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  1. #3751
    The day Trump announced he was running, he said "I'm gonna build a Wall, and Mexico is going to pay for it."
    I think you underestimate how many people find this more palatable than importing voters.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  2. #3752
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    I just don't see how you can look at what he's doing and think any of it is in good faith. Selling nuclear technology to SA is making america great? Denying intelligence reports and siding with SA on Kashoggi killings is making america great? Is calling the press the enemy of the people making america great? What about saying Mexico is "sending murders and rapists"? Saying you don't believe crime statistics because you "just have to look at them(mexicans)" to know they're bad hombres. What part of that is anything but playing to the primal fears of his voter base to get him re-elected? That is the only thing he cares about.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  3. #3753
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I think you underestimate how many people find this more palatable than importing voters.
    Talking about right wingers perpetrating conspiracy theories. What the fuck are you talking about? North Carolina is in another massive voter fraud scandal - member when I tried to explain Wuf this a year ago - now it's all new and all different voter fraud in NC! But somehow the only real voter fraud is Trumps tweed that California imported 3 million illegal votes. That is the only real news. All other news is fake news.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  4. #3754
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    So you want to ask people what religion they are as a prerequisite of allowing them to immigrate? Even America doesn't do that.

    What religions would you let in/disallow? Satanists? Jehovahs Witnesses? Mormons?
    I would expect a question on an immigration application form to ask about religion, with the caveat that you don't have to answer, or an option saying "prefer not to say".

    I would not allow anyone in, whatever their religion, including atheism, if there was any reason to believe there was a conflict with British values. Equality of women is certainly something I would consider a British value.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  5. #3755
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I think you underestimate how many people find this more palatable than importing voters.
    Didn't Obama set a record for deporting people? How does that fit into the conspiracy then?
  6. #3756
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I would expect a question on an immigration application form to ask about religion, with the caveat that you don't have to answer, or an option saying "prefer not to say".
    And what are you going to do with the answers?


    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I would not allow anyone in, whatever their religion, including atheism, if there was any reason to believe there was a conflict with British values. Equality of women is certainly something I would consider a British value.
    So by your logic, anyone who says 'muslim' to the above question is automatically disqualified.
  7. #3757
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar
    Selling nuclear technology to SA is making america great
    Well done for finding something that outrages me too. I'll say this... there's a very good chance that it's out of Trump's hands, in the sense he's not the person who controls American foreign policy.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  8. #3758
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    Didn't Obama set a record for deporting people? How does that fit into the conspiracy then?
    Maybe he did, idk... what was the net immigration taking into account deportations? How does this compare with Republican presidents?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  9. #3759
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post

    I would not allow anyone in, whatever their religion, including atheism, if there was any reason to believe there was a conflict with British values. Equality of women is certainly something I would consider a British value.
    Can we also kick people out who don't support British values? Even if they're native?
  10. #3760
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Well done for finding something that outrages me too. I'll say this... there's a very good chance that it's out of Trump's hands, in the sense he's not the person who controls American foreign policy.
    Then what the fuck is he doing being president???

    You think during the Cuban missile crisis Kennedy just sat around waiting for someone else to make decisions for him?
  11. #3761
    So by your logic, anyone who says 'muslim' to the above question is automatically disqualified.
    That would be a policy I could support.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  12. #3762
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Maybe he did, idk... what was the net immigration taking into account deportations? How does this compare with Republican presidents?
    Well it depends. Are you referring to all immigrants or just the poor brown ones who are the most likely to vote D?
  13. #3763
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    Can we also kick people out who don't support British values? Even if they're native?
    No. We tend to put them in jail, or if they haven't actually committed a crime, they tend to be social outcasts.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  14. #3764
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    Trump build less wall than Obama - 0 vs 150+ miles. I wonder why he ever bothered to try to build anything - he didn't need to. Yesterday he tweeted out a video of fence replacement that was taken a year ago, showing the replacement of existing fencing that was planned and budgeted under Obama. That is all it took. Trumples are eating it up like a baby koala is eating up their mothers pap.

    You're stuck in 2000 with your fear of muslims, Ong. A tiny tiny fraction of mass shootings and terror attacks in the past decade in america were carried out by muslims. White americans have committed way more and more lethal terror attacks than muslim immigrants. I hate being an apologist for muslims, but that fear is not based in facts.
    Last edited by oskar; 02-21-2019 at 02:43 PM.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  15. #3765
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    Then what the fuck is he doing being president???
    Pretending t be that guy. First day in office, he gets pulled to one side and is told who really runs the show. If he doesn't play ball, Kennedy.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  16. #3766
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar
    You're stuck in 2000 with your fear of muslims, Ong.
    I'm not afraid of Muslims. This isn't about terrorism. I despise their oppression of women, and their unwillingness to integrate into the societies they migrate to.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  17. #3767
    If one just looks at Mexico, here's the numbers:

    https://www.migrationpolicy.org/prog...tion-over-time

    1970 was when the number of immigrants living in the US started going up dramatically, until they peaked around 2010 and then started falling again.

    There was an R president for 26 of those 40 years.
  18. #3768
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Pretending t be that guy. First day in office, he gets pulled to one side and is told who really runs the show.
    Putin?


    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    If he doesn't play ball, pee pee tape.
    fyp
  19. #3769
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I despise their oppression of women, and their unwillingness to integrate into the societies they migrate to.
    You're unwilling to integrate into society...
  20. #3770
    Mexico is a non-Islamic country and is right next to America.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  21. #3771
    The Russia hysteria is more media nonsense. Ignore it, I do.

    You're unwilling to integrate into society...
    I'm integrated. I work one day a week at Oxfam as a volunteer.

    But even so, I was born here, so were my parents, and I don't have another passport. British state has no choice but to consider me British.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  22. #3772
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Mexico is a non-Islamic country and is right next to America.
    I thought your argument was that the Ds are conspiring to import voters. That seems like the easiest place to bring them in from. A lot are willing, it's close, there's no Wall to get over, etc.
  23. #3773
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    I thought your argument was that the Ds are conspiring to import voters. That seems like the easiest place to bring them in from. A lot are willing, it's close, there's no Wall to get over, etc.
    Oh yeah I was distracted by talk of Islam.

    Mexican immigration will be subject to various factors. Also, are Mexican immigrants easy to victimise and politically manipulate?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  24. #3774
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    The Russia hysteria is more media nonsense. Ignore it, I do.
    yeah all those indictments related to collusion with Russia? Witch hunt.


    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I'm integrated. I work one day a week at Oxfam as a volunteer.
    I work five days a week, like most people. So I'm five times as integrated as you. But if I thought my wife should wear a veil you'd want to boot me out.


    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    But even so, I was born here, so were my parents, and I don't have another passport. British state has no choice but to consider me British.
    Well, hypothetically they could still decide to kick you out.
  25. #3775
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Oh yeah I was distracted by talk of Islam.

    Mexican immigration will be subject to various factors. Also, are Mexican immigrants easy to victimise and politically manipulate?
    One would certainly have to believe so to think they're being imported on purpose since they make up the biggest single group of immigrants to the US.

    But I guess we've seen there's no evidence that more are allowed in by D presidents than by R ones. So forget it.
  26. #3776
    I work five days a week, like most people. So I'm five times as integrated as you. But if I thought my wife should wear a veil you'd want to boot me out.
    Well lucky for you, you grew up in a country that has values very similar to ours, which means you don't have to work as hard to convince us that you personally have acceptable values.

    But yeah, make your wife cover up her face in public and I might jump on the "deport poop" bandwagon. Your wife can stay though if she wants.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  27. #3777
    Well, hypothetically they could still decide to kick you out.
    I doubt that very much.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  28. #3778
    But I guess we've seen there's no evidence that more are allowed in by D presidents than by R ones. So forget it.
    Show me evidence that Mexican voters tend to vote for whoever was in power when they came in, and I'll listen to this argument.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  29. #3779
    Not just cover her face... if you refuse to let her drive, or go to college, if you beat her because your dinner isn't acceptable, then yeah, kindly fuck off back to where you came from.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  30. #3780
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    Why do you keep pivoting? You clearly called muslims a security threat. When I tell you they're clearly not they become a "cultural" threat - whatever that means, and you start making shit up. What percentage of american muslims think that women shouldn't drive? Shouldn't go to collage? Where do you get the domestic violence stats from? Is this based in reality, or is it just your feelings?
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  31. #3781
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar
    Why do you keep pivoting? You clearly called muslims a security threat.
    You assumed terrorism from the "security threat". Actually I think the bigger problem is a future civil war, when it's clear that integration is not forthcoming and there is a serious risk that an Islamic political party can gain power. That's a distant threat, but one that I consider to be real.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  32. #3782
    What percentage of muslims think that women shouldn't drive?
    I don't think I've ever seen an Islamic woman driving.

    Where do you get the domestic violence stats from?
    I was citing this more in the context of British values, rather than charging Muslims with this accusation. I don't know if domestic violence is higher amongst the Islamic population than non-Islamic, but I would expect it to be, since their men tend to consider women as subordinate, a result of their religious indoctrination.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  33. #3783
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    So you make these claim based on your personal believes, and you think political action should be taken based on your feelings. If this sounds harsh, please correct me.
    The claim that you haven't seen muslim women drive is curious. What percentage of british muslim women even wear hijabs?
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  34. #3784
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    I disagree. If the other side is routinely coming up with dumb shit, at some point it's better to just close your mind to it than to keep thinking 'oh really? So and so runs a child porn ring out of a pizza joint?'

    Sure my side will do some dumb shit and some shit that's corrupt, and they'll get caught. That doesn't mean I should listen to tinfoil hatters who come up with implausible fantasies.
    You're strawmanning me here.

    I did not say that you should consider what T_D has to say as credible, I said that you should not dismiss things because T_D supports them.

    I'm not even saying it's crazy to be a little more skeptical of things that fringe nutsos peddle, but it's a dangerous habit because it forces you into a reactionary mode in which you reject the truth should a nutso happen to espouse it. When you do this, you're allowing fringe nutso's to control your world view. That can't be a good look.
  35. #3785
    Well this one shouldn't be allowed to drive, she's on the fuckign phone!

    https://www.videoblocks.com/video/mo...5ma5zzj3bebf4c

    I'd still bang her though.
  36. #3786
    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    I did not say that you should consider what T_D has to say as credible, I said that you should not dismiss things because T_D supports them.
    And I think you should until someone credible confirms the story.

    I wouldn't listen to some radical SJW lefty website either, if that helps.


    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    I'm not even saying it's crazy to be a little more skeptical of things that fringe nutsos peddle, but it's a dangerous habit because it forces you into a reactionary mode in which you reject the truth should a nutso happen to espouse it. When you do this, you're allowing fringe nutso's to control your world view. That can't be a good look.
    This would only make sense if I automatically believed the exact opposite of whatever a nutso was saying. I don't. I withold jugdment until there's more evidence, and at least some of it is credible, and even then I'm never 100% convinced.
  37. #3787
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    I don't think there is such a thing as a 'believe every victim' meme. If there were,anyone could accuse you of anything and you'd go straight to jail to await a trial. I think what's happened is it's become apparent that simply dismissing victims' reports when it suits your needs doesn't work anyone.

    Most people who report crimes are being honest. It's newsworthy when someone makes a false report. So there's a certain rationale for leaning towards believing people who claim to be victims. This is much better than the alternative of not believing anyone when it doesn't suit your needs.
    My point is that when you swing in the direction of giving more credence to accusers it's not without costs. I am not even saying that we've over corrected. The status quo did seem to be intolerable, and I'm not sure where the balance point is. When being a "survivor" is accompanied by social credits, you will incentivize people to both fabricate assaults and stretch the definition of assault.

    The paradox is that the more you incentivize false victimhood, the more fake victims you get, the more skeptical people will be of all victims.
  38. #3788
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    This story wasn't even seriously picked up until the story was about the possibility that it was faked. This was only made into big national news by social media. To claim that "the left" tried to play this up is extremely disingenuous.
    It was in my newsfeed.
  39. #3789
    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post

    The paradox is that the more you incentivize false victimhood, the more fake victims you get, the more skeptical people will be of all victims.
    I agree there's scope for unscrupulous people to abuse others' trust, and that there's always going to be a balancing act between accepting some number of false positives and wrongly rejecting some number of true positives.

    The correct approach to evaluating any claim should be evidence based. Using sexual assault as an example, I think a bigger problem is that when the evidence is not sufficient to convict an alleged perpetrator, the assumption is often that the victim must have been lying. And, because it's so hard to get convictions on SA cases (it's usually a he-said she-said type of thing), it discourages victims from coming forward.

    Using Blasey-Ford as an example, she gave by all professional accounts a much more credible testimony than Kavanaugh did, but not a court in the world would have ever convicted him of sexual assault on the basis of her 30 year old memories (nor should they imo). Even the senate couldn't find sufficient reason to bounce him although i suspect privately most of them probably believed her story over his. This leads to the problem I mentioned in that now she is open to being called a liar and a shill for the Ds, and had to go through not only the embarrassment of the hearing itself, but had to change her job and move address because of the notoriety she gained through something she really should be getting a courage badge for.

    The whole metoo thing is a net positive for society because it removes some of the stigma from the real survivors, although I agree it does have the negative side effect of encouraging shitty types of people to just make things up to get some kind of revenge or fame or whatever.
  40. #3790
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    And I think you should until someone credible confirms the story.

    I wouldn't listen to some radical SJW lefty website either, if that helps.




    This would only make sense if I automatically believed the exact opposite of whatever a nutso was saying. I don't. I withold jugdment until there's more evidence, and at least some of it is credible, and even then I'm never 100% convinced.
    Fair enough. I don't read T_D and I was seeing stories about the alleged assault, and then the possibility it was faked, and then today his arrest over the past few weeks from the AP. Maybe you just weren't seeing these stories in credible outlets, but they were there.
  41. #3791
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar
    What percentage of british muslim women even wear hijabs?
    Based on my observations, very high. The burka is not so common, but I wouldn't call it rare.

    So you make these claim based on your personal believes, and you think political action should be taken based on your feelings. If this sounds harsh, please correct me.
    The oppression of women is not a feeling. And if I were actually in charge of policy, I'd be citing just facts, not feelings.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  42. #3792
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Based on my observations, very high. The burka is not so common, but I wouldn't call it rare.
    Define 'observation'. If by this, you mean 'whenever I spot a hijab I know it's a muslim', that's not really scientific. How do you identify a muslim who's not wearing a hijab?

    Maybe it's different for me being in a university setting, but most students I would suspect are muslim based on their names aren't wearing hijabs, in fact it's rare. And I don't think I've ever had a muslim student going full ninja (burka), although I did have one wearing the semi-ninja (everything covered but the face).
  43. #3793
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    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    It was in my newsfeed.
    What site? Can you find it? What credible news source reported on this as anything other than "actor claims." Every single pro-trump outlet is presenting this as if it was a major story. Maybe you can show me otherwise. I really don't think it was a major story at all up until claims surfaced that he faked it.
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  44. #3794
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    https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald/...d_the_tens_of/

    According to T_D, Kamala Harris orchestrated this and is currently killing off the people who know, and the police is destroying evidence of this left-wing hoax. I'm not gonna fact check that, boost. If it turns out they're right on that too, then, I'm just gonna... buy a balloon and see where the winds take me. I honestly still can't believe the part that actually what happened. Who the fuck stages an attack with no witnesses? Who hires the blackest nigerians to impersonate Trump supporters? How fucking retarded are you? To get more money? Why would that get him more money! What the fuck is going on!
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  45. #3795
    Maybe it's different for me being in a university setting, but most students I would suspect are muslim based on their names aren't wearing hijabs, in fact it's rare.
    I'm going to say yes, it's because you're in a university setting. Any female Muslim at a university with white male British folk is part of a tolerant family seeking to truly integrate. I wish I could say that was a reflection of Islamic immigration in general. But it's not.

    Try going to the suburbs of Birmingham. Whenever I have to get the bus through certain parts, it is clear that many Islamic immigrants have no intention of integrating. ALL of the women you can see are wearing at least a hijab, and we are talking about a district where there are very few, if any, white people living. The schools in these regions are Islamic schools, then banks are Islamic, the shops are Islamic. This would be fine if it were unique. There's regions of Spain where it's full of English people, who speak exclusively English and eat fish and chips. The Spanish don't really like these guys, can't say I blame them. Fortunately for Spain, it's not widespread. If it were, then the English would be more disliked. And we're not even batshit religious nutjobs, we share a lot in common with the Spanish, even if we speak different languages.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  46. #3796
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    Sounds scary. What tangible problems does this cause?
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  47. #3797
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    Sounds scary. What tangible problems does this cause?
    That's what I was wondering.

    Are you getting raped on the bus Ong?
  48. #3798
    Damn though, come to think of it I know what you mean. There's a place in London called Southall that is basically 99% Indians. They have indian shops, indian clothes, I mean it's like they want to keep their culture or something. Then there's another place called Edgware that is full of Arabs. They wear arab clothes, smoke the hookah, have arab restaurants. There's also Jamacian neighbourhoods, Polish neighbourhoods, Bengali, etc., but I'm too scared to go there. Mostly I just go and sit in a park in Wimbledon hoping I don't have to mix with other races.
  49. #3799
    Quote Originally Posted by poop
    Mostly I just go and sit in a park in Wimbledon hoping I don't have to mix with other races.
    The old "Islam is a race" card. Nice work.

    Islam is not a race, it is not a country. It is a religion that is incompatible with the Western way of life.

    I would not say the same about Indians (non-Islamic), Jamaicans, Polish or any other source of mass immigration.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  50. #3800
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    Sounds scary. What tangible problems does this cause?
    Here's a thought experiment for you.

    Consider a nation that has 1% Islamic population.
    Ten years later it's 5%.
    Another ten years later it's 10%.

    Do you anticipate future problems? Be honest now.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  51. #3801
    Here's another thought experiment.

    Imagine two million Satanists want to come to [your country].

    Are you a racist if you say "fuck that shit"?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  52. #3802
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    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    Go on T_D for a second and then tell me that I should have given credence to a story that these two guys were hired to impersonate Trump supporters:


    This fucking retard... This is the single best thing that has happened to Trump, possibly since he got into office. Certainly this year. Nobody knows the name Christopher Hasson. Everybody knows about Jessie Smollett now. You're not going to have a conversation with a trump supporter for the rest of time where they don't bring up the Jessie Smollett thing.

    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/...15818512941057
    Agreed. What a fucking idiot.
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    Cogito ergo sum

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  53. #3803
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I don't think I've ever seen an Islamic woman driving.
    My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...


    Cogito ergo sum

    VHS is like a book? and a book is like a stack of kindles.
    Hey, I'm in a movie!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYdwe3ArFWA
  54. #3804
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Mexico is a non-Islamic country and is right next to America.
    Don't tell that to DJT, as apparently there are a whole ton of muslims going into the USA via the Mexican Border, necessitating Jon Snow and the Watch. Oh, and a Wall.
    My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...


    Cogito ergo sum

    VHS is like a book? and a book is like a stack of kindles.
    Hey, I'm in a movie!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYdwe3ArFWA
  55. #3805
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald/...d_the_tens_of/

    According to T_D, Kamala Harris orchestrated this and is currently killing off the people who know, and the police is destroying evidence of this left-wing hoax. I'm not gonna fact check that, boost. If it turns out they're right on that too, then, I'm just gonna... buy a balloon and see where the winds take me. I honestly still can't believe the part that actually what happened. Who the fuck stages an attack with no witnesses? Who hires the blackest nigerians to impersonate Trump supporters? How fucking retarded are you? To get more money? Why would that get him more money! What the fuck is going on!
    You're strawmanning me again...

    A lot of what is said on T_D is wrong, but just because it's on T_D doesn't make it wrong.

    This was covered nationally, but obviously it's a bigger deal now that it's shown to be a hoax. Just google Smollet and put a time range Jan 29-Feb 5 to see articles from the first week. I'm not sure how to figure out how prominent these articles were, but the supposed attack was certainly national news.
  56. #3806
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    LOL he paid them off with a check

    A. Check.

    LOLOLOL

    My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...


    Cogito ergo sum

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  57. #3807
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Here's a thought experiment for you.

    Consider a nation that has 1% Islamic population.
    Ten years later it's 5%.
    Another ten years later it's 10%.

    Do you anticipate future problems? Be honest now.
    There were 1m Muslims in the UK in 1991, making up 1.8% of the population
    There were 3m in 2011, making up 5%.

    If this continues, they'll get to 10% by ~2040.

    So what problems do you anticipate in 2040?
  58. #3808
    Poop assumes non-Muslims are having babies at the same rate as Muslims.

    spoiler - they're not.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  59. #3809
    Best case scenario for me is that science wins. All these Muslim babies coming into the world will abandon Islam because it's fucking dumb to believe in it when we've proven the universe is infinite in time, both before and after the present. Not really much room for Allah there. Or the Christian God, for that matter.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  60. #3810
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Best case scenario for me is that science wins. All these Muslim babies coming into the world will abandon Islam because it's fucking dumb to believe in it when we've proven the universe is infinite in time, both before and after the present. Not really much room for Allah there. Or the Christian God, for that matter.

    So nothing to worry about then.

    So you haven't really answered my question. Assuming they go Malthusian and are 10% of the population by 2030, what problems do you anticipate?
  61. #3811
    Sharia law by 2050.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  62. #3812
    Or a civil war before that happens.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  63. #3813
    Can I ask you a serious question?

    Do you think Islam is an oppressive religion? I'm genuinely curious why you don't have a problem with the Islamic population increasing at a higher rate than non-Islamic.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  64. #3814
    Is it fear of being called a racist? Is that worse than the Islamification of the country you live in?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  65. #3815
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Can I ask you a serious question?

    Do you think Islam is an oppressive religion? I'm genuinely curious why you don't have a problem with the Islamic population increasing at a higher rate than non-Islamic.
    Hard-core islam is a problem, sure. But, I don't believe that freaking out over a current 5% Muslim population, only about 40% of which support 'aspects' of Sharia Law, is warranted.

    https://www.secularism.org.uk/news/2...-of-sharia-law

    You can't just add up the number of people who identify as muslim, see that it's growing over time, then project a Malthusian takeover of the population in 30 years and start panicking about Sharia Law as in the moment we become > 50% Muslim they'll enact it. I mean, you can, but it's not rational.

    First, you don't know that population trends will continue, or that as you seem to suggest, reflect proportion of Muslims changing at an exponential rate (and if so, that they will continue to do so). Second, even if the population eventually became 100% Muslim (which might take 250 years, but w/e), they'd still only have ~40% support for Sharia Law (assuming things stay the same).

    So the Sharia Law freakout argument is obviously bogus. You clearly have some other reason for not wanting them here. Maybe because you're not comfortable around them for whatever reason. But don't try to argue stuff is going to happen that isn't.
  66. #3816
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    ... a current 5% Muslim population, only about 40% of which support 'aspects' of Sharia Law...

    To elaborate on this, Sharia Law comes in various forms with various interpretations, and is only meant to apply to Muslims. It's not about forcing people to join the religion, or live under it's laws. Rather, it requires its followers to obey the laws of the land.

    Sharia addresses both personal and communal aspects of life. For the most part, Sharia is concerned with personal religious observances such as prayer and fasting.

    Sharia can be divided into two broad areas:

    Guidance in religious worship (ibadat), which is the central focus of Islam.
    Guidance in worldly matters (mu’amalat) such as visiting the sick, taking care of our parents, marriage, inheritance, investments and business affairs, etc.

    It can be further divided into three more specific areas, some of which apply to American Muslims and some of which do not:

    Religious worship and ritual: American Muslims practice their acts of worship (prayer, fasting, pilgrimage, etc.) or rituals in the same manner as people of other faiths.
    Private social interactions (marriage, business, etc.): All religions have rules for marriage and ethical economics. These are private and voluntary, so American Muslims follow Islamic standards for these within the limits of American secular law. For example, civil law prohibits having more than one wife, so American Muslims must abide by this law (since Sharia recommends monogamy, this isn’t a problem). There are other aspects of marriage laws such as the mahr (gift from the husband to the wife) or the religious marriage contract which Muslims do observe. Since the Constitution allows such practices for all religions, it is also acceptable to practice this aspect of Sharia in America.
    Public law issues (criminal law, war and peace, etc.): These have no application in the U.S. Islamic scholars formulated rules in this area for Muslim-majority societies in other historical situations. But Sharia requires Muslims to obey “the law of the land” of the country they live in. The “law of the land” in the U.S. is the Constitution. Sharia requires American Muslims to support and follow the Constitution in all matters related to public law. Most aspects of Sharia are not meant to be government-enforced, because Sharia is largely a matter of conscience.
  67. #3817
    First, you don't know that population trends will continue, or that as you seem to suggest, reflect proportion of Muslims changing at an exponential rate (and if so, that they will continue to do so). Second, even if the population eventually became 100% Muslim (which might take 250 years, but w/e), they'd still only have ~40% support for Sharia Law (assuming things stay the same).
    With all due respect, what utter bollocks.

    Islamic families have like twice as many children as non-Islamic. Yes I pulled that number out of my arse, but it's probably about right. That isn't going to change, white families don't tend to have the desire to have six children. So their population will continue to grow.

    Also, if Sharia law doesn't happen even if we hit 100%, then how do you explain Sharia Law in Islamic countries? I can only assume the Islamic population is approximately 250% of the overall population.

    So the Sharia Law freakout argument is obviously bogus.
    If by "obviously", you mean "in my naive opinion", then you're bang on here.

    You clearly have some other reason for not wanting them here.
    Incorrect assumption. I haven't got a problem with Buddhists, Hindus and Sikhs.

    Maybe because you're not comfortable around them for whatever reason.
    There's an Islamic girl, hijab included, who sells the Big Issue outside Oxfam. I make her tea and make conversation with her. She's nice. So that shows what you know.

    But don't try to argue stuff is going to happen that isn't.
    You hope. I hope I'm wrong too.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  68. #3818
    To elaborate on this, Sharia Law comes in various forms with various interpretations, and is only meant to apply to Muslims. It's not about forcing people to join the religion, or live under it's laws. Rather, it requires its followers to obey the laws of the land.
    So you think you can go to Pakistan with your wife and behave like British people? Watch out for stones if your wife is showing her bare ankles.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  69. #3819
    fwiw, I would be in favour of a policy that allows Islamic women fleeing oppression to settle here. It's the men who can fuck off. Unless, that is, they are willing to abandon their religion.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  70. #3820
    I guess that makes me sexist, not racist (even if I accept hating on a religion is "racism", which it isn't).
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  71. #3821
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    fwiw, I would be in favour of a policy that allows Islamic women fleeing oppression to settle here.
    Disclaimer - except bitches who join ISIS then want to return to the UK when they realise ISIS doesn't have child benefits.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  72. #3822
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    I don't want to get into hypotheticals. My overarching point is that policy decisions that affect a whole demographic of people should be made based on facts and not fantasies.

    You say: muslims have twice the fertility rate (they don't) which can be projected and will definitely remain unchanging for the next 30 years (based on what model?) and that these muslims will then overthrow the government and change the law (fantasy). People had the same fear in the 90's. Actual population growth of muslims in europe between 1990 and 2010: from 4% to HOLD ON TO YOUR HORSES 6% - projected to reach 10% by 2050.
    Last edited by oskar; 02-22-2019 at 01:35 PM.
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  73. #3823
    oskar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    You're strawmanning me again...

    A lot of what is said on T_D is wrong, but just because it's on T_D doesn't make it wrong.

    This was covered nationally, but obviously it's a bigger deal now that it's shown to be a hoax. Just google Smollet and put a time range Jan 29-Feb 5 to see articles from the first week. I'm not sure how to figure out how prominent these articles were, but the supposed attack was certainly national news.
    This is how TYT - is there anything left of TYT? Anyway, this is how TYT covered it:

    https://youtu.be/pSwainMCdZ8?t=73

    Based on the comments it looks like this is currently being viewed exclusively by Trump supporters using this as a gotcha, when it's comical how often they say that none of the facts are in.
    Last edited by oskar; 02-22-2019 at 01:46 PM.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  74. #3824
    and that these muslims will then overthrow the government and change the law (fantasy).
    Overthrow? Is that what happens when Labour replaces the Tories? I'm concerned that an Islamic party of the future will get voted in, I'm not concerned about a coup d'état.

    My overarching point is that policy decisions that affect a whole demographic of people should be made based on facts and not fantasies.
    Immigration affects an entire demographic... the citizens. That's a fact. Why doesn't this demographic matter? Why is a smaller foreign demographic more important than the large demographic of people who already live in a nation? Immigration affects schools, hospitals, every aspect of life. That's fine if the immigrants are paying tax. Now the sweet girl outside Oxfam, she's not paying tax, otherwise she wouldn't be selling the Big Issue (a magazine that used to be sold by homeless people but is now sold by immigrants). She's also heavily pregnant. I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's highly likely that the taxpayer will be paying for that child's birth, education, vaccines, food, accommodation etc. That impacts on every single working person in this country. Imagine if I went to live elsewhere and absorbed social services without paying my way.

    You say: muslims have twice the fertility rate (they don't)
    Global increase in Muslim population is 1.9% per year, compared to 1.1% for non-Muslims, according to a crude google search. So you're splitting hairs.

    ...which can be projected and will definitely remain unchanging for the next 30 years (based on what model?
    Can you give me an explanation to why you think it won't continue at a similar rate in the near future?

    Actual population growth of muslims in europe between 1990 and 2010: from 4% to HOLD ON TO YOUR HORSES 6% - projected to reach 10% by 2050.
    I found this statistic while googling, but I also found conflicting articles that suggest it'll be 10% by 2030. I guess you accept whichever article you prefer.

    Here's what wikipedia says...

    According to the Pew Research Center, the Muslim population in Europe (excluding Turkey) was about 30 million in 1990, 44 million in 2010 and is expected to increase to 58 million by 2030;
    Let's assume this is factual. It will basically have doubled in 40 years, and I refer you to the fertility rate of Islamic women. I anticipate continued growth relative to non-Muslims.

    Wikipedia also says this...

    While the birth rate for Muslims in Europe is expected to decline over the next two decades...
    I don't know how anyone can determine this. Why would it decline? Especially in a country with generous child benefits. So long as Islamic immigration continues, Islamic population will continue to increase relative to non-Islam.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  75. #3825
    If we were talking about Satanists instead of Muslims, this wouldn't even be a discussion. It's almost as though we're being forced to accept an oppressive religion that does not comply with our values. Imagine if we were forced to accept Satanism on the basis of equality.


    I mean, so long as people aren't sacrificing goats, people can be Satanist, right? Who are we to say they can't be?


    Of course, Satanists don't make up a quarter of the global population. If they did, well then we'd have to respect it, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong

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