At its core,

[OngBonga]

Yeah wuf's back!

And blabbering something about god. And statism.

All I know is the state isn't the spirit. I couldn't give a fuck about god, it's a ridiculous concept. But the spirit... well that's kinda ridiculous too, but ask yourself... do you have free will? Do you manipulate the universe around you? Or are you following a path which was determined at the instant of the big bang? I subsrcibe to the former. Rocks floating through space follow paths determined by their "initial conditions". The path I take is determined by the choices I make. So yeah, the spirit exists.

Is this even relevant to your point? Fuck the state, that might swing it.

[wufwugy]

In my estimation, the concept of free will may require the concept of there being metaphysical truth. Scientific truth gets us to determinism, and that's that.

[OngBonga]

In my estimation, the concept of free will may require the concept of there being metaphysical truth. Scientific truth gets us to determinism, and that's that.

Metaphysical truth is no less a concept than scientific truth. There is metaphysical truth... that there is time and space. Why should I abandon the concept of things existing outside of physical reality? Pi doesn't exist in a physical form, but it's extremely useful when it comes to describing the physical world.

I grant the deterministic nature of the universe is a logical concept, unlike free will. But consciousness is illogical if the universe is deterministic. Why would I need to feel pain when I touch fire? Surely I was always going to touch it then immediately move my hand away, why does my brain need to be told to move my hand?

The bottom line really is that life just seems utterly pointless if we don't have free will. I choose to believe in the more optimistic possibility.

[wufwugy]

I grant the deterministic nature of the universe is a logical concept, unlike free will.

Speaking of religion, how about that religion espoused by those who don't remotely understand the mechanics of the universe positing that they know the mechanics say there is no free will.

[a500lbgorilla]

Pi doesn't exist in a physical form, but it's extremely useful when it comes to describing the physical world.

Nice.

I grant the deterministic nature of the universe is a logical concept, unlike free will. But consciousness is illogical if the universe is deterministic. Why would I need to feel pain when I touch fire?

Genetic survival. Plants have an intellect in that they respond directly to their chemical environment. They're structured specifically to respond in the way they do. Worms only have 3 types of neurons, some to sense light, some to relay signals from the skin to muscles, and some to communicate across muscles. They manage to squirm around successfully enough. Then there are the higher ordered life forms with huge bundles of neurons near the sense organs and an arbor which stretches through the body. There are entire neuronal organs which only interface with other neurons, some of them trying to predict the future.

Surely I was always going to touch it then immediately move my hand away, why does my brain need to be told to move my hand?

Surely. If only God could have seen it coming, how sure was it?

[Poopadoop]

The bottom line really is that life just seems utterly pointless if we don't have free will.

Don't know if I would agree with that. And even if it were true, who says life needs to have a point, or that it would have one if we were free to choose our destinies. In a million years the universe is not going to miss any of us, I can promise that.

Just enjoy the ride, marvel at it all...

I choose to believe in the more optimistic possibility.

I would deign to suggest you prefer to believe in free will because you think its the only thing keeping you from stabbing yourself in the eye with scissors. Fact is, evolution is what you should be thanking for quelling that offhand urge.