I am the smartest man alive.

[ProZachNation]

I just designed a perpetual motion machine that works, for real yos.

Thought it up while in the shower and drawed it up in paint. Ill go patent it and be a billionaire.


Time for all you engineering majors to go crazy


ps. Im not telling you guys my design cuz I know you all will steal it. I will tell you what its not tho. Not no off balance wheel, or a bouyancy wheel or no perfect mirror.

[Greedo017]

I just designed a perpetual motion machine that doesn't work

[ProZachNation]

I just had an egineering major tell me the only flaw he sees is that it [/b]might[b] not be able to power itself. ANd I am pretty sure it can because I have done some research into that.

[Greedo017]

show me your picture

[Lukie]

you are retarded

I feel bad for anyone who makes themself dumber by believing you. Even if you are joking.



Alright, seriously prozach, you are awesome, but my comments still stand.

[Lukie]

by the way, attempts to make a perpetual motion machine have been tried for milleniums. All unsuccessfully.

Why? Because they are against the physical laws of nature.

[PO$$E$$ED]

someone hasn't been getting their meds lately

[fasin8ing]

I saw one of those machines on HBO late night. I think it was Real Sex 35 and they were called fu**ing machines. Women are buying them up . Good luck and happy endeavors.

[Greedo017]

i screwed up the copy/paste and lost the website, but basically you can't get a patent without a working model because so many people try to get patent's on perpetual motion machines that never work.

[Muxy]

wtf is this thing we are talkign about

[Lukie]

think of it as a toy that never runs out of batteries

[bluey]

dudeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee i love you. and i dont know what your buildin but ill buy it gkthx

[Greedo017]

wtf is this thing we are talkign about

[a500lbgorilla]

by the way, attempts to make a perpetual motion machine have been tried for milleniums. All unsuccessfully.

Why? Because they are against the physical laws of nature.

F the haters

[a500lbgorilla]

obviously the answer is to attach a piece of buttered toast to the back of a cat and drop it.

[ProZachNation]

by the way, attempts to make a perpetual motion machine have been tried for milleniums. All unsuccessfully.

Why? Because they are against the physical laws of nature.

F the haters

The answer to making a perpetual motion device is to side step a law of nature, I know of a object that can side step a law and I can use to to make perpetual motion.



http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/overbal.htm weeeeeee over balanced wheel, these suck and usually make exert more force backwards then forwards making them below useless for perpetual motion plus the shitty thing called friction makes them not viable. Thank god I dont have to worry about friction in my machine its a bitch.

[Xianti]

Thought it up while in the shower and drawed it up in paint.

Work on your grammar first, if you want anyone to take you seriously.

[Aceofone]

Hey X, no real scientist needs spelling to break the laws of thermodynamics.

[Warpe]

Work on your understanding of the laws of physics, if you want anyone to take you seriously.

fyp

[Xianti]

I never said anything about spelling. Proper grammar helps get your message across and is often taken more seriously.

[ProZachNation]

I know proper grammar, I dont like the word "drew" because I know a few people named Drew. Drawn sounds stupid in my head.

And it is a joke post even though the design is wickedly clever, there are two or three questions I need answered before I will know for sure whether or not it could work.

Is there some sort of equation using the size and strength of a magnet to determine the size of its magnetic field?

FMP for proper(at least as proper as I am willing to write while eating grammar)

I have just designed a perpetual motion machine that works. I thought it up while I was taking a shower. I have drawn a rough sketch of the machine in paint. I will patent it and become a billionaire. A working perpetual motion machine should turn the world of physics upside down and make you engineerng majors crazy.

ps. I am not telling any of my fellow FTRers my design because I know that all of you will steal it. I will tell you what the machine is not. The machine is not a overbalanced wheel, nor a bouyancy wheel, or a perfect mirror.

[a500lbgorilla]

cant use big magnets, it'll get fucked up when the magnetic field of the earth switches. Sorry.

[ake]

Don't ever let this thread die

[Miffed22001]

if you have designed this i will lick my own butt
kthx

[PO$$E$$ED]

someone should start a thread called "things you will do if it turns out ProZach's machine works"

if ProZach's design works, I will put my cell phone up my ass and let everyone on FTR call me

[Lukie]

prozach,

I'm sure you can come up with various designs where it would appear that you could get perpetual motion from permanent magnets.

This is not perpetual motion but simply a release of the energy stored in the magnets. Whenever the field of a permanent magnet is acted upon there is a slight realignment in the magnetic domains contained within the magnet. The domains are coerced into aligning with the field it is interacting with. The shift is slight in hard magnetic materials and large in soft magnetic materials. In a hard material such as a rare earth magnet the change may not be seen for hundreds of thousands of interactions.

So where does the energy come from? The energy that is transferred into motion is the energy holding the magnetic domains in place. It took energy to form the magnet and to have the magnetic domains formed in a way that forces the magnetic field to extend outside of the material itself. This device is simply a way of extracting the potential energy stored in a magnet from when it was manufactured.

So basically, no. Sorry.

[ake]

Let the boy dream, Lukie.

[Dislexsik]

Let the boy dream, Lukie.

Wake up calls are cool.

[Muxy]

I never said anything about spelling. Proper grammar helps get your message across and is often taken more seriously.

you have a ruff 1 @ work terday xman?

[Xianti]

I'm just saying...

[biondino]

someone should start a thread called "things you will do if it turns out ProZach's machine works"

Doesn't matter if ProZach's design works, I will put my cell phone up my ass and beg everyone on FTR call me

FYP

[SuperDave9x19]

wtf is this thing we are talkign about

perpetual motion is something that powers itself by virtue of it's own motion. This is not "frictionless and dragless" but something that MAKES ENOUGH ADDITIONAL ENERGY off of it's own motion that it overcomes friction, drag and typical losses.

So let's say you had a perpertual motion automobile. You would only have to fill up gas to get up to speed but so long as you maintain speed it will never slow down by virtue of the perpetual motion device. With enough surplus energy it would not even need the gas to start up.

It defies the Law of Entropy.

[Lukie]

Hey ya'll if I could come up with a device that could create energy out of nothing, it would accelerate to infinite energy, creating a black hole and destroying us all beyond recognition.

True.

[ake]

oh noes prozach is gonna wipe out the universe with the thing he invented in his shower

[SuperDave9x19]

oh noes prozach is gonna wipe out the universe with the thing he invented in his shower

scary thought.

All i do is whack off n let it drain

[a500lbgorilla]

Hey ya'll if I could come up with a device that could create energy out of nothing, it would accelerate to infinite energy, creating a black hole and destroying us all beyond recognition.

True.

F the haters

[Pyroxene]

Is there some sort of equation using the size and strength of a magnet to determine the size of its magnetic field?

You would be looking for Maxwell's equations. I looked around for the best link and found that Wikipedia has a pretty good.

Understand though, that magnets do not side step nature's laws. Not only do they follow those laws, they were one of the early things that helped man discover those laws.

The equations that describe how electro-magnetic fields interact to produce force are extremely well understood. They are used everyday to compute how much force a motor will generate and, in reverse, how much electro-motive force will be generated with a generator is driven. The difference between the energy put into the device and the useful energy out of either device is the heat and deformation loss to friction and the hysteresis loss.

[ProZachNation]

I know magnets dont side step laws of nature, magnet is used to create the energy in my device, the thing thats moves the magnet is the real trick.

[ake]

PLEASE STOP

[Pelion]

the thing thats moves the magnet is the real trick.

Its a mouse with wings isnt it...

[biondino]

Could someone invent a not-quite-perpetual motion amchine which requires nothing more than an elderly gentleman occasionally giving the machine a nudge to keep it going?

[Pelion]

Could someone invent a not-quite-perpetual motion amchine which requires nothing more than an elderly gentleman occasionally giving the machine a nudge to keep it going?

thats just a low friction wheel. No use in that since you can never get out more than you put in in the first place. I suppose you could use it to store energy though.

[Lukie]

I know magnets dont side step laws of nature, magnet is used to create the energy in my device, the thing thats moves the magnet is the real trick.

you can't 'create' energy

you don't seem to understand that.

[Lukie]

So whatever happens in your device, the energy is coming from somewhere, and there will inevitably be losses to heat and friction.

GG prozach.

[Pyroxene]

I know magnets dont side step laws of nature, magnet is used to create the energy in my device, the thing thats moves the magnet is the real trick.

Still trying to keep this on track as a learning experience

Magnets do not create energy. As far as anyone knows, nothing creates energy. Energy is just converted from one form to another. And by that, we do not mean in some strange abstract sense that it is converted. We mean it very precisely. The number of Joules put into a system will equal the Joules out. You may have to include mass changes for certain types of transformations as mass is a manifestation of energy; a star would be an example of such a system.

The total inflow of energy into a system must equal the total outflow of energy from the system, plus the change in the energy contained within the system. This is actually the first law of thermodynamics. As your system is self contained by definition, you are trying to come up with a device that converts energy of motion into some other form of energy and back into energy of motion, all with 100% efficiency. The reason this is tough is described by the second law of thermodynamics: the total entropy of any isolated thermodynamic system tends to increase over time, approaching a maximum value. It is important to note that the law says tends. The law does not state that random molecules cannot come together to form a Coke bottle; only that it is far more likely that a Coke bottle will be smashed into random molecules.

When kinetic energy is put into a system to turn a magnet in coil, that energy is converted into electromagnetic energy. Some of that kinetic energy gets lost to heat in the bearings and a fair chunk to histeresis in the windings. This is why an electric generator gets warm (or downright hot).

That thermal energy is wicked hard to recover in a usable way (its the entropy from the second law). Even when we do devise ways to convert it to a more useful form of energy, the conversion process does not reach 100% for any complex systems. And here, complex does not mean complex like a car, but complex as in more than a few atoms.

But, should you devise some interesting way of achieving 100% conversion of that energy you could create a perpetual motion machine. Have at it.

[Lukie]

F THE HATERS

YOU CAN DO IT PROZACH

[™]

they made perpetual motion machines on myth busters and they got some to work, the problem is that they produced so little power that they were just pointless

[EricE]

Yeah, perpetual motion doesn’t imply you have to create energy, just that you take energy from something that doesn’t matter. Like temperature from the ambient air or wave motion.

[Pyroxene]

they made perpetual motion machines on myth busters and they got some to work, the problem is that they produced so little power that they were just pointless

Myth Busters episode 24 demonstrated:

1) A G-Strain amplifier that 'generated energy from the curvature of space'. Testing indicated that it was an energy sink, not a source.

2) a temperature wheel that relied on the solar energy input. Again, its easy to make something appear to generate energy if you are pumping energy into it and not counting it.

3) A device that output power from radio waves. But, again, radio waves are electromagnetic energy. So, this was really a device that converts electromagnetic energy to another form of electromagnetic energy. This was the device that output a small amount of energy. Energy that it was receiving from an outside system, the radio wave generators.

[Xianti]

Yeah, perpetual motion doesn’t imply you have to create energy, just that you take energy from something that doesn’t matter. Like temperature from the ambient air or wave motion.

Actually, no.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_motion_machine

Perpetual motion refers to a condition in which an object moves forever without the expenditure of any limited internal or external source of energy.

[ProZachNation]

So whatever happens in your device, the energy is coming from somewhere, and there will inevitably be losses to heat and friction.

GG prozach.

It will have a loss the friction but that doesnt matter in mine.

[EricE]

Yeah, perpetual motion doesn’t imply you have to create energy, just that you take energy from something that doesn’t matter. Like temperature from the ambient air or wave motion.

Actually, no.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_motion_machine

Perpetual motion refers to a condition in which an object moves forever without the expenditure of any limited internal or external source of energy.

eh whatever. By that definition a perpetual motion machine is imposible. I think the term is more commonly used like I defined it...with the energy coming from somewhere that has such a large source that it can be considered limitless. (such as motion created by the transfer of heat energy from the air, etc.)

{I think I fixed it to how it should be - Lukie}

[sandstorm]

By that definition a perpetual motion machine is imposible.

bingo

[Xianti]

By that definition a perpetual motion machine is imposible.

bingo

Now, we're getting somewhere.

[Lukie]

they made perpetual motion machines on myth busters and they got some to work, the problem is that they produced so little power that they were just pointless

wrong

[Lukie]

Yeah, perpetual motion doesn’t imply you have to create energy, just that you take energy from something that doesn’t matter. Like temperature from the ambient air or wave motion.

wrong

[Lukie]

oh wow, somebody help me, I messed something up. I think I hit edit on eric's post instead of 'quote'. Shit? Part of that is his writing and part of it is mine...

[Lukie]

Yeah, perpetual motion doesn’t imply you have to create energy, just that you take energy from something that doesn’t matter. Like temperature from the ambient air or wave motion.

Actually, no.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_motion_machine

Perpetual motion refers to a condition in which an object moves forever without the expenditure of any limited internal or external source of energy.

eh whatever. By that definition a perpetual motion machine is imposible. I think the term is more commonly used like I defined it...with the energy coming from somewhere that has such a large source that it can be considered limitless. (such as motion created by the transfer of heat energy from the air, etc.)

{I think I fixed it to how it should be - Lukie}

Ok, by this definition, the solar powered car I bought when I was a kid is a perpetual motion machine. And that's VERY OBVIOUSLY WRONG.

It's just using the energy of the sun...

[Lukie]

So whatever happens in your device, the energy is coming from somewhere, and there will inevitably be losses to heat and friction.

GG prozach.

It will have a loss the friction but that doesnt matter in mine.

right, so in essence, you are the first person in the history of mankind to be able to create new energy.

That's what it would take.

[Greedo017]

i think, really, your definition of perpetual motion is still wrong or at least too confusing.

This is a machine that will, with no friction or loss due to an imperfection of that sort, create energy. Every cycle or whatever, it will have more energy than it did last cycle.

Friction and things like that are NOT the reason these machines don't work. We can theoretically reduce friction to ~0. There are other more fundamental flaws (laws of thermodynamics) which we can never ever ever overcome.

For an example. We can spin a ~frictionless wheel, and it will spin forever. That is not exciting. However, if someone was to design a wheel that actually did spin forever, and it did this with significant friction, that wheel would be creating more energy than it started with every cycle, because it starts with x energy, loses y energy to friction, and then ends up with x energy again.

[ProZachNation]

My machine has friction, friction isnt a big deal as long as you are creating enough energy to overcome the friction.

Thank god you can get potential energy from nothing.

[Xianti]

Thank god you can get potential energy from nothing.

WOW! YOU'RE GONNA BE FILTHY RICH!

[ake]

Wow prozach.. I don't know what to say, either you're a comical genius or you're ¤(#"U% retarded

But since you can create energy, maybe you can build something for me?
I hate paying for gas and electricity. Oh and you better watch out btw, the big oil companies will send assassins

[midas06]

I'll protect you

[ProZachNation]

Thanks midas, ride(In our perpetually powered car) together die together

[Lukie]

Thank god you can get potential energy from nothing.

[ProZachNation]

Thank god I can get potential energy from a nifty lil trick requiring not outside energy.

FMP

[sandstorm]

My machine has friction, friction isnt a big deal as long as you are creating enough energy to overcome the friction.

Thank god you can get potential energy from nothing.

you can't get energy from nothing. energy can't be created or destroyed. please show us the design so we can point out what's wrong with it.

[ake]

You're just trying to steal his genius ideas sandstorm, you are a bad person

[sandstorm]

i'm just getting frustrated (but yea you're right)

[ake]

sigged!

edit: prozach, here's a suggestion for a motion..back and forth, or up and down!

[SonOfAkira]

sigged!

edit: prozach, here's a suggestion for a motion..back and forth, or up and down!

Suddenly, I realize that the little smiley face man is cutting his wrist with a razor, not banging his thumb with a hammer, as previously thought. Wow, that's morbid.

[pgil]

now, although the idea of a perpetual motion machine is somewhat ludicrous, the arguments against it arent all great either.

for instance, energy cannot be created or destroyed. the part that is missing is "in a closed system", which is by definition true. is the earth a closed system. ummm, no. not by a long shot. it is treated as such for matters of convenience.
is the universe a closed system. dunno, but probably not. at least not using current definitions of potential energy. potential energy could be 'created' by sending a small craft into the sun. the energy required to get to the sun (including that lost to friction etc) would not come close to the 'potential' energy that is 'created' when the craft enters the much greater gravitational field of the sun. if this craft were somehow to float through space for eternity, or to land on the moon, it would have destroyed energy. the potential energy that is created as the craft is propelled upward from the earth is permanently lost once it leaves the earths gravitational field. if the craft lands on a surface with a much smaller gravitational pull, then this energy has been lost forever.

[Pelion]

for instance, energy cannot be created or destroyed. the part that is missing is "in a closed system", which is by definition true. is the earth a closed system. ummm, no. not by a long shot. it is treated as such for matters of convenience.
is the universe a closed system. dunno, but probably not.

In order for the universe to be an open system youd need to be able to interact with whatever is outside it. There is no method that physics knows about in which we could interact with something outside of our universe.

the energy required to get to the sun (including that lost to friction etc) would not come close to the 'potential' energy that is 'created' when the craft enters the much greater gravitational field of the sun.

You arent creating potential energy here. You start with potential energy and it is converted into kinetic energy as the craft accelerates towards the sun (because of gravity).

if this craft were somehow to float through space for eternity, or to land on the moon, it would have destroyed energy.

That doesnt make an awful lot of sense. No craft can "somehow float" out of the gravitational pull of the sun (or anywhere else for that matter). You need to fire rockets, converting fuel (chemical potential energy) into kinetic energy. As you move away from the sun you are converting some of that kinetic energy into gravitational potential energy since the sun is trying to pull you back. You can only start to "float" towards the moon with engines off when you are close enough so that the pull of the moon is stronger than that of the sun.

the potential energy that is created as the craft is propelled upward from the earth is permanently lost once it leaves the earths gravitational field. if the craft lands on a surface with a much smaller gravitational pull, then this energy has been lost forever.

first off. You cant leave a gravitational field. Gravitational fields have infinite range, they just get weaker as distance from the source increases.
When you land on the moon you still have all of that potential energy (from the earth) stored up. If you then decide to leave the moon, gravity will pull you back to earth and all of the potential energy will again be converted to kinetic energy. If your parachute then fails and you spread youself over North America, the kinetic energy of your ships will be converted into kinetic (thermal energy) when your ships catches fire in the atmosphere, as well as when it eventually hits the ground and gives the earth a slight kick in the other direction.

At no point is any of this energy destroyed.

Also, you cant stay landed on an object with a "smaller gravitational pull" unless you somehow anchor yourself to it. What happens when you land on the moon as that the gravitational pull of the moon is larger than that of the earth because you are so much closer to it. This means gravity holds you to the moon.

[a500lbgorilla]

yah your sun example is backwards, you're losing PE as you move closer to the sun.