as an "existential threat to their way of life?"
If not, how is it different?
If so, what is it they should do about that?

[wufwugy]

The China ruling power holocausts its people and is responsible for our current global pandemic.

[Poopadoop]

They certainly didn't help, but it's not like there wasn't plenty of time to prepare for every country outside CHI. Much of SE asia seems to have escaped the worst of it, as have some European countries like GRE and ICE. So, unless you blame China for the USA being slow to move, seems you have to bear some of the responsibility yourself.

[wufwugy]

They certainly didn't help, but it's not like there wasn't plenty of time to prepare for every country outside CHI. Much of SE asia seems to have escaped the worst of it, as have some European countries like GRE and ICE. So, unless you blame China for the USA being slow to move, seems you have to bear some of the responsibility yourself.

There's responsibility to go around.

And there is only one ruling power that has a causal relationship with the virus creation/outbreaking.

[Poopadoop]

There's responsibility to go around.

And there is only one ruling power that has a causal relationship with the virus creation/outbreaking.

So your view is that they "created" it? I don't think that's a common perception among the experts.

[wufwugy]

So your view is that they "created" it? I don't think that's a common perception among the experts.

My view is the mainstream one.

The CCP knows what the wet markets are causing. They've caused so many outbreaks. China acts like addressing it is not a priority.

[MadMojoMonkey]

My view is the mainstream one.

The CCP knows what the wet markets are causing. They've caused so many outbreaks. China acts like addressing it is not a priority.

So not even veiled xenophobia, then?

[Poopadoop]

Ok. I thought you meant it was deliberate.

But, we've been over this before. The wet markets are't the only place people contract diseases from animals. They may be a bad idea, but so are having large pig and chicken feedlots, riding camels, and herding cows.

[wufwugy]

That is true.

[OngBonga]

Don't get me wrong, if I could pick a government that I could eliminate with a snap of the finger, it'd probably be them. But only if it could happen without bloodshed, in some magical fantasy land with unicorns. It doesn't work like that though, we can't remove them without it causing a full scale world war. To consider them an enemy is to consider such a war an inevitability, but that in itself is dangerous thinking.

[wufwugy]

Don't get me wrong, if I could pick a government that I could eliminate with a snap of the finger, it'd probably be them. But only if it could happen without bloodshed, in some magical fantasy land with unicorns. It doesn't work like that though, we can't remove them without it causing a full scale world war. To consider them an enemy is to consider such a war an inevitability, but that in itself is dangerous thinking.

The CCP is responsible for millions of deaths of civilians in other countries.

If they caused that through physical invasion, we'd say we're already at war with the CCP.

[OngBonga]

If China are willfully responsible for this pandemic, then fair enough, we're at war with them. If this is just an accident, which is what I believe, and that the Chinese govt have just been incompetent, well that's not a matter of military conflict.

[MadMojoMonkey]

Until China and India have banded together, I think your precious way of life is fine.

According to my crystal ball:
If those 2 combine military and economic will... that's already over 1/3 of all humans under 1 authority.
The rest of the world will be theirs in a matter of time.

[boost]

oh, fun, foreign relations between parties that don't include the US (or whatever your home country is) are fascinating. I think we're (I certainly am) so used to understanding the world in how it relates to our own country that it's easy to forget how complex the web of international diplomacy really is.

China and India joining a military pact is scary, but it's fairly unlikely. On the other hand, Russia and China are just a scary, and it's already happening.

Compare these:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-R...ons_since_1991
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shangh...n_Organisation

to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%...ndia_relations

[Poopadoop]

Yeah I always thought China and India didn't really get along, and the main thing stopping them from fighting was the huge mountain range between them.

China and Russia used to have a lot of border skirmishes. I don't think Russia is anywhere near as scary as they used to be, but I'd rather they didn't join China either.

[boost]

Yeah I always thought China and India didn't really get along, and the main thing stopping them from fighting was the huge mountain range between them.

China and Russia used to have a lot of border skirmishes. I don't think Russia is anywhere near as scary as they used to be, but I'd rather they didn't join China either.

Yeah, I mean a lot of what's scary about Russia is their know how. Their know how combined with China's population is scary.

[boost]

Ong, it should be pointed out that it's not just Americans who see a rivalry, the Chinese state does too. It's implicit in many of their communications/international agreements.

[wufwugy]

Whatever happens with COVID, the outcome will strengthen what each person believes already.

[jackvance]

Whatever happens with COVID, the outcome will strengthen what each person believes already.

Wait, so everybody wins, no matter what?

[OngBonga]

Wait, so everybody wins, no matter what?

I'm winning. I haven't had to speak to the jobcentre in over a month, and even when this is over I'll probably deal with them by phone for the rest of the year. Plus I've got free credit on my phone in the evenings and weekends due to covid. Also, I strongly suspect that covid is the reason why I'm winning more at poker... more terrible players.

This pandemic is great.

[MadMojoMonkey]

That has nothing to do with CV, wuf.

It's not the whole truth, either. People change somewhat. Sometimes a lot. Mostly not, though.

[wufwugy]

What does it mean when our federal government is better at providing real news than our national press is?

[wufwugy]

I'm not sure which one of these perspectives is more racist and hurtful. Are they both equally harmful?

[oskar]

Not sure what two perspectives you're talking about. It's bad, but it's not really news that Biden is racist. It's kind of funny that right after this clip he goes on to say you just have to look at his record to see who's better for minorities, when that's the last thing he wants given his record. He lies effortlessly. As does Trump. This seems to be a very beneficial trait in politics.

You'd have to elaborate what you mean by "providing real news"
If you just look at factual reporting: the big ones like NYT and WAPO are actually pretty good. Just by day to day reporting of world events you're unlikely to find anything factually wrong. The opinion sections are a different story.

[wufwugy]

Obamagate is real news. The press (at least the WH Press Corps side) isn't touching it.

[oskar]

I just attempted to watch the entire Breakfast Club interview and I nearly cringed myself into another dimension. I can't get through it.
The positive angle on this is that this makes it much harder for him to pick Klobuchar for VP. If the DNC actually wanted to win they'd pick Nina Turner and I'd completely flip my 2020 prediction. That's not going to happen, but anyone is better than Klob... who's still probably going to be the VP pick simply because she's the absolute worst viable choice and that's just what they do.

[wufwugy]

I don't like that it takes the Trump administration to push it for the information to even get out. Shouldn't be like that.

[Poopadoop]

Even assuming 10% of "Obamagate" is true (which is probably a stretch), it's a bit of odd timing for Obama to be under scrutiny now, isn't it? He's not POTUS anymore.

It's also a bit rich coming from the guy who tried to extort a country to give him dirt on an opponent in return for foreign aid.

[wufwugy]

it's a bit of odd timing for Obama to be under scrutiny now, isn't it?

He's been under scrutiny (started years ago) since it was first revealed that he was spying on the opposition party. Trump admin has slowly ramped up talking about it, and the timing appears to be election based to me.

The press hasn't touched the true parts of it, but did report as true the false parts of it for years.

[MadMojoMonkey]

So far every factual statement from the White House saying anything about Obamagate has been shown to be either false, or standard operating procedures followed by prior presidents.

What are you saying Obamagate is that doesn't fit those 2 criteria?

[wufwugy]

standard operating procedures followed by prior presidents.

It's probably this. The real story appears to be that names are not masked in the first place.

[oskar]

She's going through a whole lot of things in that video that may or may not be related. What part specifically do you think should have been reported on but didn't?

[wufwugy]

She's going through a whole lot of things in that video that may or may not be related. What part specifically do you think should have been reported on but didn't?

The spying on opposition party and that Flynn wasn't masked, probably. Could be much more important stuff in there than that, though.

[oskar]

I just want to say that it is absolutely beyond parody that a reporter in a white house press conference who's totally not a plant would ask a question like "Has president Trump considered pardoning Obama for his crimes"

This is just one level short of asking why Trump is so handsome.

[wufwugy]

I just want to say that it is absolutely beyond parody that a reporter in a white house press conference who's totally not a plant would ask a question like "Has president Trump considered pardoning Obama for his crimes"

This is just one level short of asking why Trump is so handsome.

Even Trump is jealous of Chanel Rion's hair.

[Poopadoop]

I was waiting for "Has Obama stopped beating his wife yet?"

[oskar]

If that's the big reveal, then I'd say it's not a frontpage story because it's just not a big story. How do you prove intent in that? Is there a communication line from Obama to whoever unredacted the name? I certainly wouldn't put it past democratic leadership to do that, but as long as it's just speculative it would be bad journalism to report on it. This is one for the tabloids until more information comes out... but I wouldn't hold my breath. Unless I'm missing something, they are not going by new information. They are digging up a 4 year old story just before the covid death toll officially breaks 6 figures and right after a failed coup attempt that Elliot Abrams definitely knows nothing about, and will probably be forgotten once all that is off the news cycle.

[OngBonga]

So it's got nothing to do with underage pizza? Boring.

[CoccoBill]

So a nothingburger with no lizard meat. Let's assume the spying happened. What punishments should come out of it, in relation to these?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposi...tial_elections
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposi...ecutive_branch

[wufwugy]

Mail-in ballot fraud is real. I've seen so much in my state of only mail-in. It goes unnoticed usually.

Maybe that's why handlers on Twitter are flagging tweets that point out that mail-in is ripe for fraud. Handlers on Twitter are uneducated.

[oskar]

Mail-in ballot fraud is real. I've seen so much in my state of only mail-in. It goes unnoticed usually.

How do you know about something that goes unnoticed?

[Poopadoop]

How do you know about something that goes unnoticed?

Being a free thinker gives you great insight at times.

[wufwugy]

How do you know about something that goes unnoticed?

Unnoticed that what they're doing is fraud.

Mail-in ballot fraud is so common here that most don't think they're doing anything fraudulent.

[MadMojoMonkey]

If your state isn't using bar-coded (or equivalent) ballots and attaching individual bar codes to each ballot and registered voter, then sure... maybe...

What state are you in?

[wufwugy]

If your state isn't using bar-coded (or equivalent) ballots and attaching individual bar codes to each ballot and registered voter, then sure... maybe...

What state are you in?

WA. As far as I know we do use those sorts of ballots. The fraud I know of doesn't depend on that too.

Forgeries, altering, and intimidation. Extremely common here because we're all mail-in.

[boost]

"Obamagate, Obamagate!"

Bro, there's nothing here. Please show me something, anything--

"MAIL IN BALLOT FRAUD!"

Come on wuf, this is shoddy work. Did you miss your morning coffee?

[wufwugy]

"Obamagate, Obamagate!"

Bro, there's nothing here. Please show me something, anything--

"MAIL IN BALLOT FRAUD!"

Come on wuf, this is shoddy work. Did you miss your morning coffee?

Someone who doesn't delve deeply into things they don't agree with is poorly informed.

[MadMojoMonkey]

Someone who doesn't delve deeply into things they don't agree with is poorly informed.

Correct.
But also
Someone who doesn't delve deeply into things they agree with is poorly informed.

[MadMojoMonkey]

https://www.kuow.org/stories/it-s-ea...shington-state
"There's no evidence that voter fraud has ever affected the outcome of a vote-by-mail election here in Washington state. And nationally, the issue of election fraud is highly politicized."


https://www.sos.wa.gov/office/news-r...spx#/news/1252
Washington Secretary of State Kim Wyman says this study and subsequent investigation is further evidence that there is no widespread voter fraud in Washington state.


That's just the top 2 google results.

What's up with that, wuf?

[wufwugy]

You'd be amazed at how many people I know who have forged, altered, or intimidated during use of mail-in ballot.

The state doesn't know about it because nobody rats on their friends and family. As to what impact it has on the elections, nobody knows.

[OngBonga]

I dunno about Obamagate, but mail voting should not be allowed for anyone able enough to walk. Lazy fuckers. Get to the polling station. I do it even when I'm not going to vote.

[Poopadoop]

I dunno about Obamagate, but mail voting should not be allowed for anyone able enough to walk. Lazy fuckers. Get to the polling station. I do it even when I'm not going to vote.

You don't get time off from work by law to vote in the US. Also some of their districts have very sparse voting stations. If it was a choice between standing in line for four hours, unpaid, to vote, and mail in voting I think I'd do the latter.

[MadMojoMonkey]

You don't get time off from work by law to vote in the US. Also some of their districts have very sparse voting stations. If it was a choice between standing in line for four hours, unpaid, to vote, and mail in voting I think I'd do the latter.

It depends on the employer whether you get time off to vote / can count time voting as on-the-clock.

There's no minimum requirement for absentee ballots in MO. If you choose to use mail-in ballots, that's just one equal option among many.

It's not like using a polling station is more secure. Electronic voting machines are more prone to voter fraud than mail-in ballots, from all I've heard and seen. FFS, I saw a news story where they literally showed you where to find those E-voting machines when they're not in use, and the security on them is an absolute crap-shoot, ranging from them being kept in locked and guarded buildings to them sitting in public hallways.

That same news article showed how you can walk right up to them and hack them - if you know how - and literally replace their OS to whatever you like. If the UI looks like the original, then no one is likely to even suspect the machine was tampered with.

Paper ballots suffer from their own problems. Hanging chads, people who don't know how to fill them out properly, people misspelling something or other human errors.


Mail in ballots may be subject to their own kinds of fraud, but it's not like any other voting method is "more" secure. They just have different avenues to hack them.

[OngBonga]

You don't get time off from work by law to vote in the US. Also some of their districts have very sparse voting stations. If it was a choice between standing in line for four hours, unpaid, to vote, and mail in voting I think I'd do the latter.

Well then, they need to force employers to let their staff vote, and they need reasonable access to polling stations. I'm sure there will be some isolated tiny villages, I guess they can be allowed to vote by mail. But the vast majority of people, there should be no need. It's crazy for the reasons wuf has stated. It calls into question the integrity of the entire process.

And yeah, anything more than an hour long wait is going to put people off. We don't have this problem. Maybe they should spend less money on propaganda before the election and more money on actually holding it.