Side effect of banning of poker(is obviously FTR turning on each other)

[Roid_Rage]

I'm a Neo-Nazi super racist, what can I say

[Roid_Rage]

Basically the point I'm making is people need to not be so sensitive over things that aren't obviously derogatory when they are said. Like if I called someone who is obviously Asian, an Asian or Oriental, am I being racist? No. If I called an Asian a gook, chink, slant-eyes, w/e, that's obviously me being a racist dick. Yet some people of that race (or not even of that race) will get all bent out of shape about it.

Apply this to every other race, and thats what I was getting at. I just suck with the words.

[surviva316]

cliffnotes for those who don't feel like reading a wall of text:

dan: . . . chineseman . . .

various ftr'ers: fwiw, that's prolly not the best term to use

dan: omg wtf, how is that offensive? whoever gets offended by that is pathetic

boost: {explanation}

dan and dustin: A;SLDJF;ALSDJF;LSU;ALKJSFD I CAN'T KEEP UP WITH ALL THE WAYS TO NOT OFFEND PEOPLE! EVERYONE NEEDS TO JUST CALM DOWN AND NOT GET ALL UP IN ARMS AND TYPING IN ALL CAPS OVER NOTHING! HOW DARE YOU CALL ME A WHITE ENGLISHMAN!!! I CAN SAY WHATEVER I WANT!

[boost]

Well boost, being an asian (I think) in a society that panders to the needs of everyone's littlest sensitivity it's no surprise you're overly sympathetic.

I am not Asian. And I think you are way off the mark, but I don't blame you because progress creates a sort of illusion of time. Society, in general, has progressed from being extremely insensitive, to being less insensitive. Since the status quo is at all times a state of insensitivity, then when there is progress it appears that everyone is being overly sympathetic.

Whilst I completely agree with your point, where does one draw the line? In the example you used above, you are stating that the historic derogatory use of the word has lead to the current offence attached to the term. I am fully aware through books, films and education of the way black people have been treated and the terms that have become offensive on the grounds of that. I do not use words such as Negro or any variation of it.

The idea that there has to be a clearly defined line drawn on the issue is a logical fallacy.. language is fluid and ever changing. If you don't care to keep up with it, then fine-- but know that there are words for people who don't bother to put any effort towards recognizing and acting in accordance with people's sensitivities... asshole, douchebag, etc.

I am not however fully aware of who may have dominated and controlled various different parts of asia or the terminoilogy such people may have used. You could argue that perhaps I should learn more. But I disagree. I don't intend to learn the histories of every dam country in the world, I have neither the time nor the desire. Or perhaps should we learn the history of every country and nation while in school? There are a hell of a lot of tribes and nations out there and it would probably be a bit too much of an ask to cover all of them, so maybe just groups who make up a certain percentage of the country you are educated in? But then what if we have an increase in immigration from a particular country? What exactly should be knocked off the syllabus to ensure a random group are not offended?

I do think that it is very sad how little we learn about world history in school... and yes I will argue that you need to educate yourself more if you wish to not come across as an insensitive assclown. Do you need to know about every little conflict that has ever taken place? No.. but a good start would be learning about the events and histories of things relevant to your daily life. Does the conflict between the Hutus and the Tutsis have anything to do with your day to day life? Probably not, and so I wouldn't expect you to know about each parties sensitivities and whatnot. But if you are going to involve yourself in events/groups/whatever where there is diversity, you should probably have a decent grasp of what is offensive language to the parties represented.

If a particular group doesn't want to be called a certain term, they should make sure everyone is aware of this and why and what they would like to be called.

yes, because minorities exist as singular entities-- singular entities that send out memos describing their sensitivities in detail...

Seriously though, people make mistakes and say offensive stuff... it happens, just learn from the mistake. You didn't know, now you do; act on the newly acquired knowledge.

I do not know how to differentiate between a person from Vietnam, Malaysia or Thailand based on looks alone. I do not know how to differentiate between black people from Botswana or Zambia on looks alone. I do not know how to differentiate between white people from France and Germany on looks alone. It seems it is perfectly acceptable to call the second group black, it is perfectly acceptable to call the third group white. I have no idea what I would call the first group accept asian, which gives no real idea as to who the fuck has robbed the bank.

Yes, as our society currently exists it is necessary to be able to classify people by race.. funny though that it is hard to imagine a scenario which does not involve criminal profiling in which it is a necessity. But what's your point? The fact still remains that some categorical labels are offensive.

FWIW, I never use the term oriental in describing someone and certainly won't now I know it's potentailly offensive. I guess my point is I think people can be a bit too sensitive. If a term is universally accepted as offensive (ie the "negro" example you used) and is still used then you can't complain when someone is offended. But if a word that is still used for decriptive reasons with regard to objects and isn't commonly known as being offensive is used and no offence is intended what so ever, then it is a bit pathetic to be offended.

Why are you so concerned with judging peoples right to be offended? If you feel that a particular person is overly sensitive, then try to be around them less. If you find that in general people are overly sensitive, then it's probably you who is the problem.

I can only imagine the term "American" will be next. I can't think of any place of origin that has as many negative connotations with it. The term American is generally associated with being loud mouthed, brash, arrogant, self centered, rude and liable to offend. If I was from Alaska say, would I really want to be known as American? Associating me with those gun toting, racist rednecks from the south?

As long as Americans are generally arrogant pricks, then in general Americans will not take offense, since they see the negative attributes they are being tagged with as positives. Think about the negative feelings people have towards rich people... they have these feelings, yet they still want to be rich themselves. Now think of a poor person... no one is thinking, "that guy is dirty, smelly and pathetic-- but I sure wish I was poor.. If I were poor, I'd be different!"

I am almost certain this post is likely to have pissed someone off. That's not my intention. I just go annoyed by the "white Englishman" comment.

I have not been offended, but I find it interesting that you were.. was I wrong in thinking you are a white Englishman? If I was not wrong, then why are you annoyed? Do you think my point is invalid?

[!Luck]

Your offensive range is too wide, you should merge it with your insensative range. Much more EV that way.

Man I miss poker.

!luck

[boost]

Your offensive range is too wide, you should merge it with your insensative range. Much more EV that way.

Man I miss poker.

!luck

inorite?

[EasyPoker]

Your offensive range is too wide, you should merge it with your insensative range. Much more EV that way.

Man I miss poker.

!luck

Play on one of the other sites offering poker.

[rong]

Boost, I agree with e everything you just said. I only originally entered this conversation to make my porn search joke. When I responded to you the next day it was at the tail end of a hedonistic night of the type a rarely get involved in these days and I wad too fucked to do anything, desperate to sleep but to wired to close my eyes. Which left the interwebs as my only source of time wasting. I don't really agree with much of what my damaged brain sprouted off but am strangely proud of my ability to write in such a clear and coherent manner given my mental state at the time. I especially like my bit about Americans. Not sure why I had the desperate urge to have the right to categorize people, but do stand by my point that in the UK Asian typically refers ro people of say Pakistani origin and that perhaps there is a gap in the language for describing people of what Americans typically refer to ad Asian, bit who gives a Fuck.

You are right about ignorance often leading to a perceived racist remark, but I think it is also a combination of ignorance and arrogance that leads to an individual taking offence at an unintended ignorant comment.

I dunno, no real point to either my wasted rant yesterday or my post today. Why can't we just love each other and get along.

[rong]

And boost isn't Asian?

[Galapogos]

And boost isn't Asian?

Boost is a blonde haired, blue eyed Dutchman. You couldn't have been more off.

[Galapogos]

Ah crap, I just fell into the racist trap by referring to him as a Dutchman instead of Netherlander.

[Roid_Rage]

Fuckin' Canadians amirite.

[OngBonga]

Urban Dictionary: bollywog

Pfft, some Mick is taking the credit for our moment of genius. We had this discussion in 2007 as a result of the national outrage after Jade Goody (fat English nobody who everyone hated until she got cancer, at which point she became a brave national heroine etc) got into an argument with Shilpa Sheppy (beautiful Indian godess) and called her a Paki on live national TV.

[a500lbgorilla]

We should make a universal slur for all races, creeds, sects and sorts.

Like fleshface or grunt.

[OngBonga]

Shut up you homo-sapien banana eating mokey-features.

[a500lbgorilla]

I've got it! We'll call the whole lot of em OngBongas. That name would piss me off to no end.

[DoubleJ]

"People suck, and that's my contention. I can prove it on a scratch paper and pen. Give me a fucking Etch-a-sketch, I'll do it in three minutes. The proof, the fact, the factorum. I'll show my work, case closed. We're a virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are."

William Melvin "Bill" Hicks, 1997.

[OngBonga]

Oh come on Kevster. Hugely minority racist types? You're living in a bubble. Words are not racist, feelings are racist. I happen to like the Chinese as a race a damn lot more than Americans. My feelings towards the Chinese is they are superior to us. Am I still racist? Maybe towards the inferior white.
I'm not sure where in the UK you are, but I doubt very much that me and my two mates are the only people who call a Chinese takeaway a chinky. I think you should get out into town this evening, have a look at the beer boys causing trouble, and tell me where the real problem in this fucking country is.

I would like to make it clear that I believe this person is absolutely *not* representative of a typical UK citizen.

That is all.

That's a compliment. Thank you.

[eugmac]

Oh come on Kevster. Hugely minority racist types? You're living in a bubble. Words are not racist, feelings are racist. I happen to like the Chinese as a race a damn lot more than Americans. My feelings towards the Chinese is they are superior to us. Am I still racist? Maybe twoards the inferior white.
I'm not sure where in the UK you are, but I doubt very much that me and my two mates are the only people who call a Chinese takeaway a chinky. I think you should get out into town this evening, have a look at the beer boys causing trouble, and tell me where the real problem in this fucking country is.



That's a compliment. Thank you.

American is not a race. China is a much more racially homogenous country but even there they recognise 55 minority groups within the "Chinese" people.

[OngBonga]

American is not a race.

No, fair comment. I'll rephrase for those who wish to be particular about language... I like Chinese nationals more than I like American nationals, generally speaking. Americans I find to be arrogant and over-sensetive to offensive words, and not sensetive enough to offensive actions. Much like the British. It's all very well going to Afghanistan and Iraq to kill Muslims and steal their oil, so long as we don't call them names. Fucked up.

[eugmac]

I happen to like the Chinese as a race a damn lot more than Americans.

Careful with this too. One group having a "feeling" that the "others" may be better than them is just as dangerous a form of racism if not more IMO.

Isn't this the root cause of "they're coming to TAKE OUR JOBS"?

[OngBonga]

Careful with this too. One group having a "feeling" that the "others" may be better than them is just as dangerous a form of racism if not more IMO.

I'm glad someone notices when I'm actually racist. Saying I like them more than Americans is racist. Referring to my crispy shredded beef and egg fried rice as a chinky is most certainly not.

[OngBonga]

"Making up racist slurs is not funny" (-rep quote)

May I ask the person who said this... do you find South Park funny? I watched one last night, and Cartman was the dark overlord's pet, called Coon. Is casual racism acceptable when it's on TV in cartoon form?

[CBAT]

This thread turned into a shit storm.

[OngBonga]

This thread turned into a shit storm.

I blame whoever pulled me up on Chineseman. Ironically I was trying to not be offensive when I used that term. This thread has certainly been fun though. How is it not locked yet?

[BooG690]

Why isn't OngBonga banned, or at least tempbanned, yet? He's probably offending a shitton of lurkers in the commune that don't want to speak up and seem to ruin the 'joke' going on in the commune.

[OngBonga]

Why isn't OngBonga banned, or at least tempbanned, yet? He's probably offending a shitton of lurkers in the commune that don't want to speak up and seem to ruin the 'joke' going on in the commune.

Oh fuck off. You never said anything controversial?

[BooG690]

Oh fuck off. You never said anything controversial?

I never really said anything to purposely try and offend people.

[OngBonga]

I never really said anything to purposely try and offend people.

I'm not trying to offend people. I might be being a twat, but it's not my intention to offend people. If that happens, it's a undesireable side-effect, but I'm not going to walk on eggshells so not to offend sensetive types.

Words are just fucking words. I am most certainly not racist, even if you think by my language that I am. Whatever, if you think that someone saying chinky or whatever shows they are racist, it just shows that you don't understand what racism is. That's your fucking problem, not mine.

rac·ism
–noun
1.
a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2.
a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3.
hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

Now fuck off.

[a500lbgorilla]

Why isn't OngBonga banned, or at least tempbanned, yet? He's probably offending a shitton of lurkers in the commune that don't want to speak up and seem to ruin the 'joke' going on in the commune.

Because meh. If people want to discuss the whats and hows of the meaning behind a word being racist, I welcome the discussion.

If anyone is genuinely offended and doesn't want to say so publicly, my inbox is open.

[Galapogos]

Edit: stupid joke just seems out of context now, didn't realize there was a second page

[eugmac]

Edit: stupid joke just seems out of context now, didn't realize there was a third page

FYP

[Galapogos]

I'm a noob with my forum control settings.

FYFYP

[mrhappy333]

Edit: stupid joke just seems out of context now, didn't realize there was a second page

woops, just seen that too. must get thread back on track...


so are you Chinese or Japenese?

[Galapogos]

woops, just seen that too. must get thread back on track...


so are you Chinese or Japenese?

I am a Canadaman.

[a500lbgorilla]

I am a Canadaman.

They prefer to be called Occidentals.

[JR9477]

rename thread imo, so we don't have wanderers coming in here and being all wtf.

[a500lbgorilla]

rename thread imo, so we don't have wanderers coming in here and being all wtf.

I think it's pretty clear that one key side effect of banning poker is the decent into heated race relation discussions.

[baudib]

Oriental is just bizarre; no one refers to Europeans or North Americans as "Occidental."

[a500lbgorilla]

Oriental is just bizarre; no one refers to Europeans or North Americans as "Occidental."

People should start. I like this.

[rong]

Fuck me! What did I start?!

Ong, you're making me cringe. At least my rant was drug fueled and as far as I am aware not actually racist. The whole chinky thing is just wrong. You should stop using it. If you were using it and unaware it was offensive, fine, but I'm amazed if that's true. And now you know it us offensive, you should stop.

[rong]

Ooh cool, I have a bad rep.

[OngBonga]

I'm drug fuelled too, so it's alright. Dan, you're missing the point, just like everyone else.

Context. Racism is intolerance, it comes from the fucking HEART, not the mouth/fingers. It's how you feel.

If chinky, when used to refer to Chinese food, is offensive to someone, then they have sensetivity issues. Not my problem. I'm not trying to offend people, but neither am I looking to hug people who don't like certain words.

Let's move away from the Chinese then. Try and find a word to describe someone from England that will offend me. I'm from Birmingham, that might help find regional slurs. Good luck.

[baudib]

Context. Racism is intolerance, it comes from the fucking HEART, not the mouth/fingers. It's how you feel.

If chinky, when used to refer to Chinese food, is offensive to someone, then they have sensetivity issues. Not my problem. I'm not trying to offend people, but neither am I looking to hug people who don't like certain words.

Let's move away from the Chinese then. Try and find a word to describe someone from England that will offend me. I'm from Birmingham, that might help find regional slurs. Good luck.

yeah, but, no.

This is like the Internet equivalent of saying, "I don't care if a person is white, black, green..." or "Some of my best friends are black."

[Ash256]

Context. Racism is intolerance, it comes from the fucking HEART, not the mouth/fingers. It's how you feel.

If chinky, when used to refer to Chinese food, is offensive to someone, then they have sensetivity issues. Not my problem. I'm not trying to offend people, but neither am I looking to hug people who don't like certain words.

Let's move away from the Chinese then. Try and find a word to describe someone from England that will offend me. I'm from Birmingham, that might help find regional slurs. Good luck.

You're tripping over your own bollocks on a couple of points here:

1) Offensiveness is decided by the culture, not you.

2) You've just said that if someone is offended by the word chinky then they have sensitivity issues. Yet, earlier, you said you wouldn't utter it within earshot of a chinese person for fear of, er, offending them. So you do know that it's an offensive word. Just as Stewart Lee states in his political correctness joke YouTube - Stewart Lee - 9 - Political Correctness - 41st Best Stand-Up ever, political correctness is an often clumsy negotiation towards a more formally inclusive language. Chinky is not formally inclusive for obvious reasons, which is why it's not uttered by many people.

Now don't get me wrong here, I'm not accusing you of racism in the least, however I am saying you haven't clearly thought through the use of your language within the context of wider society.

[OngBonga]

You're tripping over your own bollocks on a couple of points here:

1) Offensiveness is decided by the culture, not you.

2) You've just said that if someone is offended by the word chinky then they have sensitivity issues. Yet, earlier, you said you wouldn't utter it within earshot of a chinese person for fear of, er, offending them. So you do know that it's an offensive word. Just as Stewart Lee states in his political correctness joke YouTube - Stewart Lee - 9 - Political Correctness - 41st Best Stand-Up ever, political correctness is an often clumsy negotiation towards a more formally inclusive language. Chinky is not formally inclusive for obvious reasons, which is why it's not uttered by many people.

Now don't get me wrong here, I'm not accusing you of racism in the least, however I am saying you haven't clearly thought through the use of your language within the context of wider society.

Bloody hell, a concise argument. Top man.

Your point 1 is not really worth arguing, different societies determine different words to be offensive.

Point 2 is worth debating though. You are indeed correct, I realise the word chinky can be offensive. But like I've said twice now, the context is of crucial importance. I mean, how many times have other people said the word now in debate about the word? You said the word in your last post! It's ok though, because we're discussing racism and a particular word. I realise in this context it's not offensive in the slightest.

And I use the word chinky to describe Chinese food, but never Chinese people. Again, there's a context difference.

Now, while I don't really care if I offend people who are too sensetive, that doesn't mean I get any enjoyment out of offending people. I try to be careful about the language I use in the company of those who might be offended, that's the same as not swearing in front of children, but I realise I let myself down online. But then how many people use the word "retard" online? I do, for sure. How many retarded people might be reading what you say? That's gonna hurt their feelings. Should we avoid using the term "retard"? Fuck that, it's a great word.

And I just said "fuck". There might be some kids reading. Fuck.

To anyone who might have been offended by my comments, all I say is there is no hatred in me whatsoever. That's what racism is, racism is hatred. Some people here who are getting on my back seem to be filled with hatred, BooG wants me banned for fuck's sake. That isn't because I said something offensive, it's because he doesn't like me. Who's the one with the problem? I don't see I have any problems to deal with. There's no hatred in me.

[Ash256]

And I use the word chinky to describe Chinese food, but never Chinese people. Again, there's a context difference.

The context is of crucial difference here, but your problem is that as chinky is derived from the offensive slur chink and everyone knows this, everyone who hears you say it will bundle you in a group with the Paki Shop (or, er, little black man shop) types.

You do raise a really valid point about how we still call each other retards and gays. I wouldn't be surprised to see that aspect slowly change in our lifetimes.

[Micro2Macro]

alright I think it's safe to say this thread is officially derailed

[kiwiMark]

how do you fuckers know so quick what's up with your rep? is there somewhere I can check out if anybody's given me rep for shit?

[OngBonga]

how do you fuckers know so quick what's up with your rep? is there somewhere I can check out if anybody's given me rep for shit?

Click profile, top of page. Bam.

[kiwiMark]

! tyty

[rong]

"you're nothing but another dirt ongbonga" what the Fuck does that mean? That was the comment left along with a positive rep thing.

Please don't tar me with the same brush as him.

[a500lbgorilla]

"you're nothing but another dirt ongbonga" what the Fuck does that mean? That was the comment left along with a positive rep thing.

Please don't tar me with the same brush as him.

I call 'em like I see 'em. You're all dirt OngBongas to me.

We should make a universal slur for all races, creeds, sects and sorts.

I've got it! We'll call the whole lot of em OngBongas. That name would piss me off to no end.

[rong]

I call 'em like I see 'em. You're all dirt OngBongas to me.

I am none the wiser

[kiwiMark]

what do blue (grey?) squares mean in the wee rep profile thing? is that an "I disapprove" rep? I would've thought that'd be red, but there are only two options when giving rep right?

[a500lbgorilla]

what do blue (grey?) squares mean in the wee rep profile thing? is that an "I disapprove" rep? I would've thought that'd be red, but there are only two options when giving rep right?

I dunno. I have a few greens and a bunch of greys. Adds up 12 reps.

[boost]

Why do people think I'm Asian?

[Galapogos]

Why do people think I'm Asian?

Small peen?

[celtic123]

I

If chinky, when used to refer to Chinese food,

Yip ,Its common in Uk .

Same with Indian food , on friday / saturday nights its either a Chinky or an Indian ,absolutely no offense intended , nor taken in UK.

Conversation between me and my Daughter on the phone, Thursday ,incomplete and abridged ....

"Hi Dad , Can you get me bottle of Vodka ? .
Im going to a fancy dress tonight , dressed as a Turtle"

"No , sorry , I cant , Im in Manchester for the week end "

"Oh , K "

"Tell you what , why dont you try the little black-man shop , I
don't think there too bothered about checking your age
and the Vodka is only £5.99 a bottle "

"yea , I might try that , Have a nice weekend , bye".


Little black man shop refers to one shop. Nice friendly chap . No racism .

We also refer to the Paki shop. Run by Pakistanis.

Just our lingo

[kevster]

Little black man shop refers to one shop. Nice friendly chap . No racism .

We also refer to the Paki shop. Run by Pakistanis.

Just our lingo

I'm too tired for this shit but Ash and others have largely nailed in it ITT.

Also, how are people not getting Rilla's comedy? It rules.

[Ash256]

P.S. just to clarify

I'm not some politically correct god, I too am guilty of sometimes using offensive language or laughing at offensive jokes. It's just that when I'm pulled up on it, I realise my error and try to cut that sort of shit out of my life. I don't immediately jump on my high horse, whip my dick out and ride around the countryside with my schlong flopping around while telling the world they're just too sensitive for me.

[eugmac]

I realized this as I posted, but meh. The forum default settings are the universal benchmarks in this case. Otherwise we can never agree to how many pages any given thread has, and this would be absolute chaos. :O

[BooG690]

I realized this as I posted, but meh. The forum default settings are the universal benchmarks in this case. Otherwise we can never agree to how many pages any given thread has, and this would be absolute chaos. :O

I disagree. The maximum number of posts is the universal benchmark.

[rong]

As this seems to be the new randomness thread ......... u just bought 10 cigarettes for the first time in years. £3.48! That's horrific. How the Fuck do the unemployed afford to smoke?

[OngBonga]

As this seems to be the new randomness thread ......... u just bought 10 cigarettes for the first time in years. £3.48! That's horrific. How the Fuck do the unemployed afford to smoke?

Roll ups.

[boost]

As this seems to be the new randomness thread ......... u just bought 10 cigarettes for the first time in years. £3.48! That's horrific. How the Fuck do the unemployed afford to smoke?

$9 in Chicago..

Glad I stopped smoking a long time ago..

[eugmac]

$9 in Chicago..

Glad I stopped smoking a long time ago..

Is that for 10 or 20 cigs?

[Roid_Rage]

Awww I missed out on more racism chat.

It's between $5.40 for a pack of Pall Malls (I think 20?) and $7.41 for Marlboro's.

Fucking people come in all the time all scrubbed out and dirty and shit and count out change to buy them. They also buy a fuck ton of lotto/lottery tickets.

[kiwiMark]

who the fuck smokes tailies anyway, rollies taste so much betttter

[rong]

who the fuck smokes tailies anyway, rollies taste so much betttter

Agreed. But rollies are a commitment to smoking, you need riz and filters. A pack of ten is just dipping your toe as opposed to diving in.

[Roid_Rage]

Question for the UK guys:

Bollocks = ? Balls? Cahones?

Just wondering because that seems like thats the context in which its used.

Got good and bad rep for this thread, w00t!

[rong]

Bollocks means balls or bullshit or bravery or good.

"My Bollocks hurt" means "my testicles are a little tender"
"That's Bollocks mate" means "i don't believe that's true sir"
"The boys got Bollocks" means "he's a brave lad"
"That's the dogs Bollocks" means "thats rather good old chum"

[OngBonga]

Bollocks. It's primary meaning is "testicles", but as Dan points out, it has many meanings. It can also be used instead of "ouch" or "oh dear", and it can mean both good and bad, though if it's good, it must have the word "the" before it, sometimes with "dog's", but if it means something bad, it must not have the word "the" before it.

Even better, it gets past the filter on PokerStars, along with piss and wanker. But the town of Scunthorpe doesn't.

[Trons]

derailed thread is derailed...on a side note, and somewhat on topic, it doesn't appear the forums will see a decrease in traffic, if this thread is any indication.

[flomo]

Any good slurs for Frenchmen ?