Making some sort of self-sustaining living from live poker

[RiveredAgain]

Hi all, I have been an occasional reader of this poker site as we as others and was planning to try to develop a bank roll and build towards something that would allow me to make a good, steady income from online poker. But then the ban in the USA occured. Now, I find that layoffs are coming to my company, and I am likely going to be one of those affected. I'm needing some advice and ideas that perhaps I haven't considered, to help get me through this tough period. I'm worrying and stressing alot lately.

I have a mortgage (bought a house less than 2 yrs ago), student loans, and your typical monthly bills, plus food and gas expenses and what not. I let a relative stay with me and that relative covers a gas, electric, phone. So I would say I need about $2k a month to cover everything on my end.

In this current economic climate, it is hard to find another job. I'm a computer technician, and even temp agencies are telling me that most of their opportunities right now are more developer and engineer positions.

My company provides a fairly decent severance package... about 4 months pay, $5k "severance bonus", 18 months COBRA. In total, I may get about $22k cash payout + the non-cash portions that include COBRA and what not. I hear that there's a supplemental tax for lump sum payouts of severance pay, so I might be looking at quite a hefty tax hit and my final in-pocket cash payout might be more like $13k.

I have about $10k in savings, and calculated my after tax payout for vacation and personal time saved up at about $5000, and maybe another $5k for 401K, and ~$2500 in stocks.

All in all, I am looking at about ~$32k (give or take $2k) in cash if i were to cash everything out. I know it's not good to cash out my 401K due to the tax and early withdrawal penalty.

I think I can live without working for about 1 year off of ~ $24K post-tax, based on the expenses I listed earlier. That would mean I would have burned through my 401K & Stock money, plus all cash payouts from the severance, leaving me with most of my $10K savings that I currently have. I might be able to file for economic hardship forebearance on my student loans, so I can put off making ~$400/mo payments for a while, but I'd probably only be able to do that for a year and in the meantime interest compounds.

I only have a liberal arts bachelor's degree, and have been wanting to go back either for a second bachelor's or a master's degree in either a field of personal interest or one where I can likely make a comfortable living upon graduation. The degree I currently have certainly doesn't give me either.

But going back to school full-time, I'd still need at least 2 years to complete a master's degree. This means that I'd only have enough savings to let me live as a full-time student for 1 year. There is student financial aid, but I'm not sure how much I'd qualify for given that I make over $55K/yr in my job, which includes bonuses. So I don't know if I'd end up having to fork out more money for books and tuition in order to pursue an advanced degree, or if my going through layoff will qualify me for maximum student financial aid.
Maybe if I am laid off around end of this year, and apply for student financial aid at the start of next year, that would allow me to report that I'm unemployed and making no income in 2012, thereby qualifying me fo rmaximum student financial aid?

Taking out more student loans isn't really desirable to me. I already owe $30k. Not unless the advance degree I'd be able to earn in 2 years would put me in great position to get into a job that would allow me to pay off my student loan debts reasonably quickly with low impact on my finances.

This brings me to live poker, and my main question for you guys... since online poker is not possible anytime soon... Is it possible for someone with a beginner's knowledge of poker (mainly from online and reading about strategy a bit in books and on this forum) to be able to make a steady amount playing live poker at the local casinos to help supplement income or even help pay for the bulk of my expenses, anticipated to be about $2k/mo, if I focus, study and really work on my game? Is it possible if I were to devote 40hrs a week to it, and off-time to applying for a new job? What kind of a bankroll would I need? - I wouldn't have a built-up bankroll to gamble with, but instead would be drawing from my life savings and my only money to live off of while unemployed for who knows how long...

I will likely not qualify for unemployment anymore due to my specific situation, so that is not likely going to be a source of income.

If you guys have any advice/suggestions/fresh ideas that perhaps I haven't considered, that'd be greatly appreciated - whether it's to steer me away from the path of trying to make a sustaining living from live poker, encourage me and tell me it's very possible, or whether it's to provide tips on where to look for new jobs that can pay enough to cover my total living expenses, or tips on going back to school/student financial aid, I'd greatly appreciate hearing from you.

Thanks for reading and responding.

[!Luck]

Not a level?

Why not calculate unemployment in the above? Also, you can work at costco, walmart, AND play poker. Otherwise you just setting yourself up to fail.

!luck

[BankItDrew]

If I started playing 200nl live as a career, I'd want a $10k bankroll and I'd put in 50+hrs/week.

[OngBonga]

If I had a $10k bankroll, I'd have a $5k bankroll and a very good time.

[Monty3038]

Alright, let's discuss the job thing first. Congrats on getting a tech job with a liberal arts degree. If you like the field and want to continue in it, post poker life or whatever, you need some computer based certs and potentially degrees. I'd suggest looking into financial aid next year when you can claim to be a displaced worker (fill out the 2011/2012 FAFSA) and then apply for assistance. Making 82k a year with my wife unemployed I still qualified for full ride assistance for a masters program, just started. That included enough to cover room and board as well.

That aside, I agree with !Luck that you need a job. The job covers your living expenses. at least mortgage. There are jobs out there, maybe not in your chosen field, and probably making shit money to start, but get one. Even if part time. Then you can investigate the poker thing.

My biggest concern would be skill set. I know I am only a casual online and casual live player, but without the right skills and mindset, you won't last. You'll burn through the money and be in even worse shape.

It's a tough call... but if you think you have the skills and mindset for it, the dire circumstance will make 'failure not an option' and may provide you the drive.

Either way... good luck.

[bikes]

lol live. dont be a live pro unless your playing 2/5/10 or 5/10+

your hourly just wont be high enough also, playing 60-70 hours a week during the 'best parts of the week' is really unenjoyable

[BennyLaRue]

Is it possible for someone with a beginner's knowledge of poker (mainly from online and reading about strategy a bit in books and on this forum)

No.

Would you feel you can financially support yourself as a race car driver because you saw parts of some of the Fast and the Furious movies?

Get it out of your mind.

[oskar]

Short answer: NO!

Long answer:
I have managed to sustain myself off online poker for almost three years - the emphasis is on sustain. It's very difficult to balance your bankroll between moving up through stakes and constantly cashing out. The vast majority of people will never even get to the point where they can turn a consistent profit even if they are motivated and reasonably intelligent, because there are lots of other things that factor into it. Read through davens blogs if you want to know how to do it right even when things are not going brilliantly. Hell, read through my old blogs if you want to know how it can all crash and burn :P
Live poker is a whole other animal. I've spent about half a year as a poker/BJ dealer - there is the odd player who can make a living off live poker, but they're all at 2/5+. At 1/2 the rake is absolutely ridiculous, and you need people to literally just throw their money at you just to turn a marginal profit. But the real reason why I would never even consider playing live is that EVERYONE IS MISERABLE. The few people who are actually enjoying themselves are all playing recreationally and/or are taking hard drugs :P.
It's not an envrionment that I would want to be in for any period of time. Even playing at home has its downsides. This sums it up pretty much.

I've heard about private games that are said to be very beatable, but you have to find them first, plus there's always the chance of getting robbed by either the dealers or by having someone stick a gun in your face.

Most of that is irrelevant because the chances of you just walking in and beating the game are very slim to begin with. If you're interested in poker I suggest you wait until the online thing gets resolved for US players, and then learn to play online. There's really nothing that can prepare you for the emotional and monetary swings that come with the game.
Things that are actually not that different from poker that might be worth looking into:
Becoming a reseller. - There are lots of people who are basically just buying stuff off ebay and craigslist and then selling it for more.
Open a small business: Open a restaurant and have monkeys work for you (see other thread) Find a market gap and go for it: some oddball stuff like electronic cigarettes or psychoactive incense.

Find out if you're any good at strategy games to begin with by playing SC2. Learning to beat poker for a living should be comparable with reaching 1v1 master league on the ladder.
^^ and it's lots more fun!

My overall suggestion to you is: Go for something with a long term plan. If you play poker for a couple of years and you come out of it there's really not much to transition into. When you have spent a couple of years selling psychoactive incense in your opium den with the help of a dozen monkey workers then the world is your oyster.

[BooG690]

What they said: making a living off $1/$2 is virtually impossible. Also, all live poker players are degens that make you doubt society.

[rong]

Where as the online variety are a credit to society.

[bigred]

If I had a $10k bankroll, I'd have a $5k bankroll and a very good time.

Might be the first time I laughed at one of your posts!!!!!

[baudib]

I love live poker, tbh. I find the people you meet to be fascinating and thoroughly enjoyable most of the time.

This is not a level, and is probably more of an indictment of my personal values than of live poker.

[bikes]

All these things being said.

If you're like me and people telling you, that you can't do it burns a fire inside you, it's possible if your very dedicated and persistent and have that drive.

It won't be fun but it is possible. You have to decide though if the 80-100 hour weeks are worth it though. Spending 12 hours a day in a casino/cardroom, freezing your ass off. Fighting off boredom and fatigue, all that jazz. If it's really worth it to you nothing we can say will stop you and if it's really worth it to you then you can succeed.

[kiwiMark]

rather suck dick for money tbh

[bigred]

rather suck dick for money tbh

Coming to Vegas next year?

[kiwiMark]

That depends, have you heard about my range of prepaid service plans?

[bikes]

i am intrigued. do go on.

[RiveredAgain]

Guys, thanks for all of your thoughtful responses. I really appreciate it. A part of me really wanted to consider live poker as a viable option. Perhaps, like some have said, it can be done if you have the drive, determinination and willingness to put up with all that comes with playing in a casino all day ever day, plus the stress factor.

I think I'm going to keep looking for a position as a contractor to continue to develop marketable skill sets, and hopefully that will turn into an actual permanent job offer.
Will also look into getting into my desired master's program and see what kind of financial aid I qualify for.

Thanks again, guys.

P.S.

Does anyone know when online poker might get unbanned in the USA (or at least California)? I miss being able to play online, and the challenge of building a roll and moving up in stakes. It'd be nice to be able to play online again to make a little extra spending money on the side, too.

[givememyleg]

Does anyone know when online poker might get unbanned in the USA (or at least California)? I miss being able to play online, and the challenge of building a roll and moving up in stakes. It'd be nice to be able to play online again to make a little extra spending money on the side, too.

Maybe next month, maybe next year, maybe next decade. Basically don't count on it.

[givememyleg]

Just putting live poker into perspective. Let's say you get in 30 hands per hour, and play 50 hours per week. That's 1,500 hands per week or ~4,500 hands per month or 78,000 hands per year - with no vacation or slacking. Let's say you kill the game for 30 bb/100 (not sure if sustainable but I've hovered around 20ish and I definitely don't kill) that is $46,800 per year (2,600 hours total for $18 hourly rate). Not to mention we know that not all things go our way, especially during periods of thousands and even tens of thousands of hands. Live poker can make even the greatest poker players go criminally insane. If you think a downswing of 2 weeks in online poker is bad, imagine a span of 3 months, which is only 19,500 hands based on our numbers.

Making a living off of $1-$2 live is possible I guess, but shit I wouldn't want to do it.

It's 7am and I haven't slept, hope my math is right?

edit - math is fun. my new (correct) numbers make it not seem as bad tbh. but let's take a more realistic bb/100 of 15 bb/100. that's $23,400 per year and $9 per hour.

[supa]

That depends, have you heard about my range of prepaid service plans?

Please elaborate.

[BankItDrew]

That's 1,500 hands per week or 4,500 hands per month or 54,000 hands per year.

Let's say you kill the game for 30 bb/100 (not sure if sustainable but I've hovered around 20ish and I definitely don't kill)

Not sustainable.

[givememyleg]

YEAH IT'S EASY TO TALK SHIT ABOUT HUMANS DOING MATH AT 7AM WHEN YOU DONT EVEN GET TIRED AND CANDO CALCULATIOSN IN YOUR HEAD AT MILLIONS THE SPEED OF ME. LETS SEE YOU TRY TO LOVE, BOT.

[Fnord]

Get another job before they fire you.

Poker is a much better hobby than it is a job.

[d0zer]

Poker is a much better hobby than it is a job.

confirmed

[drmcboy]

name one 'job' that isn't a better hobby?

[Monty3038]

name one 'job' that isn't a better hobby?

Restroom Attendant.

Wait, some might actually enjoy that.

Hmm... Port-o-Potty cleaner, septic tank cleaner... etc...

[BankItDrew]

name one 'job' that isn't a better hobby?

I agree. I don't think there is a hobby that exists where it is not preferred over ones occupation.

[bikes]

change your f avatar.

[Micro2Macro]

poker is the best job one could ask for

even if ur a lazy fucking degenerate u can still make monies to support living a frowned upon lifestyle and not get fired for being late every day

[bikes]

poker is the best job one could ask for

even if ur a lazy fucking degenerate u can still make monies to support living a frowned upon lifestyle and not get fired for being late every day

+1000000000000000000000

[givememyleg]

i think most of us would agree, as long as you're not 1 tabling for 8 hours per day breathing in degenerate second hand smoke.

[oskar]

poker is the best job one could ask for

even if ur a lazy fucking degenerate u can still make monies to support living a frowned upon lifestyle and not get fired for being late every day

Meh... We have a surprisingly low number of degenerates on this forum, and even with so many people willing to put in the work, and the disciplin to stick to basic BRM, very few get to the point where they could feasibly make a living exclusively off poker.

[rong]

Meh... We have a surprisingly low number of degenerates on this forum, and even with so many people willing to put in the work, and the disciplin to stick to basic BRM, very few get to the point where they could feasibly make a living exclusively off poker.

Why is that? More lack of effort it more lack of ability?

[drmcboy]

with so many people willing to put in the work

nope

[BankItDrew]

change your f avatar.

To?

[bikes]

lol @ many people willing to put in the work.

[oskar]

Well... whatever constitutes work for them. We sure don't have a lack of people trying, let's put it that way.

[bikes]

no people dont try because they have no idea how to properly try

[jyms]

^^^^ This.


I learned far to late how to learn, I'd like another try

[kiwiMark]

no people dont try because they have no idea how to properly try

point stands that average joe shouldn't be expecting online poker is gonna just magically gel with even as many as 20% of people, though I guess.

[eugmac]

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda

[Fnord]

name one 'job' that isn't a better hobby?

Software Engineering for distributed systems.

You get to work with much bigger toys when you work for a big company and if you're high enough on the food chain you generally get a lot of slack.

[drmcboy]

if you love your job that's great, but it would still be a better hobby. we must define the term differently.

[Jack Sawyer]

Live poker can make even the greatest poker players go criminally insane.

Online poker is capable of the same thing

[bjsaust]

I dunno, I love programming as a job. I think I'd enjoy it equally as a job and a hobby, and as a job I get paid!!

[drmcboy]

living in the world of Fnord's post, you'd still be paid if it was a hobby. Poker is a terrible job if you don't make money doing it.

[drmcboy]

to be clear, OP should of course find a non poker job. You can find time to play outside of it and figure out if you have the chops.

[d0zer]

I liked poker until I made it a job. I liked programming more before it was a job, and yeah jobs can take some of the fun out of things, but my taste for poker changed much more dramatically than it did for programming when it was made a job.

Some people are more cut out for poker as a job than others are, but these seem to be the minority -- very few people seem to make it work for the long haul.

as for OP: It's absurdly irresponsible to make poker your job until you have a long standing track record of winning at a pace you need. Start with it as a hobby.

[bikes]

you went pro at poker under extremely sub optimal conditions. might have be different if you did it in my shoes without wiff and baby screaming in your ear every 5s and whining about this or that

[d0zer]

It wasn't that, the biggest problem was not having a big enough buffer for monthly bills which amplified the stresses of runbad. It's definitely a young man's game though.

[bikes]

It wasn't that, the biggest problem was not having a big enough buffer for monthly bills which amplified the stresses of runbad. It's definitely a young man's game though.

meh, i am 100 pro cent confident that if you had my 'bikes problems' instead of your 'real problems' you would have easily succeeded.

[flomo]

Bunch of panzies.

Fuck the Nay sayers and just do it.

[kiwiMark]

without wiff and baby screaming in your ear every 5s and whining about

not having a big enough buffer for monthly bills

imo

[drmcboy]

sell the baby obv