*** The Official MAGAposting thread ***

[OngBonga]

It's not hard to see that ong isn't really trying, here.

Not really. I mean, I don't care what other people think. If people are dumb enough to tolerate Islam while pretending their oppression is comparable to Christianity, then all I can do is hope I'm the one who's wrong.

[MadMojoMonkey]

Not really. I mean, I don't care what other people think.

If you didn't care what people think, you wouldn't be trying to change their minds.

If people are dumb enough to tolerate Islam while pretending their oppression is comparable to Christianity, then all I can do is hope I'm the one who's wrong.

It's not that. It's that you're pretending they're dumb over 1 issue you already know you disagree on. The reality is that you know they're not dumb, because of their positions on many other issues, and that's not a factor in their position. The reality is that they're answering all your concerns with clearly intelligent positions, yet those positions don't mean as much to you as your own. It's a cop-out for you to pretend that people you know are intelligent are dumb just because you disagree on this.

Besides if we talk about anything else, we're more friendly toward each other. Why are we harping one of the few subjects that increases tension?


Let's just accept that there's disagreement on this. You believe what you believe and other people don't all agree with you. So what?
That doesn't mean anyone is stupid. We just disagree.

[Poopadoop]

It's not that he's saying it's a 'bad' religion with some fucked up rules when it's adhered to passionately. I don't think anyone can dispute that (though I think we've made some good arguments about that being true of many religions).

It's the idea that everyone who belongs to that religion is by default dangerous until proven otherwise and shouldn't be allowed to emigrate here, and that if they are allowed, they'll breed like rabbits and take over and turn the UK into a theocracy. It's just such paranoid babble.

[boost]

It's not that he's saying it's a 'bad' religion with some fucked up rules when it's adhered to passionately. I don't think anyone can dispute that (though I think we've made some good arguments about that being true of many religions).

It is true of many religions. But the question is, how easy is it to go from benign to miseryville within the constraints of the religion? If you want to lump all Abrahamic religions together and say they're all equally bad, well, I disagree, but they certainly are hard to distinguish on the spectrum when you have to zoom out enough to get Jainism within view. Can you at least grant Jainism is a better set of ideas than Islam?

It's the idea that everyone who belongs to that religion is by default dangerous until proven otherwise and shouldn't be allowed to emigrate here, and that if they are allowed, they'll breed like rabbits and take over and turn the UK into a theocracy. It's just such paranoid babble.

To be clear, I picked up on some of these vibes from Ong's posts as well. Just because I think you guys are forcing yourselves to be obtuse on whether or not Islam is a bad set of ideas doesn't mean I think immigrants should be turned away based on their religion, or whatever. Just like differences in the sexes, there's a huge overlap in the goodness of the adherents of different religions. There are tons of Muslim people I'd much rather have here than tons of non Muslim people.

[boost]

If you didn't care what people think, you wouldn't be trying to change their minds.


It's not that. It's that you're pretending they're dumb over 1 issue you already know you disagree on. The reality is that you know they're not dumb, because of their positions on many other issues, and that's not a factor in their position. The reality is that they're answering all your concerns with clearly intelligent positions, yet those positions don't mean as much to you as your own. It's a cop-out for you to pretend that people you know are intelligent are dumb just because you disagree on this.

Besides if we talk about anything else, we're more friendly toward each other. Why are we harping one of the few subjects that increases tension?


Let's just accept that there's disagreement on this. You believe what you believe and other people don't all agree with you. So what?
That doesn't mean anyone is stupid. We just disagree.

I like this post a lot. In these times we all do tend to have this sick attraction to that which divides us.

That being said, and while I don't think you guys are dumb, I disagree with the bold. "They're all the same, just with different window dressings." is not an intelligent take on religions. It's a cop out that avoids further inquiry. I think the root of it tends to be good intentions-- a desire to not be intolerant, but that doesn't make it intelligent.

[MadMojoMonkey]

That being said, and while I don't think you guys are dumb, I disagree with the bold.

...
Sorry I said you're intelligent..?
I said the people disagreeing with ong are presenting intelligent arguments. Whether or not they're "right" isn't what I'm saying.

"They're all the same, just with different window dressings." is not an intelligent take on religions. It's a cop out that avoids further inquiry. I think the root of it tends to be good intentions-- a desire to not be intolerant, but that doesn't make it intelligent.

I never said that, BTW.

If anything, I'm saying that discussing ong's position on Islam is an avoidable bit of nonsense. It comes up from time to time, and I admit I've had my go at him, but when I realized that he's trying to change my mind (and I his), and that he's not really open to changing his mind (me, neither), it just became a thing to acknowledge and move on.

We agree on some stuff, not everything. Talking about stuff we don't yet know we disagree on is fun. Talking about stuff we already know we disagree on isn't. For me.

Frankly, if you guys want to drop another 3 pages on this, that's fine.

[boost]

...
Sorry I said you're intelligent..?
I said the people disagreeing with ong are presenting intelligent arguments. Whether or not they're "right" isn't what I'm saying.


I never said that, BTW.

If anything, I'm saying that discussing ong's position on Islam is an avoidable bit of nonsense. It comes up from time to time, and I admit I've had my go at him, but when I realized that he's trying to change my mind (and I his), and that he's not really open to changing his mind (me, neither), it just became a thing to acknowledge and move on.

We agree on some stuff, not everything. Talking about stuff we don't yet know we disagree on is fun. Talking about stuff we already know we disagree on isn't. For me.

Frankly, if you guys want to drop another 3 pages on this, that's fine.

Again, great post. It takes a lot to recognize these sorts of no wins-- as you can see I still have a lot of trouble resisting the urge to argue, but I'm trying to work towards this sort of ability to give it a rest. Also, the bolded warms my cynical heart.