*** OFFICIAL BREXIT SUNLIT UPLANDS and #MEGA THREAD ***

[OngBonga]

Racism doesn't necessarily involve hate.

I never suggested it did. I said hate was one of three primary aspects of racism, the others being discrimination and superiority. You can find synonyms of these words if you prefer, like antagonism, prejudice, whatever. But I absolutely agree that racism doesn't necessarily involve hatred.

And I provided an example. Dumbing down your language because you think black people are less intelligent than you would be an act of racism not motivated by hatred, but instead motivated by a debunked stereotype. That would be ignorance.

For example: in the US, white people touching black people's hair without permission is a cultural problem.

I don't understand what this has to do with racism, other than you providing the specific example of white people touching black peoples' hair. What if a black person touches a black person's hair? What if a black person touches a white person's hair?

If you're saying that it's a much more common occurrence for white people to touch black peoples' hair then ok there might be a racism problem playing a role in the statistics. But this is the first I'm hearing of such a problem.

btw, I've recently had my hair touched without permission. I was in France dancing to music and someone behind me flicked my hair that was tied back. It happened twice. I ignored it completely and carried on dancing, but it was obvious to me that whoever did it was taking the piss out of me tying my hair back into a bun rather than a pony tail. It wasn't friendly. Other than mildly insulting me, it didn't bother me at all. In a crowd of thousands of people, there are going to be a few wankers. I'm not going to be one of them by turning around and making a big deal out of it.

Any person reaching out to touch anyone's body without their permission is in the wrong.

This is absolutely not in dispute.

I have not heard stories of black people spontaneously touching a white person's hair.

I've no idea what race my hair toucher was for the simple reason I didn't care to turn around and look at who it was. Chances are it was a white man, but I don't know that. If it was a black person, it's still not something I would consider racism.

I don't hear stories about hair touching in any context.

[CoccoBill]

I don't understand what this has to do with racism, other than you providing the specific example of white people touching black peoples' hair.

I'll try to elaborate. Imagine that you're a person whose cultural history is filled with atrocities by blue people. They've invaded your lands, enslaved you, treated you like animals for centuries. Then an old blue lady comes and starts playing with your hair like you're a toddler. "Aren't you a cute little thing". Now, this one instance in a vacuum doesn't sound too bad, you might even shrug it off with a chuckle. Now imagine this happens to you every fucking week all your life, always by blue people. The blue person most likely doesn't mean anything bad, but with the context and the history, I might very well lose my shit at some point, at least I wouldn't blame if someone in that situation did.

What if a black person touches a black person's hair? What if a black person touches a white person's hair?

It would be 100% the same thing, except for the context and history. Do blacks have a history of oppression over black people? Yes they do, so if you're Hutu, you better think twice before doing that to a Tutsi. Do blacks have a history of oppression over white people? Not that I know of really, so I would think it's less of a problem, apart from the fairly general rule that that's just not a thing you do to other people without consent.

[MadMojoMonkey]

I never suggested it did. I said hate was one of three primary aspects of racism, the others being discrimination and superiority. You can find synonyms of these words if you prefer, like antagonism, prejudice, whatever. But I absolutely agree that racism doesn't necessarily involve hatred.

And I provided an example. Dumbing down your language because you think black people are less intelligent than you would be an act of racism not motivated by hatred, but instead motivated by a debunked stereotype. That would be ignorance.

Oh, my bad. I thought that's what you were saying.

I apologize for pressing the point when it was my misunderstanding.

As for the hair touching, I did stipulate this is a thing in the US. IDK what racial relations are like in the UK at all, so I can only really speak to my experiences in the US. The first I heard of the hair-touching thing I was like... eww gross, WTF. And I assumed it was kinda a 1-off thing. But then I heard the story again from a different black woman and I asked about it. It's a thing. White people touching black people's hair - especially women, but not necessarily - is a thing that happens in the US. And it's fucked up. And it's a white person who most likely just wants to learn about black hair and what it feels like, but the impulse that they don't even need to ask permission first is fucked up. Really fucked up.

Take in the history and culture of black women in the US and their hairstyles - some women regularly spend 1/4 or more of their net income on their hair - and it's even more fucked up. In the US, hairstyles are a huge part of black culture and specifically black women's culture. They probably wouldn't give permission to anyone to touch their hair, even their partners and family. Let alone some club-fisted stranger.

[OngBonga]

@mojo

I really don't know if hair touching is a problem in the UK. I have to admit I live in a bubble, I'm reclusive and isolated in the countryside instead of the social animal in a busy town that I was 20 years ago. But it's not something I ever understood to be a problem, and certainly not in a racist context. We all know from a young age that it's socially unacceptable. I mean, I can vaguely remember at school an instance of a girl with an afro getting upset because a boy wanted to feel her "fuzzy hair", but this is children being children. It's obviously not acceptable and the teachers had to sit everyone down to make sure we all knew we can't do that. I don't think I could go as far as calling that boy "racist" because he was too naive to understand. But in this instance it's certainly something an Afro-Caribbean girl is way more likely to encounter, and so it does need to be dealt with differently. If an adult were to do that, then yes I would say that's racist.

And it's fucked up. And it's a white person who most likely just wants to learn about black hair and what it feels like

This is what I just described, only adults doing it. It's a massive no-no, and everyone should know it. There's no real excuse for this kind of ignorance except maybe autism. It was unacceptable when I was a child in the 1980s. This isn't a modern shift in attitude, like words that we used to use no longer being cool. Hair touching has always been frowned upon, you should know you can't touch peoples' hair. Maybe if you're friends with someone you can ask. Trust is absolutely key here.