I am the smartest man alive.

[pgil]

how am i losing PE as I approach the sun. as i get closer, the suns gravitational effect on me increases, increasing my PE. also increasing my KE. certainly there will be a point at which PE is no longer increasing, but until that point PE is being created.

as for landing on the moon. if we take an object a little further away, say pluto. we land on pluto. we are now for all intents and purposes fully outside of the effects of the gravity of the earth. unless we decide to make the return trip to the earth, the PE that was built up when we left the earth is now lost forever. since pluto has a smaller gravitational pull (compared to that of the earth) the energy that is exchanged during our landing will be less than the energy that was required to leave the earths atmosphere, meaning that energy was lost somewhere along the way. it wasnt lost during propulsion to pluto, as that is a pretty straightforward shift from fuel to kinetic energy. it was lost because the concept of potential energy is inherently flawed (if we allow travel outside of the influence of the earths gravitational field).

[Pelion]

how am i losing PE as I approach the sun. as i get closer, the suns gravitational effect on me increases, increasing my PE. also increasing my KE. certainly there will be a point at which PE is no longer increasing, but until that point PE is being created.

Conventionally, potential energies have negative sign. As you approach the sun, the magnitude of your potential energy increases (i.e. the potential well gets deeper), but it is negative. To conserve energy, kinetic energy (which is positive) increases by the same amount.

[pgil]

PE = mgd (d = distance as opposed to the usual h (height)).
this means that once you enter the gravitational field of the sun (to continue my example) you have the maximal amount of PE. you are at the greatest distance from the sun. this is where the laws of the conservation of energy break down. this PE does not come from anywhere. it is created by an object entering a new field. then as you move closer, some of this is converted to KE, and some is lost due to other forces. but the initial well of PE appeared out of nowhere.

[DogOnMySide]

This thread reminds me of school. Me and a mate made up a cartoon hero called Conservation Of Energy Man. He could convert energy between forms.

For example, he could get an elevator to the top of a building and gain lots of potential energy... which he could then convert to deadly HEAT energy to BLAST his foes into CINDERS.

Unfortunately he would then need a hearty meal to be able to get off the roof as he'd used up all his potential energy and would be stuck.

We also designed his nemesis... CELERON! An evil villain, based on the "fact" that celery takes more energy to eat it than it actually gives you.

Only the evil Celeron could ultimately drain Conservation Of Energy Man's seemingly limitless power. Mu-ha-ha-ha-ha-haaaaaa

[shysti]

i screwed up the copy/paste and lost the website, but basically you can't get a patent without a working model because so many people try to get patent's on perpetual motion machines that never work.

Being that I actually work for the US Patent and Trademark office, you are correcto my friend. You can't patent just an idea.

[shysti]

This thread reminds me of school. Me and a mate made up a cartoon hero called Conservation Of Energy Man. He could convert energy between forms.

For example, he could get an elevator to the top of a building and gain lots of potential energy... which he could then convert to deadly HEAT energy to BLAST his foes into CINDERS.

Unfortunately he would then need a hearty meal to be able to get off the roof as he'd used up all his potential energy and would be stuck.

We also designed his nemesis... CELERON! An evil villain, based on the "fact" that celery takes more energy to eat it than it actually gives you.

Only the evil Celeron could ultimately drain Conservation Of Energy Man's seemingly limitless power. Mu-ha-ha-ha-ha-haaaaaa

Nerds..j/k that sounds pretty freakin awesome

[Lukie]

pgil, energy never gets 'lost' forever.

[ProZachNation]

Lukie if I get a patent for it and it works can I be a Bas Ass Mofo?

[shysti]

All I want to know is how do we create a teleport machine

[a500lbgorilla]

Lukie if I get a patent for it and it works can I be a Bas Ass Mofo?

BA MOFOs dont patent stuff, they just assume no one would be stupid enough to cross them by stealing their idea

[Lukie]

Lukie if I get a patent for it and it works can I be a Bas Ass Mofo?

ill take it one step further. You get to be the all-time leader of the all-mighty bad ass mofos.

[pgil]

pgil, energy never gets 'lost' forever.

since this class of statements were the very ones I was arguing against, simply restating them is not very convincing.

[bigred]

Who wants to start a new club? It will be called the pansy, flower-loving, walks on the beach mofos

[Lukie]

pgil, energy never gets 'lost' forever.

since this class of statements were the very ones I was arguing against, simply restating them is not very convincing.

lol, ok

hey, if you want to continue arguing against one of the fundamental laws (law of conservation of energy) that all of physics is based on go right ahead.

fwiw it's really not debatable at this point in time. But I guess some people see it and some people don't...

[pgil]

pgil, energy never gets 'lost' forever.

since this class of statements were the very ones I was arguing against, simply restating them is not very convincing.

lol, ok

hey, if you want to continue arguing against one of the fundamental laws (law of conservation of energy) that all of physics is based on go right ahead.

fwiw it's really not debatable at this point in time. But I guess some people see it and some people don't...

I will gladly.

FWIW I am not arguing against the law of conservation of energy, which states that energy cannot be created or destroyed in a closed system, because this is a tautology and is therefore true by definition. I am however arguing that the earth is NOT a closed system, and therefore this law does not apply.

the reason this law does not apply is that the concept of gravitational potential energy is flawed if we allow travel outside of the earth (which can and does occur). once the object is no longer within the field of influence of the gravity of the earth whatever PEg had been stored up in the object has been lost (and lost forever baring a return to the field). since this can occur, the earth is not a closed system, and the law does not apply.

[Lukie]

our entire universe is a closed system

[gabe]

hey lukie i havent read any of this except the last few posts, is it worth reading the entire thread?

[Xianti]

is it worth reading the entire thread?

No.

[Lukie]

hey lukie i havent read any of this except the last few posts, is it worth reading the entire thread?

just scroll through and read the posts by prozach

[Lukie]

heyyy prozach how's work on the perpetual motion machine coming along?

[Pelion]

I am however arguing that the earth is NOT a closed system, and therefore this law does not apply.

1) The universe is a closed system so energy cannot be created or destroyed.

2) The Earth is nearly a closed system. When you are considering things like machines working on earth, they really dont lose much (any) energy to space so you can treat it as a closed system. If the Earth wasnt a closed system (but the universe was) then that doesnt mean you can suddenly create or destroy energy on the Earth. It just means you can transfer energy between the Earth and the rest of the universe.

the reason this law does not apply is that the concept of gravitational potential energy is flawed

The concept isnt flawed.... you just dont understand it. You keep talking about travelling outside the influence of gravity. Gravitation fields have infinite range so this isnt a very common occurence.
Consider a universe (a very big one) with only the Earth and your spaceship in it.

As you move further away from the earth, the gravitational force on your ship gets weaker but it never disappears. If you park your spaceship just sly of an infinite distance away from the Earth and switch the engines off there is still a very small gravitational attraction between yourself and the Earth. You begin to accelerate towards the Earth. On the way out from the Earth you had to do work against gravity to move yourself away. Now this stored potential energy is being converted into kinetic energy as you fall back in. There has been no energy created or destroyed.

Also, your formula for potential energy wont work in this case. That is an approximation used for parallel fields so it only works near to the Earths surface.

[midas06]

I just heard prozach has quit poker because his patents are worth billions.

[ProZachNation]

Well clearing a bonus doesnt seem worth it when I can make billions in the next few years but its fun.



Ok guys, stop thinking physics, look at Biology.

[pgil]

I am however arguing that the earth is NOT a closed system, and therefore this law does not apply.

1) The universe is a closed system so energy cannot be created or destroyed.

that's a pretty big statement to be making without any argument behind it.

now consider a universe with 3 objects: the earth, my spaceship, and a jupiter sized planet. jupiter and the earth are moving away from each other and are a great distance apart. my spaceship began on the earth. it left the earth and travelled to the jupiter sized planet, where it crashed. the craft will never return to earth as it is now broken. the jupiter sized planet and the earth will never (for all intents and purposes) meet as they are accellerating away from each other. what happened to the PE that was present in the spaceship when it left the earth?? where did the energy come from that the spaceship now has as it accelerates towards the surface of the jupiter sized planet??

[a500lbgorilla]

The only PE the ship had on earth was from its rockets and jupiter pulling on it. All that energy got it to jupiter where the only PE it had was the PE from the Earth pulling on it. But that PE is too small to do anything.

Your examples serve to show a lack of understanding more so than an eyeopening example.

Can you explain it becuase I don't see any outside forces producing any work.

[Pelion]

now consider a universe with 3 objects: the earth, my spaceship, and a jupiter sized planet. jupiter and the earth are moving away from each other and are a great distance apart. my spaceship began on the earth. it left the earth and travelled to the jupiter sized planet, where it crashed. the craft will never return to earth as it is now broken. the jupiter sized planet and the earth will never (for all intents and purposes) meet as they are accellerating away from each other. what happened to the PE that was present in the spaceship when it left the earth?? where did the energy come from that the spaceship now has as it accelerates towards the surface of the jupiter sized planet??

Just because its landed on jupiter doesnt mean it has destroyed Earths potential energy. It is stuck in a potential well due to Jupiter, but since the Earth is pulling in the other direction the potential well is shallower than it would otherwise have been. If you then accellerate and stop at a point just close enough for Earth to pull you back in, all of that PE that you stored up will be converted back into KE again.

[a500lbgorilla]

Also, you have to consider the system before crash. If you consider the system after crash, it's too hard to consider all the KE from the speeding ship being transfered by collision into some KE for the planet.

But if you think about it before crash, it's pretty simple since the ship on earth has a lot of PE and no KE and just before crash on Jupiter has a lot of KE and a little PE. After crash, it has a little PE and the planet has more KE.

[pgil]

doesnt the ship on earth have little PE as well as no KE? It has no PEearth (assuming we use the surface of the planets as our referent) and has a small amount of PEjupiter. While on Jupiter it has a small amount of PEearth and no PEjupiter. however the PEjupiter that it had on earth will be larger than the PEearth it has while on jupiter.

[pgil]

as a bit of an aside and more relevant to the OP
http://depalma.pair.com/Tewari/Chap8.html

[Lukie]

best thread evar

[a500lbgorilla]

doesnt the ship on earth have little PE as well as no KE? It has no PEearth (assuming we use the surface of the planets as our referent) and has a small amount of PEjupiter. While on Jupiter it has a small amount of PEearth and no PEjupiter. however the PEjupiter that it had on earth will be larger than the PEearth it has while on jupiter.

Yah, but the rockets and collision are doing work, thus changing the total energy of the ship.

[Lukie]

any updates zach?

[ProZachNation]

You guys should think more about Biology if you wana see where I am coming from.


My comp was overheating like an ass today, gg parents not having air conditioning. So I got a 120mm fan got home realized that my stupid comp case had mesh but its not for a 120mm fan its just a bit smaller so I installed the fan anyways and like 1/3rd of it is just blowing into the side of the case so it sounds like a mini vacuum cleaner. So Im dealing with that and my bonus, once I get those issues cleared Ill talk about my PP machine more.


Think Biology.

[Pyroxene]

the jupiter sized planet and the earth will never (for all intents and purposes) meet as they are accellerating away from each other.

How would they be accelerating away from one another????

Your entire universe consists of 3 objects. The only force at play is the gravitational force between the Earth and Jupiter/Ship.

F=ma for this macroscopic case.

They will be accelerating toward one another. Their velocity may start out such that they are moving away from one another, but they will ALWAYS and FOREVER be accelerating toward one another. Even objects that orbit one another are always accelerating toward each other.

[Greedo017]

this help pgil?

[pgil]

doesnt the ship on earth have little PE as well as no KE? It has no PEearth (assuming we use the surface of the planets as our referent) and has a small amount of PEjupiter. While on Jupiter it has a small amount of PEearth and no PEjupiter. however the PEjupiter that it had on earth will be larger than the PEearth it has while on jupiter.

Yah, but the rockets and collision are doing work, thus changing the total energy of the ship.

but the forces involved in the collision have nothing to do with PE, only KE. it is a simple transfer of KE from the ship to the planet. The rockets have chemical potential energy, but that is something different.

As far as the unstable nature of my three object universe is concerned, it is a hypothetical situation designed to eliminate the effects of all other gravitational fields from consideration of the total amount of force at play in the system. if you are trying to argue that the other gravitational fields are required to make the universe a closed system, then that is one thing. although that would seem to create a bit of a problem for calculations of forces here on earth. I wouldn't want to be calculating a PE for every single gravitational field that exists in the known universe for every single move here on earth. that would take too much time. if you want to argue that all of the other fields balance out, then you must explain why, since i dont think we are situated at the center of the universe.

[Pelion]

but the forces involved in the collision have nothing to do with PE, only KE. it is a simple transfer of KE from the ship to the planet. The rockets have chemical potential energy, but that is something different.

Yes but that KE came from somewhere before the ship had it. Some of it is chemical potential energy -> KE and some is gravitational PE -> KE. None of it just appears as KE and none of it is lost after the crash.

As far as the unstable nature of my three object universe is concerned, it is a hypothetical situation designed to eliminate the effects of all other gravitational fields from consideration of the total amount of force at play in the system. if you are trying to argue that the other gravitational fields are required to make the universe a closed system, then that is one thing.

I dont think anyone is saying that and if they are then they are wrong.

[pgil]

using a ship of mass 1 (for convenience) and using the actual mass of both the earth and jupiter, the largest amount of PE is observed in the system when the ship is 1 unit of distance away from Jupiter.
there is a great difference in the starting and ending PE in the system.
there is also an interesting trend near the beginning of the journey wherein the PE in the system jumps to a value that isnt again reached until we are more than halfway through the trip, then falls off quickly before eventually climbing up to its maximal level.

NB. I used an arbitrary distance measure such that there are 50 units of distance between earth and jupiter.

[givememyleg]

Can you also build a flux capacitor?

[grnydrowave2]

Can you also build a flux capacitor?

Pfft. That's easy. Finding a power source for 1.2 million jiggawatts is the hard part.

[XTR1000]

...i didn´t read all reply´s, but lisa simpson built a perpetuum mobile years ago.....


...*concerned Homer*: Look Marge, Lisa´s crazy Machine ´s getting faster and faster....

[Lukie]

Can you also build a flux capacitor?

Pfft. That's easy. Finding a power source for 1.2 million jiggawatts is the hard part.

umm first, it's not jiggawatts you moron.

2nd, LIGHTNING STRIKES THE CLOCK TOWER AT 10:04 PM, NEXT SATURDAY NIGHT!

[a500lbgorilla]

...i didn´t read all reply´s, but lisa simpson built a perpetuum mobile years ago.....


...*concerned Homer*: Look Marge, Lisa´s crazy Machine ´s getting faster and faster....

Lisa, in this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics!

[Lukie]

hey zach, how's the motion machine coming along?

[midas06]

^ Too rich to slum with us nowadays

[sandstorm]

sorry xianti, but this needed to be bumped. how's it going prozach?

[grnydrowave2]

He's already patented his machine and made millions. It runs on razor blades and Linkin Park tapes.

[flomo]

where is prozack? haven't seen him in a month ---> computer must be dead
ake and proZZ must be on holiday together

[a500lbgorilla]

He's already patented his machine and made millions. It runs on razor blades and Linkin Park tapes.

I just about fell out of my seat laughing.

[Lukie]

lol, who's going to be in charge of making sure this thread never dies?

[sandstorm]

lol, who's going to be in charge of making sure this thread never dies?

[Lukie]

haha, gotcha.

[ProZachNation]

Bump for Lukie!

[Lukie]

Excellent!

Prozach, come pick me up in your private jet, please?

I'd reimburse you for fuel, but it doesn't use any! ha!

[ProZachNation]

I sprinkle diamonds on everything eats so my dookie twinkles bitch!


The jet doesnt need any normal fuel it runs off of the tears of emo kids, emo tears are very clean burning.

[givememyleg]

I forgot about this... do you have the prototype yet? Time travel? Anything cool to play with?

[Warpe]

REVEALED!!!: Prozach's perpetual motion machine ------>

[gabe]

I sprinkle diamonds on everything eats so my dookie twinkles bitch!

YOU A BALLA, BABY

[sandstorm]

seriously, how's it going?

[freechus9]

This thread made me a lot stupider.

[Warpe]

This thread made me a lot stupider.

isn't that theoretically impossible?

[freechus9]

Haha.

[Miffs_mom]

this is standard

[ProZachNation]

REVEALED!!!: Prozach's perpetual motion machine ------>

I wish my arm gives out after like 3 hours, maybe I should get a robot arm?

[thenonsequitur]

I just read this whole thread.

[a500lbgorilla]

DOES IT EVER STOP GOING!?

[bigred]

I named my new sramjet Tyrese.

[Warpe]

I've invented the perpetual post.

Click here:

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...hlight=#383862

[bode]

I just read this whole thread and wasted an hour of my life that i will never get back.

FYP