*** Official Putin Started Shootin' Thread ***

[Poopadoop]

Coercion can be achieved by deception. It's not necessarily outright forcing someone. It can be tricking them with lies.

Coercion
noun

the practice of persuading someone to do something by using force or threats

Too easy.

[OngBonga]

Too easy.

Try reading a more detailed definition.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coercion

I got through the opening section and concluded that your one-liner is insufficient.

[OngBonga]

Coercion is not simply making a threat. It's making someone feel like they have no alternative but to follow your demands.

If I tell you to get in the boat or you won't have another opportunity to get into England, when that is a blatant lie, I am coercing you.

[Poopadoop]

Coercion is not simply making a threat. It's making someone feel like they have no alternative but to follow your demands.

If I tell you to get in the boat or you won't have another opportunity to get into England, when that is a blatant lie, I am coercing you.

I mean you're obviously just digging in your heels here when you know you're wrong and have been proven wrong, so I'm not going to bother entertaining you any further.

[OngBonga]

The UK's moral and legal responsibility starts when these people enter UK territory.

This is probably why we're sending boats out to stop them getting into our territorial waters.

[Poopadoop]

This is probably why we're sending boats out to stop them getting into our territorial waters.

We're not actually. They were talking about doing it, but I think it's actually impractical and/or possibly illegal to do so.

[OngBonga]

We're not actually. They were talking about doing it, but I think it's actually impractical and/or possibly illegal to do so.

Well there's plenty of evidence of boats being escorted to shore, rather than being turned away or sunk by battleships. Presumably, that's because they reached territorial waters, which, iirc, is 2 miles from the shore.

[MadMojoMonkey]

We're not actually. They were talking about doing it, but I think it's actually impractical and/or possibly illegal to do so.

I'm glad to hear that because my response to what ong suggested was to say aloud, "That's fucked up!"

[OngBonga]

I'm glad to hear that because my response to what ong suggested was to say aloud, "That's fucked up!"

On the one hand, you stop them by force. On the other hand, you create a business opportunity for people traffickers. There is no good solution. It's fucked up either way.

France have to do their bit. What they're doing is fucked up. They are basically doing fuck all because they don't want these migrants.

Poop seems to think we should be nice to France. We are nice to France. They are our allies and we have excellent trade with them. We visit their country as tourists as have good relations with their people. We even teach their language at school. The UK and France are friends. Like most friends, we bicker about things. That's normal international relations.

[Poopadoop]

France have to do their bit. What they're doing is fucked up. They are basically doing fuck all because they don't want these migrants.

The refugees are trying to get to the UK. You think France should stop them trying to do so, i.e., they should be breaking international law on our behalf. It's not a reasonable expectation.

And let's say some of them are economic migrants, and some are legitimate refugees. You expect France to sort out who is who for us? Why should they? Those people need to be allowed into the UK to have their cases heard here. It's our responsibility, not France's.

[Poopadoop]

The whole problem here is the media has convinced people like Ong and a lot of others that it's France's responsibility to deal with our immigration issues. Like France should break intn'l law to detain these people who are trying to get to the UK, either for legitimate reasons or not. That's not how border control laws work.

Next they'll be wanting to build a wall across the English channel and make France pay for it. It really is that absurd.

[OngBonga]

No, my solution is to offer them a ferry ride. Yours is, I don't know what yours is. Care to share?

Sure. My solution is for them to fill out the required paperwork in Paris, instead of heading for Calais and hoping to bump into a dodgy fucker with a boat. If they have the required documents, then by all means give them a ferry ride.

It's just odd because it almost sounds like you want them to be able to come here, but don't want to help them do it.

I want legal, documents, and safe migration to the UK. Not sure why that's so confusing for you. You seem to be happy to encourage seriously dangerous and illegal methods.

[Poopadoop]

Sure. My solution is for them to fill out the required paperwork in Paris, instead of heading for Calais and hoping to bump into a dodgy fucker with a boat. If they have the required documents, then by all means give them a ferry ride.

Pretty sure there's no legal requirement for asylum seekers to fill in paperwork before they enter a country. Could be wrong though.

Edit: From UK gov't website on seeking asylum:

You should apply when you arrive in the UK

I want legal, documents, and safe migration to the UK. Not sure why that's so confusing for you. You seem to be happy to encourage seriously dangerous and illegal methods.

Offering people a free ferry ride is pretty dangerous I guess yeah. Good point.

[OngBonga]

It's not 2 miles, it's a lot more. Presumably there are no international waters between Calais and Dover, our territorial waters will border each other, though we'll both be obliged to allow free passage of shipping.

[OngBonga]

Pretty sure there's no legal requirement for asylum seekers to fill in paperwork before they enter a country. Could be wrong though.

Well I don't know about this, but they generally need to do more than turn up at ports undocumented.

Offering people a free ferry ride is pretty dangerous I guess yeah. Good point.

Wait, you mean just go and pick everyone up from Calais? Blimey. I thought you meant escort them in, pick them up off the boats. My apologies. I didn't realise you were actually talking about just going to Calais and saying "who wants a free ferry ride to the UK?"

[Poopadoop]

Wait, you mean just go and pick everyone up from Calais? Blimey. I thought you meant escort them in, pick them up off the boats. My apologies. I didn't realise you were actually talking about just going to Calais and saying "who wants a free ferry ride to the UK?"

If they're seeking asylum in the UK, yes, I'm saying we should do this. It would stop the human trafficking and be a lot safer for them than coming over in dinghies.

You OTOH, seem to want them all to somehow find their way to Paris to fill in the paperwork that our own gov't website says they should fill in when they arrive in the UK, which afaik is in accordance with international law on dealing with asylum seekers.

[Poopadoop]

Here's the ukgov website on asylum applications. It's pretty clear you should apply when you enter the UK, not before. Nothing in there about filling in forms or showing your paperwork at any time before you get here.

https://www.gov.uk/claim-asylum

Your solution seems to make it harder for them to get to the UK and seek asylum by adding in more hoops to jump through (get to Paris, fill in an application, provide documents, etc.). Pretty sure that's both illegal and not going to help stop human trafficking.