*** Official Putin Started Shootin' Thread ***

[CoccoBill]

Who do you think will be stepping in to sell shale gas to Europe? Within a year we'll be hearing news of a planned pipeline across the Atlantic.

You don't think that if that was a proposition EU were interested in, it would have happened even without bombing the Nord Stream? Like I said, EU is already scrambling to get oil and gas from anyone other than Russia asap. Wouldn't it had made more sense to bomb it when it was actually in use and EU was still interested in using it?

Also, it benefits USA because it benefits Ukraine, an ally, at the cost of Russia, an enemy. USA have vested interests in the energy sector in Ukraine. If gas starts flowing through Ukraine pipes again, that's really good for Ukraine, and its investors.

Benefits Ukraine how exactly? Do you mean that Ukraine's aching to start selling gas to EU, but they aren't buying because of Nord Stream?

I'm surprised I need to explain this last part.

I think you have to explain a lot more.

Temporarily. The Russians were using the pipe as leverage. By blowing up their own pipe, they are blowing up their own leverage. It makes no sense.

Nord Streams are ~50/50 owned by Russian and German companies. There is no leverage if no one is buying Russian gas.

[OngBonga]

You don't think that if that was a proposition EU were interested in, it would have happened even without bombing the Nord Stream?

Money talks. Europe will buy whatever is cheaper. And it's absurd to think gas coming from America by ships is going to be cheaper than gas coming from Russia along pipes. An Atlantic pipeline isn't going to be finished anytime soon, only then will American gas be competitive.

Wouldn't it had made more sense to bomb it when it was actually in use and EU was still interested in using it?

Perhaps, but then again maybe it's a great deal more dangerous and environmentally risky to be blowing up a gas pipeline under pressure. The fact it's not in use makes it less serious an incident. There's still gas in there, but it's not under pressure.

Benefits Ukraine how exactly? Do you mean that Ukraine's aching to start selling gas to EU, but they aren't buying because of Nord Stream?

Transit fees. Dude come on, it's common knowledge that Russian gas, before Nord Stream, was going along pipelines that went through Ukraine. This is precisely why Nord Stream was built by Russia, so they could sell gas to Europe without having to pay transit fees to their enemy Ukraine. It gives Ukraine income and leverage. This was unacceptable for Russia, which is why they have invested many billions building two pipelines from Russia to Germany. Without Nord Stream, Russia can only send gas to Europe through the previous infrastructure, which means paying Ukraine transit fees.

With this in mind, do you understand why it is absurd for Russia to attack these pipes? They are giving up their own leverage and handing it to Ukraine.

Nord Streams are ~50/50 owned by Russian and German companies. There is no leverage if no one is buying Russian gas.

Russia were using Nord Stream as leverage. By that I man they had stopped sending gas to put pressure on the West. This only works if these pipes remain operational... the West won't cave into Russia's demands if they can't get the gas flowing through Nord Stream again.

People are arguing that Russia have destroyed their leverage. It makes absolutely no sense. I'm really surprised intelligent people like you and poop aren't seeing this.

[OngBonga]

Also, I don't understand why you're devoting so much energy to this question when in the bigger picture of Russia invading the Ukraine and force-annexing its territory, and all the blood that's being spilled to get to that point, this is a pretty minor transgression.

I guess because we agree. We tend to discuss the matters we disagree on.

How many Russian citizens believe they are defending the rights of Russians in Kherson from the Ukrainian SS Nazi brigade, or whatever bullshit justification they're using?

Lots.

You never call them fools

That's because I'm not talking to Russians who are parroting Russian propaganda.

last I recall you were arguing "yeah there's Nazis in the UA."

There are. Lots of them. Just because Russia are being cunts, doesn't mean Ukraine doesn't have a Nazi problem.

Fuck me, if you can't see which side is holding the moral high ground in a war of invasion and conquest...

NOBODY has the moral high ground here.

[Poopadoop]

That's because I'm not talking to Russians who are parroting Russian propaganda.

No-one here was parroting Western propaganda either. You just starting going off on one.

There are. Lots of them.

If you believe the Russian propaganda, yes.

NOBODY has the moral high ground here.

Wow. Just wow.

[OngBonga]

Leverage - we can sell you gas but we won't.

Not leverage - we can't sell you gas.

[Poopadoop]

When I criticise the UK gov't for valid reasons, you suggest I might be happier if I left. You don't seem to like the West much, so maybe you'd be happier if you moved to Russia.

[OngBonga]

I was merely challenging your position that RU had no motivation to do it.

They don't have any motivation to do it. It's absurd to think that destroying the very pipelines that they built to bypass Ukraine makes any sense. What possible motivation is there? To stick two fingers up to Europe? They don't need to blow it up to do that, they can simply refuse to sell gas.

No Nord Stream is a huge loss for Russia and a huge gain for Ukraine. Thus, Russia are most certainly not motivated to destroy it. They paid for it. And guess who'll be fixing it?

It's ok to be critical Ong, you just should be equally critical of both sides.

I am. You won't hear me saying these referendums are fair. I think both sides are cunts.