The official Muslim Madness thread

[salsa4ever]

SAUDI Arabia's judiciary is reviewing a sentence of six months in jail and 200 lashes handed down to a gang rape victim, official media has reported.

Am I the only one who is absolutely enraged? I mean I don't get enraged very easily or very fast, and I have a high tolerance for differences in custom and culture, but this is absolutely mind-blowing. Can someone clarify whether this shit is actually going on or whether I'm just being emotionally manipulated by the media, because it sure is fucking working I can't think straight.

Having done some preliminary research I found out that the ruling class including the royalty in Saudi Arabia are Sunni (majority), and the rapists were also Sunni, and the victim was Shia. Also, that the actual crime that the woman was charged with was not fornication, but being in the same vehicle as an unmarried man. Whether she willingly got into the vehicle or was forced into it is unclear on the facts. The men received token punishment.



EXTRACT FROM ARTICLE:

"There is currently a review process being carried out into the ruling by the judicial system,'' the SPA news agency quoted Foreign Minister Prince Saud al-Faisal as telling reporters from the US-hosted Middle East peace conference.

The sentence against the 19-year-old girl in the ultra-conservative Muslim state has attracted widespread international condemnation, including from human rights groups and the White House.

And the prince of Saudi Arabia has the balls to say this: "What is aggravating in this matter is that individual acts like these are used to attack the Saudi people and its government,'' SPA quoted Prince Saud as saying.

[mcatdog]

Can someone clarify whether this shit is actually going on or whether I'm just being emotionally manipulated by the media...

This is an extreme example, but yes. This type of event is common in most of the Middle Eastern dictatorships which are basically sexist prisons for women. Personally, I blame the dictators, not the religion. I refuse to believe this is what most Muslims want.

I predict that this thread turns into a clusterfuck because of your "Muslims please die" title but I think it's much more important to focus attention on the fact that things like this are going on every day in the Middle East, and the rest of the world is doing nothing about it, in fact we're helping to prop up these dictatorships with our oil money.

[salsa4ever]

I have accepted your prediction and unlocked the thread with a modified title.

[euphoricism]

This type of activity in the middle east is nothing new. The region is not exactly well known for their civil rights record, and I think almost everyone would agree that this is indeed fucked up.

However, I cannot in good conscience allow a post with "muslims please die" in the title to be a topic on our forums. For that alone it is earning a lock, and That was a stupid thing to do, salsa. Especially as a moderator.

{Locked}

[Xianti]

I agree with eupho that the original title was in poor taste.

Apparently, salsa has unlocked this topic after editing the title. Fair enough. Let the discussion commence.

[salsa4ever]

See above.

I admit that I had a momentary lapse of judgment inspired by the absolute shock, outrage, disbelief that clouded my mind.

One could say it's naievete on my part. Or you could say that I have preserved enough humanity that I can still have feelings strong enough to temporarily overcome that the censors that modern society has imposed.

You could say I reacted in a 1940s fashion to a 1490s practice.

[euphoricism]

Yes, you can wish death to all the muslims as long as you want in the privacy of your own head. But not here. If you feel that is modern society censoring you, well, I guess that's good to know. It certainly changes my opinion of you.

[Xianti]

Take it easy, you guys. Let's get back on track with the topic at hand.

[salsa4ever]

Yes, you can wish death to all the muslims as long as you want in the privacy of your own head. But not here. If you feel that is modern society censoring you, well, I guess that's good to know. It certainly changes my opinion of you.

when I say censors of modern society / civilized society I mean that positively, as in that we are able to stop ourselves from raping people and exercise the willpower to be tolerant of other people's religions, even when these religions appear to teach intolerance, repression, sexual discrimination and inspire intolerable laws.

It's the opposite of the barbaric society / uncivilized society to which I refer in my OP

[Knytestorme]

My understanding of this case was that she essentially got convicted under the Sharia law of "crimes against chastity" which is the muslim way of saying she brought it on herself by enraging the lust of good muslim men and forcing them to abandon the ways or rightousness.

I'd say that if good men can't control themselves enough to not rape someone because they accidently gave an upskirt or was showing a little too much leg then I'm not sure how good they are in the first place.

[swiggidy]

She's being punished for having an affair, which she admitted to.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7112999.stm

[Lukie]

basically, if you ever have a chance to live a second life, don't be a female in saudi arabia, china, iran, etc

[Galapogos]

basically, if you ever have a chance to live a second life, don't be a female in saudi arabia, china, iran, etc

... or Lukie

Ba dum pssshhhh!

[bigspenda73]

basically, if you ever have a chance to live a second life, don't be a female in saudi arabia, china, iran, etc

... or Lukie

Ba dum pssshhhh!

QFT

POTD

I concur

ld0

ship it crucial

lolzzzzzzz

[salsa4ever]

She's being punished for having an affair, which she admitted to.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7112999.stm

any prizes for guessing how the "confession" came about?


Even if Allah forbid, she did have an affair, which is against the law in their country, the thought of meting out additional punishment to a victim of rape upon the reporting of said rape should be utterly repulsive. Anyone with half a brain would realize the intent of the Saudi authorities is to procure utter fear (as well as shame) so that any future rape victims know "better" than to report.


I think it's prudent to remember that we cannot apply Western principles of "rule of law" to countries for which the law is simply a device to institutionalize the oppression of women.

[swiggidy]

I think it's prudent to remember that we cannot apply Western principles of "rule of law" to countries for which the law is simply a device to institutionalize the oppression of women.

Good point. This whole situation is very shitty.

They "say" they doubled the sentence because she tried to use the media to get out of a punishment. We'll never know the truth which also blows.

Wasn't trying to undermine your thread, just wanted to provide another nugget for debate which I won't otherwise be offering any useful insight to.

[sinky]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7114439.stm

[WillburForce]

whilst this is all obviously horrific, the West shouldn't get all high and mighty.

Only 30 odd years ago in Ireland for example girls were lashed by the Catholic nuns for courting with men.

Also America has a pretty dire human rights records to this day.

[Da GOAT]

Catholic Church were bastards yea, my parents didnt go through any of that. dunno about my grandparents, could ask them but may cause for some awkward moments.

back to OP, Salsa great thread bcoz i heard about this a few days ago from the gf. i myself HATE rape with a passion esp. since i was on the jury for a rape case and the guy didtn get life bcoz jury ppl are retards.

I did think about doing something for this woman and do something active for her case but dunn what we can do really. id donate/march etc

[salsa4ever]

whilst this is all obviously horrific, the West shouldn't get all high and mighty.

Only 30 odd years ago in Ireland for example girls were lashed by the Catholic nuns for courting with men.

Also America has a pretty dire human rights records to this day.

Hey, why stop at Islam? The Christian Right sucks too. It is scary though, how much power they too, still have in politics... more than most people think. At least they're not at the top of a dictatorship, or we'd all be screwed - we'd be just like Saudi Arabia or Sudan. What happened in Ireland shows this. At least it's being pared back. It's scary the views that a lot of people in this world hold. Actually, it's not *that* scary compared to the fact they want to institutionalize their beliefs in law.

a sample of their commonly attributed beliefs I extracted from Wikipedia as being "commonly held"

1. Opposition to sex education classes in public schools. A spectrum of views exist, from advocating no sex education in public schools to advocating abstinence to advocating modesty, chastity, with education about the purpose of advertising
2. Opposition to birth control
3. Opposition to divorce (more widely as social disapproval rather than calls for legal restrictions)
4. Opposition to prostitution in the US and elsewhere
5. Opposition to pornography[10] because they characterize certain sex acts as despicable[11] or they view it as immoral exploitation of persons
6. An emphasis on the value of the nuclear family in raising children

7. Regulation and restriction of the publication and public exhibition of media with sexual content, both pornography and erotica.

8. Britain’s status as a constitutionally Christian nation should be protected and restored, for instance by enforcing the Blasphemy Law, increasing school prayer and regarding those in public life as accountable to God.

9. Promotion of conservative or literal interpretations of the Bible as the basis for moral values, and enforcing such values by legislation

10. Opposition to Wicca and other Neopagan faiths receiving equal recognition and freedom of religious expression
11. Opposition to "judicial activism" by federal judges giving decisions
12. Opposition to federal funding of:
specific areas of scientific research
development of the arts

13. Support for state sanctioned prayer in public schools
14. Modification of public school curriculum, including:
Opposition to the teaching of evolution
Promotion of the teaching of creationism and intelligent design as opposed to evolution [13] [14]

15. Support for the war in Iraq

[mcatdog]

Salsa,

That's all true but almost all of those things are

a) nowhere near as bad as what happens to women in countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran.
b) just the beliefs of a religious group, not actually the law.

I mean in Iran a lot of women have been buried in the ground up to their necks and stoned to death just for committing adultery or for being forced into prostitution by their parents. You can't even begin to compare that to very debatable issues like judicial activism or federal funding for art and science.

I think the problem is that we in the West are afraid to sound "high and mighty" when we speak out against the oppression of women by dictatorships like Saudi Arabia and Iran. We shouldn't be though. We aren't any better than regular people from other countries, but regular people aren't the ones who are responsible for this, the dictators are.

In fact the people who respond to these events by saying "Look at what happens in the West too" are IMO the ones who sound high and mighty because they are sort of implying that people in the third world still aren't good enough to deserve democracy.

To support the point that making women stay in their house and never talk to anyone outside their families, isn't what everyday Muslims want: The three countries with the largest Muslim populations (Indonesia, India, and Pakistan) either have or did have a woman president, which the US has never had.

[Anosmic]

Hey, why stop at Islam?

Why start at Islam?

Let's recap the discussion so far:
You called for the deaths of muslims because some muslims we punishing a woman for being raped.
You were rightly told off and you edited your title.
You were told that the woman was being punished for the crime of adultery (not for being raped).
You then declare the confession bogus and their criminal system a mysognistic one.
The rant then degenerates into a general free-for-all on how Relgious Peoples They Do Sux.


Let me see if I can distill the argument here into a shorter form. Are you saying that you think Saudi Arabia sucks because their sense of morality doesn't agree with yours and that you think the religious right sucks because their sense of morality doesn't agree with yours?

[salsa4ever]

Hey, why stop at Islam?

Why start at Islam?

Let me see if I can distill the argument here into a shorter form. Are you saying that you think Saudi Arabia sucks because their sense of morality doesn't agree with yours and that you think the religious right sucks because their sense of morality doesn't agree with yours?

Sure you can. I'm saying they both suck because they either impose, or are trying to impose punishment (corporal inhumane over-the-top punishment in the former case) to people whose sense of morality they do not agree with, and the legal prohibition of acts that do not conform to their so-called morality.

Can't they just get their fucking noses out of people's asses and let people be "amoral"? Let the woman face the wrath of Allah for whatever sins she did. If Allah wants to give her 2000 lashes in hell, so be it. But it's repulsive that these Allah wannabes are instituting the wrath of god on this poor woman.

P.S. are you willing to say that the admission of adultery is not probably improperly obtained?

[salsa4ever]

You then declare the confession bogus and their criminal system a mysognistic one.

Are you disagreeing?

[Miniburger]

I agree with Salsa, religion scares the shit out of me when they try to enforce it on you. Should just be kept out of politics, science and sex education :P . Just read in the news paper that in Sudan, a British citizen who's there to work as an english teacher, faces charges of 1 year in prison and 8 whip lashes.. For letting one of her 7 year old students name his teddy bear as Muhammed.

[Anosmic]

Can't they just get their fucking noses out of people's asses and let people be "amoral"? Let the woman face the wrath of Allah for whatever sins she did. If Allah wants to give her 2000 lashes in hell, so be it. But it's repulsive that these Allah wannabes are instituting the wrath of god on this poor woman.

And the bloke, right. The bloke she was allegedly having the affair with is also going to get whipped etc.

In the west we frequently have laws against drugs even though it's one person privately doing something to themselves. Primarily I guess because they are doing themselves harm. Now one could argue that laws created by such religious group are seen by them as being to prevent people doing spiritual harm to themselves.

Where you draw these lines influences where the discussion goes.

P.S. are you willing to say that the admission of adultery is not probably improperly obtained?

I have no knowledge of Saudi jurisprudence. I'm willing to bet I'd be disgusted with how the confession was obtained... but is that "improper"... again different values.

Don't get me wrong I'm not a "respect everyone's beliefs" kinda guy, if something is stupid or disgusting I'm willing to say it. But I'm not opening up that can of worms right now.

[salsa4ever]

Salsa,

That's all true but almost all of those things are

a) nowhere near as bad as what happens to women in countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran.
b) just the beliefs of a religious group, not actually the law.

I mean in Iran a lot of women have been buried in the ground up to their necks and stoned to death just for committing adultery or for being forced into prostitution by their parents. You can't even begin to compare that to very debatable issues like judicial activism or federal funding for art and science.

I think the problem is that we in the West are afraid to sound "high and mighty" when we speak out against the oppression of women by dictatorships like Saudi Arabia and Iran. We shouldn't be though. We aren't any better than regular people from other countries, but regular people aren't the ones who are responsible for this, the dictators are.

In fact the people who respond to these events by saying "Look at what happens in the West too" are IMO the ones who sound high and mighty because they are sort of implying that people in the third world still aren't good enough to deserve democracy.

To support the point that making women stay in their house and never talk to anyone outside their families, isn't what everyday Muslims want: The three countries with the largest Muslim populations (Indonesia, India, and Pakistan) either have or did have a woman president, which the US has never had.

Yeah I agree. I only brought it up 'cos someone mentioned Ireland. Thank god (no pun intended) we in the western countries have it nowhere near as bad as saudi, iran, even malaysia & indonesia.


Sometimes I wonder how many people have actually been to some of the muslim countries. The only middle eastern country I've been is Israel (beautiful place), but I was in rural Malaysia and Indonesia (rural enough that I got Malaria). I've seen first hand some of the trafficking and exploitation of women and (all children but particularly) girls in Thailand, Cambodia, and the Phillipines. I befriended a lot of people who had some of the most fucked up paths through life.


I've really wanted to go to Saudi Arabia, and I still do. I guess my world citizenship transcends religion and morality, and that's just the way it should be.

[Pelion]

You realise the woman involved is probably a muslim too? Is she also going to die when you exact your punishment?

[spoonitnow]

This isn't really about religion or culture or sex or race or any of that crap.

Stupid fuckers will always be stupid fuckers, and everyone will have to suffer because of the stupid fuckedness of their stupid fucking stupid fuckers.

\thread

[salsa4ever]

The madness continues. Following the conviction for allowing a child to name his teddy bear muhammed (which incidentally was the child's name), we have this:

***SNIP***

HUNDREDS of Sudanese Muslims, waving green Islamic flags, took to the streets of Khartoum overnight demanding death for the British teacher convicted of insulting Islam after her class named a teddy bear Mohammad.

"No one lives who insults the Prophet," the protesters chanted, a day after school teacher Gillian Gibbons, 54, was sentenced to 15 days in jail and deportation from Sudan.

[Ash256]

This isn't really about religion or culture or sex or race or any of that crap.

Stupid fuckers will always be stupid fuckers, and everyone will have to suffer because of the stupid fuckedness of their stupid fucking stupid fuckers.

\thread

agreed

[Pelion]

also agreed.

And this thread title is tasteless. Stop generalizing to an entire religion.

[mrhappy333]

Thank you all for taking an interest in this fucked up world we live in. Now everyone in here go out and try to change it for the better.

[Jack Sawyer]

You can't gamble in Muslim countries

[martindcx1e]

lol iran is gonna ban rap music http://www.breitbart.com/article.php...show_article=1

[will641]

here is what people are forgetting (I think) when they are talking about Islam. There are 7 million muslims in the U.S. no? probably 99.9% of them don't feel this way that the extremists do. The fact of the matter is the small percentage argument doesn't work, and here is why.

In the late 20's-mid 40's Germany was ruled by Nazi's. Now, only a small percentage of Germans in that era were supporters of the Nazi party. Most people hated it, they just wouldn't publicly say so. However, that small percentage was enough to cause millions of deaths, chaos, and destruction. Oh yeah, and they had control of most of Europe.

Now going to back to muslims, only a small percentage of muslims are radical psychopaths, but guess what, they are responsible for god knows how many deaths since 9/11, and are responsible for terrorist attacks mounting nearly 9000 since 9/11.

[Miffed22001]

how have all these threads not been locked yet. last time we had like 5 people perma banned in threads like this.