*** OFFICIAL BREXIT SUNLIT UPLANDS and #MEGA THREAD ***

[MadMojoMonkey]

Regardless of international law - who's going to enforce international law against the US?


It's similar for Russia, India, and China and probably a few others. If they decide to go against international agreement, the scale of war that would result if the world chose to oppose them with military would be catastrophic.

This is why the US got away with invading Iraq, and it's why Russia is getting away with invading Ukraine (if that's what it's doing... I haven't heard much about it in a while).


There's sovereignty in scale. Which is a curious thing about your argument. On some level - if the EU forms an army, then they gain the sovereignty of being able to threaten global war if they are opposed militarily. That buys them the freedom to disregard international laws when it suits them to take the other sanctions as hits... if there are any.

[OngBonga]

Yes that's about as deep as the argument seems to go - we want to make all our own laws.

Yes. That's what sovereignty is. Those who are democratically elected make the laws, not outsiders.

The question is whether that principle alone has a greater value than the benefit of being part of the world's largest trading bloc.

Again, you're putting economics above sovereignty. This is where we differ in opinion greatly. You're in the "economics at any cost" camp. I'm in the "sovereignty at any cost" camp.

But, neither you nor any other Brexiter can explain how your or my or any of our countrymen's lives are going to be better

That's because this isn't what it's about. Our lives might be better because we have more economic freedom, or they might be worse because we fail to take advantage of our economic freedom. It's irrelevant. I voted to reject excessive outside interference in our affairs.


Some people will certainly benefit, while others will lose out. That's the reality of an economic shock on this scale. I really don't know if in ten years time the average person will be better off or worse off. That depends on what happens in the next ten years, not what has happened in the last five.


This isn't about MEGA. That's a cute little catchphrase that you've coined to belittle Brexiteers. We're used to it. I'm impressed you haven't called me gammon yet.


Try MESA instead. I don't want us to be "great", I want us to be "sovereign". It's not like we want a return to the empire days. Well, some might, but I certainly don't. I want a much more restrained foreign policy, instead of us being a nuclear state with a big mouth. I also want us to be in control of our own laws and our own economy. That isn't MEGA, that's just us being a normal country like pretty much everyone outside of Europe.

[Poopadoop]

Some people will certainly benefit, while others will lose out. That's the reality of an economic shock on this scale. I really don't know if in ten years time the average person will be better off or worse off. That depends on what happens in the next ten years, not what has happened in the last five.

Weak. Of course "some" will benefit. Most will lose. The country will be worse off overall. Drink all the "MESA" koolaid you want, it's not going to a good thing for us.

[OngBonga]

Weak. Of course "some" will benefit. Most will lose. The country will be worse off overall.

This is your opinion. This is not a fact.

[Poopadoop]

This is your opinion. This is not a fact YET.

fyp.

It's in all the forecasts. It's pretty basic economics that when you impair your own trade, you lose out.

[OngBonga]

fyp.

It's in all the forecasts. It's pretty basic economics that when you impair your own trade, you lose out.

Yeah, "impair". We now have greater economic freedom. I'd call that the opposite of "impaired".

[Poopadoop]

Yeah, "impair". We now have greater economic freedom. I'd call that the opposite of "impaired".

Sadly, you don't magically just get a better deals by negotiating independently from a weaker position.

[Poopadoop]

On some level - if the EU forms an army, then they gain the sovereignty of being able to threaten global war if they are opposed militarily. That buys them the freedom to disregard international laws when it suits them to take the other sanctions as hits... if there are any.

The EU Army is mostly about standardizing equipment and the like, which brings a lot of savings. If all 27 countries are using the same rifles and ammunition, it's a lot cheaper to supply them than if they're using 27 different rifles with 27 different bullets, and 27 different tanks and 27 different jet fighters, etc. etc. When you add it all up, it's a lot of money that could be saved, like billions of $$$.

Despite what fiction Ong might have heard on the internet, its' not like every member country hands their army over to the EU Warlord Council which decides who to attack with it. Each country woud still control its own forces, though obviously they'd rely on each other for supply - e.g., if the tanks were all made in Germany and the planes were all made in France, it'd be pretty hard for one to attach the other. But, it'd be a lot easier for them to both finance their defense budgets.

[OngBonga]

There's no international law that says a country has to let a part of it secede.

I'm not sure about this, and I doubt you are either. International law is complicated and routinely ignored.

I'll think you'll find if the UK doesn't at least start making noises towards rejoining the EU in the next five years, there will be another Scottish referendum with a different outcome, and possible a N. Irish one too. Then we'll see how the UK responds. Most countries are not keen to see parts of themselves break away.

Are you forgetting we already allowed Scotland to vote on this matter? The UK doesn't want it, but the UK might not be able to stop it.

[Poopadoop]

I'm not sure about this, and I doubt you are either. International law is complicated and routinely ignored.

There's no law that tells a country how to deal with its own separatist movements. If there were we'd have heard about it being quoted by separatists. FFS, read a book.

[OngBonga]

There's no law that tells a country how to deal with its own separatist movements. If there were we'd have heard about it being quoted by separatists. FFS, read a book.

I don't think you know what "nation" means. Go read a wikipedia page.

This isn't about "separatists", it's about "nations". I can be a separatist. I can't create my own nation though.

[Poopadoop]

I don't think you know what "nation" means. Go read a wikipedia page.

This isn't about "separatists", it's about "nations". I can be a separatist. I can't create my own nation though.

Sorry for not using language you can understand; I was referring to separatist movements led by "nations within other nations".

[OngBonga]

Sorry for not using language you can understand; I was referring to separatist movements led by "nations within other nations".

Nations within nations.

Yeah you don't know what "nation" means in the context of this conversation. You are using the word as a synonym for "country".

[Poopadoop]

Nations within nations.

Yeah you don't know what "nation" means in the context of this conversation. You are using the word as a synonym for "country".

Right. So now you're just reductio ad onging me about semantics here. Which shows you have no valid arguments left to make and are just trying to piss on my leg.

[OngBonga]

Did you not see the word "another" in my post?

You're implying we won't let them leave if they choose to. We've already proven that we will.

Is Quebec a nation? I don't think so.

[OngBonga]

Quebec might be a nation. I really don't know. Has Quebec ever been independent? That's kind of key. They likely tick the other boxes.

[Poopadoop]

Are you forgetting we already allowed Scotland to vote on this matter?

Did you not see the word "another" in my post?

The UK doesn't want it, but the UK might not be able to stop it.

Quebec had two separate referendums to gain it's independence from Canada. The first one the PM told them even if the separatists win, you're not going anywhere. So yeah, the UK could stop it if they want to; though it'd be pretty hypocritical after they just did the same thing to the EU, so I doubt they would.

[OngBonga]

My God, poop actually wants to have a continent-size army so we can all have the same guns.

Fuck me.