Randomness thread, part two.

[CoccoBill]

About to finish my first playthrough. Yeah there's bugs, no it's nowhere close to perfect, but one of the best games I've ever played.

[oskar]

How come when someone famous is sent to the ICU they never tell you what the condition is "out of respect for the family", and it always ends up being one of the three most common things people get sent to the ICU for and never something you'd actually want to keep secret out of "respect for the family" like spontaneously inverted penis or R2D2 action figure stuck in butt.

[oskar]

I'm playing the Cyberpunk expansion right now. Probably Alan Wake 2 after that. I've put more hours in Cyberpunk than maybe any other single player game ever. They improved the mechanics a lot, but still suffers from uneven fights and a depressingly stupid AI. But I just love the world. Sometimes I just walk from mission to mission because it's so pretty.

I'd like to check out Baldur's Gate but I've been duped by fantasy games many times before, and I have to steam library to prove it.

[OngBonga]

It's not all that respectful to keep secret the medical condition of unwell celebrities. Michael Schumacher is an excellent example. Instead of knowing how bad he is, we can all speculate instead. He might wipe his own arse, but we assume not because of "respecting his privacy" and all that.

[MadMojoMonkey]

About to finish my first playthrough. Yeah there's bugs, no it's nowhere close to perfect, but one of the best games I've ever played.

I've only had 1 CTD in like 80+ hours of playing, which is amazing. Mostly the bugs I find are mismatched dialogues indicating someone was "there" when they weren't. Or I skipped some parts of the companion's quest, but then get to the next part, and they're all, "since we did [a thing we never did]..." and just keep going.

IDK how far to the end I am. I'm barely scratching the surface of Act 3, and I hear that's ~ halfway through the game.
I'm taking my time, for sure, but that's a lot of game, with tons of dialogues and cutscenes.

I'm mentally tallying up millions of things to try differently next time around. NPC's I didn't save, losing Wyll mostly because I didn't know what that quest marker was telling me, yada yada.

Mostly, I roll with Lae'zel, Karlach, and Gale. I'm a cleric.
Karlach is set up to throw things and pretty much mops the floor.

[CoccoBill]

About halfway sounds right. I'm a dark urge bard/warlock with Shadowheart, Lae'zel and Astarion, all of their questlines are very good. Wouldn't recommend dark urge for anyone's first playthrough but definitely give it a go later.

Not a single CTD for me, 120hrs in. The bugs I've seen are exactly what you mentioned, and like vital quest items not appearing when they should. Given the complexity of options though, it's amazing it works as well as it does.

[MadMojoMonkey]

Yeah. I think that's the intended party comp for Dark Urge. Wyll, Gale, and Karlach are too friendly for those shenanigans.


Oh... 1 bug that got me was the Returning Pike sometimes disappearing in the boat fight with the Duergar. I had to save scum a couple times to keep it through that fight.


The whole gaslighting "protector" come ever-manipulative Emperor is a frustrating main plot line for a basically good character that only wants to get the damn tadpole out of their own head.

[oskar]

It's not all that respectful to keep secret the medical condition of unwell celebrities. Michael Schumacher is an excellent example. Instead of knowing how bad he is, we can all speculate instead. He might wipe his own arse, but we assume not because of "respecting his privacy" and all that.

Oh damn, the accident was 2013. When you're not camera ready 10 years later, that's not a good sign.

[oskar]

Playing more Cyberpunk, I recall a quote from the late, great Totalbiscuit who, battling late stage cancer once praised some pay-to-win mobile game he was playing, saying: "finally someone made a game where middle aged dudes with disposable income can just pay their way to victory..."
I see people complaining about game performance in Cyberpunk left and right, and I'm sitting here with a $1000 graphics card and it's just absolutely glorious. I'm already sad to hear that CDProjectRED is moving to Unreal for their next game, most likely because REDEngine isn't scaling as well as they hoped. But for now I'm absolutely in love with Dog Town. Digital aritsts of today don't get the credit they deserve.

[oskar]

Here's a fun thing about the youtube algorithm: I always followed outsider accounts. Autists, quadriplegics, terminally ill... but usually I was watching some autist doing a washing machine review and the suggestions would be all detergent and washing machine reviews, but now they got it down to a science where you watch one 14yo girl with stage 4 cancer talking about how she's going to spend her last days, and the YT algorithm is like: here's 5000 more of those! Wow, thank you...
AI is going places.

[Poopadoop]

I've been duped by fantasy games many times before, and I have to steam library to prove it.

Replace "fantasy" with "fantasy or any game that looks good but then turns out to suck," and that describes about half of my Steam library.

[Poopadoop]

usually I was watching some autist doing a washing machine review

Living the life.

[oskar]

Living the life.

I enjoy it.

[MadMojoMonkey]

$1000 on the graphics card alone?
Whoa

Do you do a lot of video rendering?
Or are you just that into your gaming?

[oskar]

Here's a fun thing about the youtube algorithm: I always followed outsider accounts. Autists, quadriplegics, terminally ill... but usually I was watching some autist doing a washing machine review and the suggestions would be all detergent and washing machine reviews, but now they got it down to a science where you watch one 14yo girl with stage 4 cancer talking about how she's going to spend her last days, and the YT algorithm is like: here's 5000 more of those! Wow, thank you...
AI is going places.

I should probably clarify that I'm not seeking those out, I was looking up a Totalbiscuit interview and the algorithm thought all I wanted to see today was last videos on YT accounts from people documenting their battle with cancer. Soulcrushing stuff.

[oskar]

$1000 on the graphics card alone?
Whoa

Do you do a lot of video rendering?
Or are you just that into your gaming?

I had a 4690k/gtx970 until this year and I already couldn't play Cyberpunk at all and TLOU was coming out for PC so I just got a 4070ti at launch and a 13600k.
Even for gaming it's questionable. There are so few games that can actually use that card without just giving you ludicrous fps. The top of the 40 series is really only good value for properly raytraced games and there are only a couple out right now.

[OngBonga]

Yeah I'm not much into cancer porn, I prefer tsunami porn for my morbid curiosity. Although, having said that, I can't watch the Indian Ocean tsunami. They didn't know that was coming, you see many, many more people, mothers with children, getting swept up. In Japan they knew it was coming, just not how bad it was going to be, so the slow and stupid got caught but the majority took to high enough ground fast enough.

[Poopadoop]

I enjoy it.

If the rest of it is as interesting as the first ten seconds, I stand by my comment.

[oskar]

Yeah I'm not much into cancer porn, I prefer tsunami porn for my morbid curiosity. Although, having said that, I can't watch the Indian Ocean tsunami. They didn't know that was coming, you see many, many more people, mothers with children, getting swept up. In Japan they knew it was coming, just not how bad it was going to be, so the slow and stupid got caught but the majority took to high enough ground fast enough.

From the footage I've seen I can never figure out how so many people could die from that. You'd expect a Roland Emmerich tidal wave, and in reality it's just water slowly rising. Maybe a lot less people can swim than I would expect... idk.

edit: nvm, I've just never seen the really bad ones. (at 30s)

[oskar]

If the rest of it is as interesting as the first ten seconds, I stand by my comment.

Didn't even get to the money shot. smh

[OngBonga]

The Japan death toll, as large as it was, it was mercifully low for an event of that scale. It was a bigger tsunami than the Indian Ocean one, but fraction of the death toll. Not only does Japan have excellent warning systems in place, they all felt the earthquake and are well educated, they know even a small quake means go to higher ground until you know it's safe to return. It's a stark contrast to the Indian Ocean one, where they're marvelling at the tide rushing out without a care in the world, or just blissfully going about their business when suddenly the city floods. And for many the quake was thousands of miles away, the vast majority didn't feel it.

A lot of people died in Japan in buildings they assumed were safe, and they're the kind of buildings a sensible person would retreat to if they didn't have time to flee to higher ground. The thing with tsunamis is that they're relentless, it's enough force to take buildings off their foundations, and the water just keeps on rising, in some cases consuming large buildings that do have strong enough foundations to not just break apart. Buildings that don't flood quickly enough become dangerously buoyant, and those that do flood quickly enough leave little time to escape to upper floors. And people dither, they obviously want to round up family and pets, some help complete strangers, others are daft enough to collect possessions, and many more just underestimate the danger they are in and don't act fast enough. But for the most part, the Japanese public reacted superbly, and that definitely reduced the death toll by a massive amount.

[givememyleg]

2023 was FTR's 20th birthday. It will be able to drink next year.

[OngBonga]

lol 21 drinking age

FREEEEDOM

[oskar]

So are you guys rooting for Hamas, or are you team IDF?

[oskar]

A lot of people died in Japan in buildings they assumed were safe, and they're the kind of buildings a sensible person would retreat to if they didn't have time to flee to higher ground. The thing with tsunamis is that they're relentless, it's enough force to take buildings off their foundations, and the water just keeps on rising, in some cases consuming large buildings that do have strong enough foundations to not just break apart. Buildings that don't flood quickly enough become dangerously buoyant, and those that do flood quickly enough leave little time to escape to upper floors. And people dither, they obviously want to round up family and pets, some help complete strangers, others are daft enough to collect possessions, and many more just underestimate the danger they are in and don't act fast enough. But for the most part, the Japanese public reacted superbly, and that definitely reduced the death toll by a massive amount.

Buoyant houses, huh? That's never good.
It's frightening how unaware some people are of imminent danger. Even in that video I posted. Must sound like the end of days behind them. People yelling for them to hurry up, but they're just strolling.
In the 2019 Aeroflot 1492 crash passengers grabbed their luggage before evacuating a burning plane, very likely adding to the death toll. The one thing you're told not to do before every single flight. No situational awareness.

[MadMojoMonkey]

So are you guys rooting for Hamas, or are you team IDF?

Responding to terrorism with terrorism makes it very hard to pick a side.

I'm on the side of cooler heads prevailing, I guess.

[OngBonga]

Many of the people in Japan "strolling" towards safety were likely exhausted. They probably just ran half a mile flat out, and if you're unfit, that's brutal. Sensible thing to do is to jog at a pace you can maintain for some distance, but when you're in a state of panic and there's a serious danger right behind you, well I'd probably run flat out until I couldn't breathe, at which point I'd walk and pant like a fucking dog while hoping for the best.

As for grabbing luggage on a burning plane, this sadly doesn't surprise me. And you're not just putting yourself at risk. By not evacuating as fast and efficiently as possible, you're likely slowing down other people blocking the aisle or whatever. People in their panic just think about money and passport so they can get a hotel and return home without a fuss, but that isn't worth potentially burning to fucking death. Just let the embassy help you out.

[OngBonga]

This Israel conflict, it's not so simple to argue this is terrorism vs terrorism.

I've been highly critical of Israel over the years, they are absolute wankers because their policy for decades has been taking land, bulldozing villages, building settlements, all while enforcing a blockade on the people of Gaza which amounts to a deliberate policy of " no prosperity". This is a crime against humanity. Is it terrorism? Depends if you consider terrorism to be an act of ideology, and if you believe Israel's actions are ideologically motivated.

What Hamas did, I don't think there's any controversy as to whether that was terrorism. And it has to be said, any sympathy I had for their cause has disappeared. When the rockets started firing towards Israel, the people took to the streets and celebrated. When beaten, naked female hostages were being paraded in Gaza, they were spat at by the crowd. And let's not forget that Hamas were democratically put into power, they are not a dictatorship. When people vote for terrorists, it's hard to sympathise with them when those terrorists then commit acts of terrorism, resulting in a state of war.

With that said, Israel are failing to show restraint with their demands for Gaza City to evacuate. It does feel like Israel are punishing Gazans. But Israel are reasonable in their goal of eliminating Hamas. I hope they succeed with as little bloodshed as possible. I expect it to get very bloody though.

[OngBonga]

It feels like we're drifting towards WWIII. More so than in the past. Previously, when USA attacked Iraq and when other major flashpoints made it seem like WWIII was coming, there was no serious threat to USA's dominance and so it never really felt like it was inevitable. Now we have Russia, China and Iran (by proxy) all becoming more aggressive.

Hamas must have assurances that someone is coming to their defence one way or another. They must know that their actions would result in a massive response from Israel. My concern is that Hamas is luring Israel into a street battle in Gaza so they can be attacked from the North. This feels like Iran are making moves. And any attempt to seize Israeli territory is going to most certainly attract NATO intervention. And that in turn will really piss Ukraine off, because the message it will send is that Israel is more important to NATO than Ukraine. Which is true.

[oskar]

Responding to terrorism with terrorism makes it very hard to pick a side.

I'm on the side of cooler heads prevailing, I guess.

Wow, antisemitic.

It feels like we're drifting towards WWIII. More so than in the past. Previously, when USA attacked Iraq and when other major flashpoints made it seem like WWIII was coming, there was no serious threat to USA's dominance and so it never really felt like it was inevitable. Now we have Russia, China and Iran (by proxy) all becoming more aggressive.

Hamas must have assurances that someone is coming to their defence one way or another. They must know that their actions would result in a massive response from Israel. My concern is that Hamas is luring Israel into a street battle in Gaza so they can be attacked from the North. This feels like Iran are making moves. And any attempt to seize Israeli territory is going to most certainly attract NATO intervention. And that in turn will really piss Ukraine off, because the message it will send is that Israel is more important to NATO than Ukraine. Which is true.

I think if Arab countries had the resources to drop a nuke on Israel, they would have already done it. I think the power dynamic is so lopsided that, unfortunately what's most likely to happen is a ground invasion and annexation of Gaza and best case: complete displacement of Palestinians in Gaza and worst case: genocide. I guess genocide is not defined by numbers, but by killing a group based on religion or ethnicity, so definitionally, we're already at genocide at this point. Not even hidden. The former Israeli PM had a freakout at the question how he justified targeting an entire population in response to Hamas, claiming everyone in Gaza is a Nazi. Their defense minister saying: there are no innocents in Gaza. They themselves are calling it what it is, but nobody is listening. Meanwhile the Biden press secretary calls asking for a ceasefire "disgraceful" Pudding brained leftists all over the world are being useful idiots for Israel right now.

https://x.com/SkyNews/status/1712507691849928924?s=20

[oskar]

I don't think without the element of surprise that Hamas can gain any ground in Israel, or hold their ground in Gaza. They are a group of illiterate jihadist morons who played right into the hands of Israel.
If it turns out they can, I would agree that that could turn very bad.

[MadMojoMonkey]

Wow, antisemitic.

So your joke is that if I'm against terrorism, that I'm antisemitic..?

Maybe workshop that a bit.

[oskar]

I think it is disgraceful and repugnant for you to call on Israel to stop doing terrorism. Everyone knows all jews want to do all day is terrorism.

[oskar]

I think it's at least a little bit funny that especially leftists are acting like calling out Israel is antisemitic, as if all jews stood behind Israel, or specifically what Israel is doing in Gaza right now.

[MadMojoMonkey]

I think it is disgraceful and repugnant for you to call on Israel to stop doing terrorism. Everyone knows all jews want to do all day is terrorism.

There it is.

I mean... I was originally expecting the workshop to push it the other direction, but I think the point is better made now, either way.
Bonus point for not capitalizing Jews. Add a little gaslighting, for good measure.

[Poopadoop]

This is a tough one. OTOH, it's clear what Hamas did was seriously atrocious. But, I don't see how that gives Israel the right to behave the way they are now, basically walking the line between being super heavy-handed and genocide.

I've personally begun to think that Israel has used up all their Hologuilt passes and might need a wake up call before they ask themselves "are we the baddies." A part of me thinks the Hamas stuff is the chickens coming home to roost. What I don't get is why the West seems to be so 100% behind Israel no matter what they do.

More pragmatically, I don't see what their endgame is. It doesn't seem to have anything to do with peace, and their actions now are just guaranteeing another generation of Arabs grows up hating them. FML Israel get a grip.

[Poopadoop]

And let's not forget that Hamas were democratically put into power,

Because people always know what they're voting for - don't make me link to the Brexit thread...

[oskar]

There it is.

I mean... I was originally expecting the workshop to push it the other direction, but I think the point is better made now, either way.
Bonus point for not capitalizing Jews. Add a little gaslighting, for good measure.

Also: they wear much worse hats. Quite possibly the worst hats, now that I think of it.

[oskar]

Ok looks like Israel is going mask-off much faster and much more open than I would have expected. Will be fun to watch how long it takes for people to realize they were backing a genocide.

[MadMojoMonkey]

What I don't get is why the West seems to be so 100% behind Israel no matter what they do.

It's post-WWII stuff, right?

"The West" was like, we cowboyed up and beat the evil Nazis and saved Europe, and we don't even live here anymore. Also, we conquered Japan and then didn't even keep it. Just gave it right back to them like, "lol. Didn't want your dumb island, anyway." Now you all go back to your homes and leave the war stuff to us.

Then "the Jews" were like, uhh... we kinda don't want to go back to the place where all the people who live there are the ones who ratted us out to literal Nazis.

So "the West" asked "the Jews" where they wanted to go, and they said, of course, Israel, their ancestral homeland. And the West was like, Cool. Sounds easy. We'll just go drop you off there and it'll be fine. Then it wasn't fine and "the West" was all... oof... after what just happened to them, we can't just leave them there as sitting ducks, right?

[80 years of yada yada]

"The West" created this conflict when they went in and pushed out the people living in Israel and displaced them into the surrounding regions to make room for the new Jewish state that they just created. IDK what a good solution would have been, but the one they chose has literally caused 80 years of war so far.

Feel free to correct anything in here. I was being silly to keep it short, but I'm really not too informed about this aside from the untrue notion that this conflict is as old as time.


I honestly have no idea why the vast majority of Christian America is so pro-Israel. Maybe just veiled anti-arabism?

[Poopadoop]

I mean I get how it started out that way (cf. the reference to Hologuilt I made earlier). What I don't get is why it's become such an unbending dogma that Israel is always in the right.

[OngBonga]

Because people always know what they're voting for.

This would be fair enough if then when those terrorist started firing rockets at Israel, the people went "woah this isn't what we voted for". What they did was take to the streets like they had just won the World Cup, before scurrying back into hiding when the retaliation began.

And they knew exactly what they were voting for. It's not like Hamas have suddenly become Islamic extremists.

If you're going to use the phrase "chickens coming home to roost" for Israel, which I do believe is a reasonable phrase to use in this context, you must surely admit the same applies to people who democratically elect terrorists.

[OngBonga]

I honestly have no idea why the vast majority of Christian America is so pro-Israel. Maybe just veiled anti-arabism?

Christians are basically modern Jews. The Jewish holy book, the Torah, is the Old Testament. Christians literally worship a Jew.

[Poopadoop]

This would be fair enough if then when those terrorist started firing rockets at Israel, the people went "woah this isn't what we voted for". What they did was take to the streets like they had just won the World Cup, before scurrying back into hiding when the retaliation began.

And they knew exactly what they were voting for. It's not like Hamas have suddenly become Islamic extremists.

If you're going to use the phrase "chickens coming home to roost" for Israel, which I do believe is a reasonable phrase to use in this context, you must surely admit the same applies to people who democratically elect terrorists.

Of course they knew Hamas was going to go on a jew-killing spree and get them all bombed into oblivion. What was I thinking?

You might turn the question around and ask what was it about the conditions they were forced to live under that led them to elect a gov't of terrorists, rather than phrase it in a way that implies it was simply something inherent to their native mentality.

[MadMojoMonkey]

You might turn the question around and ask what was it about the conditions they were forced to live under that led them to elect a gov't of terrorists, rather than phrase it in a way that implies it was simply something inherent to their native mentality.

I say we send in the Irish and let them see what they can do. They've at least shown they're capable of ending internal violent conflict amid the onslaught of bad behavior on both sides. What could go wrong?

[oskar]

Who better to judge an ear biting contest than Mike Tyson? Good thinking.

[oskar]

Zizek at his most coherent. A bit of a nailbiter when he immediately starts ranting about bees, but gets back on track swiftly. It is shameful how much of a taboo it is to discuss the root causes of this conflict. I see journalists I follow, who reflexively condemn any call for ceasefire, any support for Palestinians as radicalism or even more idiotically: jihadism.

[Poopadoop]

Another anti-semite arguing against Israel's right to commit mass war crimes.

[oskar]

Say what you want about Piers Morgan, but the man has an absolutely unparalleled commitment to embarrass himself for the honorable cause of making his interviewees look good.

[OngBonga]

Of course they knew Hamas was going to go on a jew-killing spree and get them all bombed into oblivion. What was I thinking?

No they didn't know this, but they certainly would have expected the relentless stream of rockets that have been firing from Gaza since they came into power.


So yes, they would have expected to get bombed to shit, if not into oblivion. I really don't know if ordinary Gazans are shocked by what Hamas did, probably assigning blame is the least of their worries right now but I don't see them protesting Hamas' rule. Let me tell you if Tory extremists went on a killing spree in Scotland, they wouldn't remain in power for very long. That's because a civilised population won't accept this kind of warfare. Ergo, we're not talking here about a civilised population. We're talking about a population that has been indoctrinated by religion and extremists into hating their neighbour so much that they fucking celebrate when war happens.

You might turn the question around and ask what was it about the conditions they were forced to live under that led them to elect a gov't of terrorists, rather than phrase it in a way that implies it was simply something inherent to their native mentality.

It doesn't matter why they voted in these extremists. I'm not talking here about whether Gaza deserves what's happening, I'm pointing out that you used the phrase "chickens coming home to roost" to describe a terrorist attack on innocent civilians, while getting annoyed at the idea that phrase also applies to people who vote for terrorists.

Nobody deserves what's happening, not on either side. But nobody should be surprised either. They're both fucking horrible to each other. Israel refuses to allow Palestine to prosper, Palestine refuses to allow Israel to exist in a state of peace. Neither are willing to concede ground because both are religiously motivated. So a constant state of conflict is inevitable.

[oskar]

Ok, but what if the Tories had just come back from a beheading spree that killed over a thousand people, parading hostages around. Would you publicly go: Guys, I know we all voted for you in *checks notes* fall of 2006, but in light of recent events, I think it's time we hold a re-election! Or would you rather keep your head for now?

[OngBonga]

I guess my level of shock might also amount to a high degree of fear, so you have a valid point.

The difference of course is that it would surprise everyone, even poop, if Tory members took up arms and engaged in terrorism against Scottish civilians. Who is actually surprised Hamas did this? The only thing that's been stopping them killing Jews every opportunity they get is fear of consequences. So the only surprise is that they no longer fear the consequences. The fact they did this isn't the surprise. We know what humans are capable of, and we know how much Hamas hates Israel and Jewish people in general.

[Poopadoop]

I guess my level of shock might also amount to a high degree of fear, so you have a valid point.

The difference of course is that it would surprise everyone, even poop, if Tory members took up arms and engaged in terrorism against Scottish civilians. Who is actually surprised Hamas did this? The only thing that's been stopping them killing Jews every opportunity they get is fear of consequences. So the only surprise is that they no longer fear the consequences. The fact they did this isn't the surprise. We know what humans are capable of, and we know how much Hamas hates Israel and Jewish people in general.

Yeah but a lot more Palestinians have been killed by Israelis in the last dozen (and probably more) years than the other way around. That includes in the last two weeks.

So let me pose the question a different way: If an English state were going into Scotland and killing people on a regular basis, making them all live in poverty, and doing it for years and years, and then justifying it with some blah blah about self-preservation despite the balance of power being wildly in England's favour, would you be surprised if the Scots eventually got sick of it and elected a gov't that was going to fight back? Or would you think the Scots should just sit there and take it, and if they didn't that meant they were all terrorists who needed ethnic cleansing, starving them of food and water?

It's funny that guerillas and terrorists always spring up on the weaker side of a conflict, and invariably arise out of a response to ill-treatment, yet people still hold the illusion that they're the aggressors, rather than that they're responding to aggression infliced on them. Like if the French resistance in WWII went and bombed a German munitions dump there'd be people on time-twitter arguing that the the resistance fighters were at fault. Similar to then, the Israelis are guilty of occupying foreign lands and mistreating the population, then playing the victim when the population fights back.

[MadMojoMonkey]

So let me pose the question a different way: If an English state were going into Scotland and killing people on a regular basis, making them all live in poverty, and doing it for years and years, and then justifying it with some blah blah about self-preservation despite the balance of power being wildly in England's favour, would you be surprised if the Scots eventually got sick of it and elected a gov't that was going to fight back? Or would you think the Scots should just sit there and take it, and if they didn't that meant they were all terrorists who needed ethnic cleansing, starving them of food and water?

Except it's not the English, it's some fringe group of Buddhist Druids that the Russians just showed up and pushed 1/3 of Scotland and a bit of England out of the way for and drew a new circle on a map and said, "Comrades. These people have been shat upon. They need somewhere and they want here. So we give them here." Then armed them to the teeth.

[CoccoBill]

What I hate most about all of this is the apparent inability of humans to judge any of this in more nuanced terms than they would a football game. You need to pick sides, one side is right about everything and the other side wrong. Depressing af.

[OngBonga]

Yeah but a lot more Palestinians have been killed by Israelis in the last dozen (and probably more) years than the other way around. That includes in the last two weeks.

You're not this thick. You know there's a big difference between the two.

Hamas is deliberately targeting civilians. Israel, well we can debate this if you want but it's not clear like it is with Hamas. Israeli policy is reactionary, it's a response to them living next to people who want to kill them.

Hamas is motivated by hatred of Jews and a desire to evict them from the Middle East. Israel is motivated by a threat to its existence.

...would you be surprised if the Scots eventually got sick of it and elected a gov't that was going to fight back?

No. Have I acted surprised that Arabs are sick of Israeli policy? No.

I'm not surprised that Hamas have attacked Israel. Nor am I surprised by the massive response from Israel, which seemingly hasn't even got started yet.

It's funny that guerillas and terrorists always spring up on the weaker side of a conflict...

Wait, you're trying to compare a mob of armed religious nutjobs going into villages and a music festival, killing and raping, and taking hostages, with guerrilla warfare?

Hamas are not revolutionaries fighting for their independence. They are Islamic extremists, terrorists, whose goal is to wipe Israel off the map. They are motivated by religion and hatred.

[OngBonga]

What I hate most about all of this is the apparent inability of humans to judge any of this in more nuanced terms than they would a football game. You need to pick sides, one side is right about everything and the other side wrong. Depressing af.

I'm not picking sides. I might give the impression I'm pro-Israel in this matter but I'm not.

I support Israel's right to defend itself against a threat to its existence, and I support Palestine's right to defend itself against Israeli economic warfare and ethnic cleansing. But nothing the state of Israel could do can ever justify the kind of tactics we saw from Hamas.

[CoccoBill]

Yeah that wasn't directed at you, just a general observation. Nothing either side has done justifies what they're doing now. In fact, nothing either side could have done would justify it.

[OngBonga]

It doesn't help when you've got idiots like Biden using language like "team" like it's a fucking sport.

[Poopadoop]

What I hate most about all of this is the apparent inability of humans to judge any of this in more nuanced terms than they would a football game. You need to pick sides, one side is right about everything and the other side wrong. Depressing af.

I think that's part of human nature, no-one likes to be seen as sitting on the fence. That said, I think everyone here at least has been critical of both sides in this particular dispute, albeit usually with criticising one side more than the other.

[Poopadoop]

Hamas is deliberately targeting civilians. Israel, well we can debate this if you want but it's not clear like it is with Hamas. Israeli policy is reactionary, it's a response to them living next to people who want to kill them.

Uhh, ok. So those two million people Israel has cut off food and water to are 100% Hamas combatants, including women and children and old people. That's one hell of a coup they've pulled off there, trapping two million terrorists in one place.

Hamas is motivated by hatred of Jews and a desire to evict them from the Middle East. Israel is motivated by a threat to its existence.

It's as if you have no understanding of how lopsided the power balance is between Israel and the Arabs. Look at how badly Irael kicked the crap out of Egypt, Syria, Jordan, etc.. in every Arab-Israeli war that's taken place, and then realise that nothing has changed in terms of power. The population whose existence is under threat here is not Israel's. Just because the Arabs don't want them there doesn't mean they are a credible threat to Israel's very existence.

Wait, you're trying to compare a mob of armed religious nutjobs going into villages and a music festival, killing and raping, and taking hostages, with guerrilla warfare?

Nice reductio ad bananum. I said guerrilas and terrorists.

Hamas are not revolutionaries fighting for their independence.

No-one ever said they were. You're trying to reductio an bananum me out of existence here.

They are Islamic extremists, terrorists, whose goal is to wipe Israel off the map.

No-one said they were nice people. They definitely are cunts. The question is whether having to deal with a group cunts who they've effectively encouraged people to join justifies killing innocent civilians. If it's bad for Hamas to target civilians, then surely the same morality should apply to Israel.

They are motivated by religion and hatred.

Not sure it's a religious type of conflict so much as a fight over territory that is defined partly by religion, partly by ehtnicity. Both sides are being cunts. The difference is that Israel tries to justify being even bigger cunts than the Arabs by saying they're under an existential threat, when they're clearly not. Just because someone says they want to wipe you out doesn't mean they can. The only possible genocide that could happen here is one of Palestinians.

[OngBonga]

It's as if you have no understanding of how lopsided the power balance is between Israel and the Arabs

It's as if you have no understanding of how much better this is than the opposite.

[oskar]

Hamas is deliberately targeting civilians. Israel, well we can debate this if you want but it's not clear like it is with Hamas. Israeli policy is reactionary, it's a response to them living next to people who want to kill them.

Hamas is motivated by hatred of Jews and a desire to evict them from the Middle East. Israel is motivated by a threat to its existence.

I think Palestinians are in an impossible situation. If they do nothing, settlers will take their land. If they try to fight the IDF, they will lose. If they fight the settlers, they are terrorists. Of course, Hamas being jihadist morons, they chose the absolute worst option: going into recognized Israeli territory and killing civilians, but again: they lose.
The UN is clear on this. Gaza, the West Bank and Golan Heights are occupied territory and any settlements there are illegal.
If the US said: no more support for Israel unless they honor the Oslo Agreement, this conflict could end tomorrow. because realistically Hamas has no ability to hurt Israel.

What happened on October 6th kind of goes against my point, I get that. I honestly do not understand how it was possible for so many jihadists to cross one of the most secured borders in the world on motorcycles and how long it took for the IDF to respond. I don't even have a theory.

https://www.vox.com/world/2016/12/30...ed-in-5-charts
scroll down for a visualization of settlements in the west bank. Palestine will lose all its territory to settlers eventually.

[oskar]

skip to 4:20 for the main point if you're in a hurry.

[Poopadoop]

In other random news, my university has just set the record for the biggest reply-all clusterfuck in history.

It started a couple of days ago when someone chose a mailing list that included everyone at the university for a query they had that needed to be answered by one specific person. Why they thought they needed to use a mailing list at all, much less one that included the entire university, is anyone's guess.

Since then, a couple of emails went back and forth between these two people, but using reply-all so the entire university received their emails.

This morning, someone replied to one of these emails asking to be unsubscribed from the mailing list. Naturally they also chose reply-all.

Since then about 30 other people have reply-alled to ask to be taken off the mailing list too.

Interspersed amongst these emails have been emails from 3 or 4 people admonishing people for using reply-all. Naturally, to get their very important message out to as many people as possible, they also used reply-all.

Meanwhile, someone just replied-all to ask to be unsubscribed again because they keep getting the emails.

This is my favourite day at work ever!

[Poopadoop]

I honestly do not understand how it was possible for so many jihadists to cross one of the most secured borders in the world on motorcycles and how long it took for the IDF to respond. I don't even have a theory.

It was VERY bizarre. If I had to come up with a theory, I might go with it being some kind of false flag operation but I like to believe no-one would be that diabolical.

[oskar]

In other random news, my university has just set the record for the biggest reply-all clusterfuck in history.

It started a couple of days ago when someone chose a mailing list that included everyone at the university for a query they had that needed to be answered by one specific person. Why they thought they needed to use a mailing list at all, much less one that included the entire university, is anyone's guess.

Since then, a couple of emails went back and forth between these two people, but using reply-all so the entire university received their emails.

This morning, someone replied to one of these emails asking to be unsubscribed from the mailing list. Naturally they also chose reply-all.

Since then about 30 other people have reply-alled to ask to be taken off the mailing list too.

Interspersed amongst these emails have been emails from 3 or 4 people admonishing people for using reply-all. Naturally, to get their very important message out to as many people as possible, they also used reply-all.

Meanwhile, someone just replied-all to ask to be unsubscribed again because they keep getting the emails.

This is my favourite day at work ever!

50 years after the invention of email people still struggle with the concept of BCC. Honestly, this is why we need gulags. You don't use BCC on a list with more than 12 recipients: Straight to reeducation camp. There is no excuse.
First to reply-all: 50 lashes.
second and onward: death penalty.
Violence is the only language these people understand.

[oskar]

It was VERY bizarre. If I had to come up with a theory, I might go with it being some kind of false flag operation but I like to believe no-one would be that diabolical.

Don't contribute to malice... etc.
But it is indeed bizarre.

[OngBonga]

I'm quick to think conspiracy when it comes to matters of geopolitics but in this case it just doesn't make any sense. Possibly Israel "Pearl Harboured" it and basically allowed it to happen, but there's no way Hamas are working with Israel.

I think Palestinians are in an impossible situation.

They don't help themselves though, at least those who are in power in Gaza don't, and the people don't help themselves by allowing these people to be in power.

Every time they engage in conflict with Israel, Israel emerges with greater territorial control then before. In 1948, the British brokered a deal that the Jews accepted but the Arabs did not. Those borders were a great deal more generous than current borders. After the Six Day War, an attempt by an Arab coalition to deny Israel free passage of the Suez Canal, Israel occupied the Sinai Peninsula, later returned, and the Golan heights, the Gaza Strip, and the West Bank, all still occupied. These spoils of war came as a consequence of Israel defending itself against a coalition of neighbouring enemies.

When they're living in this state of constant conflict for their entire existence as a state, it's no wonder they feel the need to arm themselves to the fucking teeth and show absolutely no mercy.

[CoccoBill]

What happened on October 6th kind of goes against my point, I get that. I honestly do not understand how it was possible for so many jihadists to cross one of the most secured borders in the world on motorcycles and how long it took for the IDF to respond. I don't even have a theory.

I didn't and don't wanna bring this point up since it's likely stupid, but can't help but think howtf Shin Bet, Mossad and the US intelligence completely dropped the ball on this, and in fact I've seen unconfirmed reports about Israeli int actually warning the administration a week beforehand but having their report dismissed.

[CoccoBill]

I'm quick to think conspiracy when it comes to matters of geopolitics but in this case it just doesn't make any sense. Possibly Israel "Pearl Harboured" it and basically allowed it to happen, but there's no way Hamas are working with Israel.



They don't help themselves though, at least those who are in power in Gaza don't, and the people don't help themselves by allowing these people to be in power.

Every time they engage in conflict with Israel, Israel emerges with greater territorial control then before. In 1948, the British brokered a deal that the Jews accepted but the Arabs did not. Those borders were a great deal more generous than current borders. After the Six Day War, an attempt by an Arab coalition to deny Israel free passage of the Suez Canal, Israel occupied the Sinai Peninsula, later returned, and the Golan heights, the Gaza Strip, and the West Bank, all still occupied. These spoils of war came as a consequence of Israel defending itself against a coalition of neighbouring enemies.

When they're living in this state of constant conflict for their entire existence as a state, it's no wonder they feel the need to arm themselves to the fucking teeth and show absolutely no mercy.

What you're leaving out is the part where Israel has been outside of those wars been chipping away from the Palestinian territories with their settlements the whole time. Most of that land captured between '48 and '67 wasn't in the wars.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allon_Plan

[OngBonga]

That article refers to Israeli policy after the conclusion of the Six Day War, ie '67+, not '48-'67.

As best I can tell, 1967 is when Israel began an expansionist policy. Until then their focus was on establishing the state of Israel, which included fending off regular attacks from Palestinians in Egypt-occupied Gaza. So come 1967 with a military success over Egypt, it makes sense why Israel occupied Gaza.

Most opponents of Israeli policy appear to be of the opinion that the pre-1967 borders are what Israel should honour if they want peace. Failing this, only a mutual agreement will suffice, and that would mean a 1:1 land swap.

[OngBonga]

Ironically, Israel played a huge part in getting Hamas elected, and they did this by evacuating settlements in Gaza. Israel did this without consulting Fatah (Hamas' political rivals), and this allowed Hamas to give the impression to Palestinian voters that it was their resistance that caused Israel to withdraw.

[CoccoBill]

Well sure yes, I meant all the wars since the UN partition plan till today, most of the land gain is from settlements. Maybe returning back to '67 borders could in some sense be called fair, but I doubt Israel is gonna agree to that. And I think it shows some serious restrain from the Palestinians to agree to those, or even the '48 ones, since it was all theirs before that.

[OngBonga]

And I think it shows some serious restrain from the Palestinians to agree to those, or even the '48 ones, since it was all theirs before that.

There were Semitic-speaking people (Canaanites) living in the region that is now called Israel as far back as the Bronze Age. Palestinian claims surely date back to the Islamic conquest of 634-641 AD.

It's not so simple as "it was all theirs before Israel existed", because before Islam existed, it was all Jewish.

How far do we go back in history when deciding which group has the moral right to a territory?