Life decisions...

[Off5th]

I'm at a point in my life where playing cards full time would make me happy. Thought about this a lot. I want to move to Vegas but the only problem is I don't have a place to stay. Would it be practical staying at a hotel for a month or more till I can find a place? My plan is to grind out the tables 8-10 hours a day and make my money.

[WillburForce]

Sleep under a bridge.

[rong]

lol

[givememyleg]

i think places in vegas have apartment style hotels/vacation homes you can rent on a weekly/monthly basis. probably more comfortable and affordable than a hotel. never stayed in any though, so i have no further help.

[JKDS]

I heard some stories that if you trespass into someone's house, and live there for a few years without hiding but without them kicking you out, then you can claim it as your own.

[givememyleg]

I heard some stories that if you trespass into someone's house, and live there for a few years without hiding but without them kicking you out, then you can claim it as your own.

basically how america started.

[kiwiMark]

mum and dad are in for a surprise

[Renton]

If you want to grind live make sure you have a large bankroll and play at least 2/5. I've heard rent in vegas is super cheap because it is overbuilt, so I'd look at getting an apartment preferably with roommates to cut costs. Another option for short term would be to stay at a shithole like imperial palace, that way you'll cut transportation costs at least and be right on the strip for like 30-40 bucks a day.

All that said, I can glean from the tone of your post (and from the sig quote of aokrongly) that you are almost certainly not ready for this.

[donkbee]

(and from the sig quote of aokrongly)

haha

[Off5th]

If you want to grind live make sure you have a large bankroll and play at least 2/5. I've heard rent in vegas is super cheap because it is overbuilt, so I'd look at getting an apartment preferably with roommates to cut costs. Another option for short term would be to stay at a shithole like imperial palace, that way you'll cut transportation costs at least and be right on the strip for like 30-40 bucks a day.

All that said, I can glean from the tone of your post (and from the sig quote of aokrongly) that you are almost certainly not ready for this.

I was thinking of starting off at 1/2. Why start at 2/5?

[Renton]

I was thinking of starting off at 1/2. Why start at 2/5?

Live 1/2 is a rake-trap. I think most places in vegas do 10% to a 4 dollar cap, sometimes with another dollar for bad beat jackpot. So that means most heads up pots you will be paying 7-10% in rake which is pretty ridiculous. 2/5 will usually have the same 10%/$4 deal but it caps out every hand so its not nearly as much effective rake.

Also, lets say you are a 20 big blind per 100 winner after rake (HIGHLY unlikely unless you are a very nasty player).

20 big blinds = 40 dollars per 100 hands.

25-30 hands per hour = 10-12 dollars per hour.

The same winrate at 2/5 would be 25-30 dollars per hour.


cliffs: its impossible to grind 1/2 for a living unless you live in a cardboard box

[Off5th]

Live 1/2 is a rake-trap. I think most places in vegas do 10% to a 4 dollar cap, sometimes with another dollar for bad beat jackpot. So that means most heads up pots you will be paying 7-10% in rake which is pretty ridiculous. 2/5 will usually have the same 10%/$4 deal but it caps out every hand so its not nearly as much effective rake.

Also, lets say you are a 20 big blind per 100 winner after rake (HIGHLY unlikely unless you are a very nasty player).

20 big blinds = 40 dollars per 100 hands.

25-30 hands per hour = 10-12 dollars per hour.

The same winrate at 2/5 would be 25-30 dollars per hour.


cliffs: its impossible to grind 1/2 for a living unless you live in a cardboard box

What would be the proper bankroll to start of at 2/5? Considering there is a good amount of soft players at the B&M?

[jyms]

What would be the proper bankroll to start of at 2/5? Considering there is a good amount of soft players at the B&M?

You may not have any idea where your dreams and the actual finances and mental toll may be like. If you think you could do this may I suggest even going to Vegas for two weeks on Vacation and see how it goes. Keep detailed records, find out what it would entail and see if you can play 8+ hours a day live, live eat and breath Vegas, and how much it actually costs to play this game live. Won't cost you much of the bankroll you actually would need to do this for real anyway

[drmcboy]

If you want to grind live make sure you have a large bankroll and play at least 2/5. I've heard rent in vegas is super cheap because it is overbuilt, so I'd look at getting an apartment preferably with roommates to cut costs. Another option for short term would be to stay at a shithole like imperial palace, that way you'll cut transportation costs at least and be right on the strip for like 30-40 bucks a day.

All that said, I can glean from the tone of your post (and from the sig quote of aokrongly) that you are almost certainly not ready for this.

all of this.

vegas is really cheap! but not cheap enough to live at 1/2. Even at 2/5 covering 30 days at the IP seems tough, I think weekends will run 80. Even if we assume you get 40/night average, that is $1200. Our first house here rented for 1100, and it was a nice house.


so if you have a car I'd just look for a small place, I would be shocked if you can't find something for ~500 ish a month. You can get close to the strip from almost anywhere in vegas/nlv in about 15-20 minutes (or less obv), but it will take you 15-20 more once you get there just to get into the garage, park and walk to room.

it might be easier to do here in town, I would guess many places on the cheap end will not be on the web.

if no car, you can find a flop house type place for much less than IP where you could kind of walk to the strip, but you will need a high tolerance for heat and probably will want to sleep with a bat. a bike would be a good idea. It will suck, but it won't nearly be the hardest thing you have to deal with as a live pro.

[jyms]

Obviously you haven't done the math

[BennyLaRue]

Would it be practical staying at a hotel for a month or more till I can find a place?

Grind 24 hrs, imo. You'll triple your win rate and avoid the hassle of finding a place to stay.

Two birds, muhfuhah.

[Renton]

I'd go with about 10-15k + an additional 10k to live off while you get started. Those are both minimums and assume you have a very frugal lifestyle.

[wufwugy]

Don't do it.

Being a pro poker player takes a kind of strength most people cannot comprehend. I have been a perpetual winning player since late 07, yet I still hate it

[Off5th]

Don't do it.

Being a pro poker player takes a kind of strength most people cannot comprehend. I have been a perpetual winning player since late 07, yet I still hate it

Care to explain what you still hate about the game even though your a winning player? Guessing its the swings...

[wufwugy]

Care to explain what you still hate about the game even though your a winning player? Guessing its the swings...

And many other things

It's pretty much impossible to find a job that is as monotonous and devoid of meaningful human and environmental interaction as poker. When you go pro, it's no longer a game and no longer fun. Your success depends entirely on how soft of games you have access to and how capable of denying emotion you are

[Galapogos]

Don't do it.

Being a pro poker player takes a kind of strength most people cannot comprehend. I have been a perpetual winning player since late 07, yet I still hate it

I'm honestly shocked you play poker, I was never too sure what brought you to the forum. You're like more verbose version of bigred.

[wufwugy]

I'm honestly shocked you play poker, I was never too sure what brought you to the forum. You're like more verbose version of bigred.

I stopped posting in the strategy threads when I realized that the games are full of marginally winning regs because people post in strategy threads

[Lukie]

I stopped posting in the strategy threads when I realized that the games are full of marginally winning regs because people post in strategy threads

Out of curiosity how do you make money?

Being a long term winning online poker player is so easy compared to just about any other job. By 'easy' I mean the lifestyle it affords you; only a small percentage of people are actually long-term winning players especially to the extent that it can be a legitimate primary income. And yes I have years of experience on both sides of this to say that pretty confidently. edit: meaning I have worked other jobs/employments. I have never been a long-term losing player but I'm also not currently playing

Ever seen the show ice road truckers?

How about being a cop... where you have no idea who you are pulling over. Heck forget about who you are pulling over, think about all the drunkasses and texters while driving out there who could hit you at any second. And don't you dare go into a fast food unless you like the taste of spit.

Firefighter... I don't care how many precautions are taken, you go run into a burning building....

Door to door salesman.... now that is a shitty job. There is a life insurance salesman somewhere right now getting a door slammed in his face who has not made a sale in 2 weeks.

I can pretty much guarantee a hooker got beaten and killed somewhere last night.

A non-violent drug dealer is getting 50 years in prison.

Some guys are stripping off a roof for minimum wage, maybe less.

Or how about the run of the mill, 8-5 office worker who has to get ready, commute, sit in a cubicle, and deal with his shitty boss and retarded coworkers for a combined 12 hours a day, 5 days a week.

After working in a restaurant earlier in my life, I promised myself I would never work in a restaurant again..... unless I owned the place.


I never did realize how ridiculous it sounded to claim a $100/hour average then turn around and complain about variance lol. Hell a lot of casual players and gamblers like variance just for the rush/thrill.

[rpm]

stakes? site? # tables? average hours per day?

i'm having a very hard time believing you play poker

[rong]

I'd like to rent the girl in that Sig for about 10 to 15 minutes.

[jyms]

I can confirm sitting for over 5K hands with Wuf at 100NL (Maybe some $200) back in the day. He did play a pretty good Tagg style when it was profitable. Not sure what or how he has been doing for 2+ years

[Savy]

I'm not sure I could ever be a professional poker player, I don't think I'd be comfortable with taking a large amounts of other peoples money unless I was aware that the money on the line wasn't important to them.

I suppose online it's much easier to forget about the human side of the game, but I'd hate myself if I thought doing what I did meant that someone couldn't afford rent that month, etc.

[jyms]

That's the easiest part of poker for me.

Also as to what Wuf said. I have had some pretty good jobs and have been working pretty much the last 33 years if you include part time jobs during school and I can tell you that when poker pays as well as any job your doing it is the easiest job in the world. If your emotions get involved or you have others depending on you then it is a tough ride.

[rpm]

their problem imo. they sit at the table with money they can't afford to lose they're going to reap the consequences of that. whether hero wins it or not. away from the tables i would probably try to help someone who had a huge gambling problem and keep them away. even if that cost me some EV. but once their money's on the table i'm going to attempt to drain every cent of EV from them like i would anybody else

edit: this is direct @savy and in an imaginary world where i'm a professional. though same policy applies for me as a recreational player

[Savy]

I'd care less if they were young and single, however I have first hand experience of how lives get affected and in some cases ruined by being partially dependent on a gambling addict and it's not too fun.

I also hate that argument that if you didn't take their money someone else would, so? The point is you aren't being one of them people.

[rpm]

I'd care less if they were young and single, however I have first hand experience of how lives get affected and in some cases ruined by being partially dependent on a gambling addict and it's not too fun.

I also hate that argument that if you didn't take their money someone else would, so? The point is you aren't being one of them people.

@ the bolded part, i agree to an extent. the argument "if i don't do it somebody else will" is definitely a weak one. in fact, i'll say morally void. BUT, sitting at a card table with someone who has a gambling problem isn't "taking their money". winning a pot off them isn't even "taking their money". you're wagering your money against theirs and a huge % of the time they will have at least some equity in the pots you win off them. anyway, i'm derailing somebody's thread. this issue has been discussed on this forum before. i'll see if i can dig up the thread and link it in case you're interested.

edit: http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...er-157430.html

[Lukie]

all that being said, I pretty much agree with Renton.

[jyms]

For anyone to think they wouldn't switch lives with guys like Gabe, Danny and Max, Nutsinho, Sauce or M2M, they haven't spent enough years out of their parents basement to know what real work is like. Lukie hit the nail on the head. Even in comparison, there are lots of people that sit at computers all day, like call/order takers, dispatchers, accountants, web designers and developers, editors, writers and IT to name only a few. Why would playing poker make you a monotonous devoid person? I would think almost the opposite.

[Lukie]

Thanks jyms. When I used to play, I definitely intuitively knew that I had it pretty good, even if I didn't quite appreciate the extent of quite how good it was... if that makes any sense.

To add some more food for thought, last night at an intersection on a pretty steep hill that I frequently drive by, one of the lights was burnt out. This morning it was snowing pretty heavily, and there was a utility guy working on it in one of those cranes/lifts based in the bed of a pickup truck. Police officer was directing traffic. I don't know where I would less rather be at the bottom of a snowy road, standing in the middle of an intersection or on a crane. I also don't know how much they are being paid, but it isn't enough.

At least the snow plow guys are making bank, right? errr, maybe not quite. I have a friend who has a landscaping/snow plow business. When you factor in the truck, plow, gas, maintenance, insurance, etc. he's really not making much money even in theory. Heck last year he got stiffed on some accounts and lost money I believe, and he was doing a lot of the plowing himself. Spring rolls around and he has a guy cutting lawns for him, and one day this employee was told several times that the oil on the lawnmower is low and he MUST put oil in it. he doesn't, engine blows up, guy is nowhere to be found.

Anyway I get to the gym and one of my acquintances there has been a lawyer for about 20 years. If the guy is to be believed, and I think he can be, he worked a full time job while putting himself through school for over 10 years. Even now a lot of people want his services, but not a whole lot of people want to pay him.

I have another friend closer in age who recently finished law school and passed the bar... only now she has about $500k worth of debt piled up, and is having a hard time finding a job. only she passed the bar in another state, so she can't even be an attorney in the state of Ohio. She's look for more of a legal secretary type job.

This obviously getting monotonous. I wish that US players could still play online poker, and in hindsight I probably would have been better off moving out of country to continue playing (something that I absolutely did not and don't want to do.)

Making good money while working limited hours, on your own schedule, without a commute or having to deal with all that many people have to deal with at work isn't such a bad gig at all.

[BankItDrew]

For anyone to think they wouldn't switch lives with guys like Gabe, Danny and Max, Nutsinho, Sauce or M2M, they haven't spent enough years out of their parents basement to know what real work is like. Lukie hit the nail on the head. Even in comparison, there are lots of people that sit at computers all day, like call/order takers, dispatchers, accountants, web designers and developers, editors, writers and IT to name only a few. Why would playing poker make you a monotonous devoid person? I would think almost the opposite.

+1

I spend a lot of my time during the day on the computer clicking buttons. I've done the computer/cubicle thing for 10+ years now and I'm far from a monotonous devoid person.

[givememyleg]

+1

I spend a lot of my time during the day on the computer clicking buttons. I've done the computer/cubicle thing for 10+ years now and I'm far from a monotonous devoid person.

easy for a bot to say.

[BankItDrew]

What would you regret more?

Taking a risk and failing or succeeding.
Or,
Not taking a risk?

Renton is spot on btw, Lukie played his hand well too.

[Galapogos]

Sick old running joke bump.

[!Luck]

Whenever I read this. I just see someone who's like "Well my life sucks right now, but I like poker. If I played poker all the time my life would rule." In the end man, everywhere you go, there you are.

[Lukie]

Whenever I read this. I just see someone who's like "Well my life sucks right now, but I like poker. If I played poker all the time my life would rule." In the end man, everywhere you go, there you are.

true, and I agree with Renton's points. I was kind of coming at it from a different angle.

One more thing I will say is that I know a lot of winning players who had put in a lot of time, work, and effort into improving their games. Most also seem to be very intelligent and would likely to be successful in other ventures. I wasn't trying to underscore that at all and hopefully nobody took it that way.

[boost]

In the end man, everywhere you go, there you are.

I love phrases like this. They are clearly very obvious, but there is so much meaning and uncommon sense packed into something so obvious.

edit: I think what I find so great about these sort of perspective putters, is that they have the same sort of wide application as a parable or ancient proverb or whatever, yet they don't boil down to the same sort of vagueness which can leave you no wiser than where you started if you actually take time to reflect on the proverbs.

[JKDS]

Ok, but contrast that with the stress, swings, tilt, etc that are bitched about by people attempting to be, and even being, pros, and this dream job suddenly becomes nightmarish.

Im not saying getting your soul sucked out by a call center is awesome, but it takes a certain kind of person to be a professional player and not a lot of people have that in them.

[rong]

This has kind is diverted into a what's life all about thread. I think I can nail this one pretty well. Poker is no better a way to make money than any other. It's a means to an end. If you play online for 8hrs a day just for one weekend, it gets pretty fucking boring. If you're winning then you're happy about it, and throughout that 16 hrs you'll experience frustration and excitement, sure, but its not an end in itself. If you take the money out of it, its just sitting in front of a screen clicking buttons and making decisions, you're not climbing mountains, nailing hot chicks, hanging out with friends, sailing the ocean, discovering new places on crazy adventures, having fun with your family, helping the sick, needy or poor, building an empire, changing the world, surfing a wave, chasing beautiful women, falling in love or any of the other satisfying, meaningful or contenting things that life has to offer.

Now, if playing poker frees you to enable you to do any of those things or whatever else it is you want out of life, then that's great. But the important thing is figuring out what you want out of life in the first place and then finding a means to getting it. Poker is an acceptable means, as is any other job. If I could be a garbage collector and earn enough and have enough free time to do all the importat things then I'd be happy. But playing poker for 8hrs a day just to pay the bills and scrape by would not leave me happy.

You either need a very satisfying job that has value, meaning and contentment built into it (ie involves enough of the things on that list above or your own list, w/e) or you need a job that gives you enough money and time (read as freedom) to enable you to do it.

I know a grand total of 2 people who have jobs that of themselves provide that individual with the satisfaction they need. So the rest of us are left with a time and money trade off. So the key to happiness is figuring out what you want from life and then finding a job that gives you enough free time and money to do it. As long as you're not hating the job or selling your soul to get the cash then the job becomes irrelevant.

[Pascal]

Poker is no better a way to make money than any other. It's a means to an end. If you play online for 8hrs a day just for one weekend, it gets pretty fucking boring.

Disagree, I have great fun when I play poker. Even though it may be infuriating etc, the emotions are all part of the enjoyment for me. Maybe I'm a sadist, who knows

[MadMojoMonkey]

Maybe I'm a sadist, who knows

Maybe, but this would be masochism.

[drmcboy]

Disagree, I have great fun when I play poker. Even though it may be infuriating etc, the emotions are all part of the enjoyment for me. Maybe I'm a sadist, who knows

If you meet anyone who tells you they always have 'great fun' playing poker and they play full time, I guarantee 1 of the 2 is a lie. Unless it's jerry yang.

[donkbee]

But playing poker for 8hrs a day just to pay the bills and scrape by would not leave me happy.

QFT

The argument can obviously be made that this isn't enjoyable at any job. But it is many times worse playing poker for a living because if you are scraping by playing poker, downswings are you going to just wreck you.

[Pascal]

Not saying there aren't bad times, there are plenty. But I'm still happy when things are going neutral and rong made it sound like playing poker is just one boring grind. Def not always happy though, you have a point

[rong]

Not saying there aren't bad times, there are plenty. But I'm still happy when things are going neutral and rong made it sound like playing poker is just one boring grind. Def not always happy though, you have a point

Do you actually play for a living and have an above average standard of living?

[mrhappy333]

I love play pokers.

[Pascal]

i've never played for a living, but i played as many games as most people do full time in my 2nd year alongside my degree

[givememyleg]

this is an interesting read for anyone considering jumping into being a live pro: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...vegas-1038462/

[Off5th]

this is an interesting read for anyone considering jumping into being a live pro: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...vegas-1038462/

So I finally read his whole thread. Do you think that he has some big leaks in his game? ex. buying in with on 50bb?